Donovan is reprehensible

[Ozzie Nelson]

My poorly put out thought is that apparently she can afford to just sit out whereas I can't. In general I'm just tired of athletes who think rules and contracts don't apply to them. She signed a contract now play. Ask for a trade, but don't hold them hostage. Back to my Eli comment. He should be happy to be drafted into the NFL but instead refuses to play for San Diego. It's that kind of stuff that turns me off.

Why can't he choose who he wants to play for? As for contracts, well, do coaches ever leave a team/contract to go elsewhere?

 

[01Neaggrad02]

I can't do it in my work place and she shouldn't be able to do it there. You can ask for a trade, but you play your best until it happens.

If you do not like your job, or your boss you can quit and find another job elsewhere. Lets say you are a nurse, you hate the hospital you are at... you quit and instead of working for Hartford Hospital you work at St. Francis. You still have a chance to do the job you love.

Tina can't quit her job with the Connecticut Sun. She is forced to play. She cannot quit and then sign with the Liberty. This is in no way, shape, or form anything similar to your work place. Also if a player ask for a trade, why would you keep them, or resist that trade?

 

[Ozzie Nelson]

Won a WNBA championship, beating Connecticut? Won a gold medal as head coach? Have we forgotten about that?

Every coach has years of success and years of less success.

One year, without Asjha Jones on that team from the beginning, and then the injuries, is too small a sample to just get rid of a coach that they thought was capable of taking the team higher.

Now if she fails to develop over the course of this season the talent she has been given and the team doesn't progress, then it's a different matter.

To me, Kelsey Bone is the key component. She is coming off a Euro League championship in which she had a very good season. Donovan got her rep as a post coach; let's see.

Thanks for that. Sorry to say, I do not see her as a coach who has command of her team.

 

[PacoSwede]

Sometimes it feels like I am. In reality I'm slightly above indetured servitude, but not by much.

So ... because some people aren't in your situation, you despise them. Why don't you blame yourself for your situation, or at least despise those who apparently have your fate in their hands? Why take it out on those who are able to avoid your sorry state? Why do people always displace the blame?

 

[k9fanatic]

My poorly put out thought is that apparently she can afford to just sit out whereas I can't. In general I'm just tired of athletes who think rules and contracts don't apply to them. She signed a contract now play. Ask for a trade, but don't hold them hostage. Back to my Eli comment. He should be happy to be drafted into the NFL but instead refuses to play for San Diego. It's that kind of stuff that turns me off.

Keep in mind that all the "information" has come from the Sun. I doubt Donovan and company have gone out of their way to portray the situation in a fair and impartial manner. Maybe it's best to wait to hear Tina's side before casting aspersions.

I'm thinking that maybe one of Tina's conditions was the absence of Donovan, which the Sun obviously did not meet.

 

[Waquoit]

I can't figure out what Donovan has done to earn and keep her job...I must be missing something.

She was hired by a GM who won't/can't admit a huge mistake.

 

[UcMiami]

My poorly put out thought is that apparently she can afford to just sit out whereas I can't. In general I'm just tired of athletes who think rules and contracts don't apply to them. She signed a contract now play. Ask for a trade, but don't hold them hostage. Back to my Eli comment. He should be happy to be drafted into the NFL but instead refuses to play for San Diego. It's that kind of stuff that turns me off.

Problem is she is not actually under contract - she played out her rookie contract and is now a 'restricted' free agent. As such, if she just signed a contract with NY the Sun could match and bring her back. What she said is ... I will not sign a contract to play this year unless you trade my rights. And while there is some glory playing in the W, the majority of the money any player makes is made by playing overseas. And there are no other team athletes that in order to make decent money have to play two seasons every year. These are world class athletes that have maybe a ten year window before they need to find a new career and none of them are making silly money. And they live the life of journeymen - four months here, 8 month in some foreign city, but most of their life in hotel rooms. Geno makes more than any off them, getting to live a life in one place year around, and with a career that he can keep as long as he wants, and walk away when he wants. All of these athletes are one second away from a career ending injury and 80% of them are one signing away from being unemployed and a few years away from being unemployable.

 

[DishNSwish]

What seems to be overlooked is Tina Charles is a member of the player's union, who collectively bargained this deal that allows restricted free agency vs unrestricted vs cored players.

You get the benefits of the union, you pay the consequences of being in the union.

She doesn't want the consequences, which include honoring your contract in Connecticut if they are to match the deal she signs elsewhere. All she can do is threaten to withhold service, which she has done.

She is far from alone, and she will be joining one of the originals to force her way out of town, Cappie Pondexter.

You really can't compare a collectively bargained contract to you or me or anyone else not in that union.

Example, if a doctor wants to leave St. Francis or Hartford Hospital as mentioned above, they may have a non-compete that allows them to practice in another state but not Connecticut.

 

[Waquoit]

...They're young, but they will be fun to watch and have dynamic personalities.

Reminds me of the year Mike T. cut loose a bunch and the Sun had players like Le'Coe Willingham, Jen Derevjanik, Candice Futrell and some point guard named Whalen...

"Fun to watch" are words used by losing franchises to try to sell tickets. But you know what's really fun to watch? Your team winning. I guess you're in the biz so I imagine carrying some water is good for business. But to continue talking about how players "didn't want to be here" without adding insight on why these players felt that way is kinda lame. And so is ignoring the badmouthing from the Sun on their way out the door.

And you are comparing "players like Le'Coe Willingham, Jen Derevjanik" to an MVP? Really? And can you honestly call trading Whalen for Charles "cutting loose"?

 

[meyers7]

Sometimes it feels like I am. In reality I'm slightly above indetured servitude, but not by much.

You gotta look for a new job. (I know, I know, it ain't easy.)

 

[DishNSwish]

"Fun to watch" are words used by losing franchises to try to sell tickets. But you know what's really fun to watch? Your team winning. I guess you're in the biz so I imagine carrying some water is good for business. But to continue talking about how players "didn't want to be here" without adding insight on why these players felt that way is kinda lame. And so is ignoring the badmouthing from the Sun on their way out the door.

And you are comparing "players like Le'Coe Willingham, Jen Derevjanik" to an MVP? Really? And can you honestly call trading Whalen for Charles "cutting loose"?

Listen, my last words because I don't like where this is going and I certainly don't appreciate the insinuations made towards me..

I was a season ticket holder for the Connecticut Sun well before I began covering the team. My daughter, wife and I LOVED Pee Wee Johnson and those teams. But they got stagnant and change was needed. We LOVED the enthusiasm and hustle of the young players that cared about being in Connecticut and cared about having the opportunity to play in front of passionate fans.

I don't just see things in Husky Blue and white, I see them in cream and orange, as in WNBA ball colors. My complaint last year about the Sun was not only weren't they good, they were BORING to watch. No enthusiasm, no excitement, just going through the motions. That's why I enjoyed Mistie Bass so much, she gave it all, all the time.

So yes, I am saying that fun to watch is important and caring about being there manifests itself in the approach. It is a BIG part of the fan experience that makes the WNBA enjoyable.

Regarding WHY the players not wanting to be here, honestly, is irrelevant to the conversation. Whether they hate Donovan, love Thibault, don't like playing in a casino, don't like the fact you have to drive a half hour to get anywhere from out there, or if they don't like the questions the media asks, THEY DON'T WANT TO BE THERE and it shows in their approach to the game and their approach to the fans.

I actually like the fact the Sun said she demanded a trade or she'd sit out. Why should they lie or cover it up?

Where did I say Whalen was cut loose by the way? That was a fair trade that benefited both teams.

By the way, I've never claimed Donovan or Sun management is innocent in this whole thing either. It takes two to tango.

 

[meyers7]

What seems to be overlooked is Tina Charles is a member of the player's union, who collectively bargained this deal that allows restricted free agency vs unrestricted vs cored players.

You get the benefits of the union, you pay the consequences of being in the union.

She doesn't want the consequences, which include honoring your contract in Connecticut if they are to match the deal she signs elsewhere. All she can do is threaten to withhold service, which she has done.

Yes, she was willing to pay the consequences. She was willing to sit out as opposed to signing a "new" contract with the Sun. She honored her contract. She just didn't want a new one with them.

The Sun was smart in trading her rights. And getting something for them.

 

[DishNSwish]

Yes, she was willing to pay the consequences. She was willing to sit out as opposed to signing a "new" contract with the Sun. She honored her contract. She just didn't want a new one with them.

The Sun was smart in trading her rights. And getting something for them.

EXACTLY!

 

[Waquoit]

I don't just see things in Husky Blue and white, I see them in cream and orange, as in WNBA ball colors
.
Where did I say Whalen was cut loose by the way? That was a fair trade that benefited both teams.

FWIW, this isn't a UConn issue in my mind. Where Charles went to college is irrelevant. This is about running a franchise into the ground. I was a big Thibault fan.

Going back, I read "Reminds me of the year Mike T. cut loose a bunch and the Sun had players like Le'Coe Willingham, Jen Derevjanik, Candice Futrell and some point guard named Whalen" incorrectly. My bad.

 

[Fairfield_1st]

So ... because some people aren't in your situation, you despise them. Why don't you blame yourself for your situation, or at least despise those who apparently have your fate in their hands? Why take it out on those who are able to avoid your sorry state? Why do people always displace the blame?

Paco, that was just meant as a comical reply to someone else, but thanks for chiming in. Just to reply, I blamed nobody. I just said I don't like when athletes threaten things like sitting out or refusing to play. That's it.

 

[Fairfield_1st]

Why can't he choose who he wants to play for? As for contracts, well, do coaches ever leave a team/contract to go elsewhere?

They can choose in free agency, but not before the draft. I think you go where you're drafted. I don't like when coaches do it either, unless they have clauses where they can buy their freedom.

 

[Fairfield_1st]

Problem is she is not actually under contract - she played out her rookie contract and is now a 'restricted' free agent. As such, if she just signed a contract with NY the Sun could match and bring her back. What she said is ... I will not sign a contract to play this year unless you trade my rights.

Thanks for the info. The Courant, from what I read, made it sound to me like she was refusing to play. I got the impressions she was under contract. I won't even pretend to understand the levels of free agency in any of the pro sports.

 

[UcMiami]

What seems to be overlooked is Tina Charles is a member of the player's union, who collectively bargained this deal that allows restricted free agency vs unrestricted vs cored players.

You get the benefits of the union, you pay the consequences of being in the union.

She doesn't want the consequences, which include honoring your contract in Connecticut if they are to match the deal she signs elsewhere. All she can do is threaten to withhold service, which she has done.

She is far from alone, and she will be joining one of the originals to force her way out of town, Cappie Pondexter.

You really can't compare a collectively bargained contract to you or me or anyone else not in that union.

Example, if a doctor wants to leave St. Francis or Hartford Hospital as mentioned above, they may have a non-compete that allows them to practice in another state but not Connecticut.

I really like your work and enjoy the comments here as well - a good perspective. I just have a small quibble here ...
I agree there are two things - contract and collective bargaining agreement and two sets of rules related to each. But the collective bargaining agreement does actually cover Tina's situation by making the rules of restricted free agency specific, as do other leagues collective bargaining agreements. A team whose restricted free agent player is not signed to a contract retains the rights to that player for one year. The player has the right to not sign any contract and sit out that year. I am sure there was back and forth in the negotiations of that collective bargaining agreement over what happened after that year and the players negotiated a removal of all restrictions. That does give players more power in Tina's situation and she chose to exercise that power. the cost to her would have been not unsubstantial in lost salary, the cost to the Sun would have been not unsubstantial in the ultimate loss of her talent.
The compromise for both was a trade.
I think Tina by not publicly saying 'I will only play in NY' treated the Sun more fairly than a lot of players have done in other sports by keeping that hidden. The Sun were in a better position re the Liberty because Bill didn't know there was no competition. Giving up the compensation he did does not make a whole lot of sense if he could wait one season and get Tina for free and have his two draft picks and Bone still around.

 

[pinotbear]

Thanks for the info. The Courant, from what I read, made it sound to me like she was refusing to play. I got the impressions she was under contract. I won't even pretend to understand the levels of free agency in any of the pro sports.

I would just add to this, to emphasize a point that UCMiami included in their post. For many WNBA players, particularly the "stars" like Charles, the WNBA is their second job, and a poor second job at that. They make much, much more money overseas, and the big stars have all kinds of perks included. Your point, Fairfield, about how they don't need their WNBA job like you need yours, is acccurate. Charles would do just fine, if she sat out what amounts to her "summer job". I think comparing a WNBA job to a "summer" or "seasonal" secondary job, as opposed to a "full-time/primary" job is pretty accurate: and, if you or I detested that secondary employer, for good reason or bad, we'd sit out too, if we could swing it. She can.

 

[DishNSwish]

I really like your work and enjoy the comments here as well - a good perspective. I just have a small quibble here ...
I agree there are two things - contract and collective bargaining agreement and two sets of rules related to each. But the collective bargaining agreement does actually cover Tina's situation by making the rules of restricted free agency specific, as do other leagues collective bargaining agreements. A team whose restricted free agent player is not signed to a contract retains the rights to that player for one year. The player has the right to not sign any contract and sit out that year. I am sure there was back and forth in the negotiations of that collective bargaining agreement over what happened after that year and the players negotiated a removal of all restrictions. That does give players more power in Tina's situation and she chose to exercise that power. the cost to her would have been not unsubstantial in lost salary, the cost to the Sun would have been not unsubstantial in the ultimate loss of her talent.
The compromise for both was a trade.
I think Tina by not publicly saying 'I will only play in NY' treated the Sun more fairly than a lot of players have done in other sports by keeping that hidden. The Sun were in a better position re the Liberty because Bill didn't know there was no competition. Giving up the compensation he did does not make a whole lot of sense if he could wait one season and get Tina for free and have his two draft picks and Bone still around.

Thank you for the kind words, and your post is really good; with one possible exception.

What makes you think that Charles (and Lawson) didn't make it clear to people they wanted to be traded (and to specific places)?

People in the DiMauro thread are jumping on the Sun statement they were blind-sided like it was a ridiculous statement, that even they knew Tina wanted out.

Don't your think she told people (and Lawson too)?

That's the one thing I'm saying about the deals, was considering past I want to be traded deals, I thought the Sun brought in some good return.

 

[UcMiami]

Thank you for the kind words, and your post is really good; with one possible exception.

What makes you think that Charles (and Lawson) didn't make it clear to people they wanted to be traded (and to specific places)?

People in the DiMauro thread are jumping on the Sun statement they were blind-sided like it was a ridiculous statement, that even they knew Tina wanted out.

Don't your think she told people (and Lawson too)?

That's the one thing I'm saying about the deals, was considering past I want to be traded deals, I thought the Sun brought in some good return.

I obviously have no idea of what was known by whom prior to the trade, but ... I think a GM as good as Bill would drive a harder bargain for a player that he knew would only play in NY. If that was in fact her stance and she had made it known to NY, the Sun would have been over a barrel and would have been lucky to get this years 4th pick and Bone or maybe Bone and next years #1. I think he thought he was bidding against someone like Mike in DC. (And for all we know he was.)
I think Douglas to IN was more clearly 'one team' and the Sun didn't get as much (even taking into account the MVP.)

 

[msf22b]

According to china.org (2004) Teams were required to max out the monthly salaries to foreign players at $60,000 per month.

We're a decade out from that and with guaranteed endorsements. TV deals, money under the table, special allowances…there's no telling how much a Maya Moore (for example) can make.

It's important and an honor to play in the WNBA, improves your market value, undoubtedly the fiercest competition, but the pay is one step up from reprehensible, especially as compared to what the men earn. Certainly you can't argue with ownership who don't want to lose a bundle but that would never happen on the men's side.

Tina's is merely making a business decision that suits her needs. She in unhappy (for whatever reason, not really germane to the argument) and is in a position to sit out if her requirements aren't met. She's not the first to make such a proclamation; D sat when she was exhausted after the OLympics, the Aussie gal on Tulsa took a season off, etc etc.

With the WNBA current level of pay, you're going to have a growing number of star players taking all or most of that season off, especially if foreign opportunities escalate and pay scales abroad continue to increase.

The next step in this saga is for a superstar to announce, she'll never play in the WNBA for that pittance, rather get more years out of her body in China, Russia, or wherever.

 

[Icebear]

At that point a big enough sample will exist that other options need to be explored.

Some would say that that sample already exists. At Seton Hall and her first year at the Sun. I trust Tina's heart and will given the totality of her work at UCONN, charitable causes, and for the Sun prior to last year.

 

[Ozzie Nelson]

Paco, that was just meant as a comical reply to someone else, but thanks for chiming in. Just to reply, I blamed nobody. I just said I don't like when athletes threaten things like sitting out or refusing to play. That's it.

Some would say that that sample already exists. At Seton Hall and her first year at the Sun. I trust Tina's heart and will given the totality of her work a UCONN, charitably, and for the Sun prior to last year.

I agree Ice, and especially like your use of the word trust.

 

[Woof 101]

I really like Chiney and hope Dovovan doesn't screw up her game, too, or waste her talents. I see Donovan as a coach whom the game has passed by. Someone who is fine when she has the majority of talent that she can send out on the court as at Seattle or the Olympic team but who really doesn't have real answers in a world where competition is tough.

Agree...

I could quit, but I can't just sit out. And who among us can afford to just not work for any extended period? Not me.

Understand that the WNBA is second fiddle to the better players. The staff had to fly to Russia not NY to court Tina, as this is where the better players actually make their living. I am glad she may have woke the franchise up...

 

[wire chief]

It's important to understand that Tina earned the right to do as she did. Between UConn and the Sun she turned herself into a superstar.
Now some mere mortals may feel a green-eyed monster about it, but that's your failing, not Tina's.

 

[ctkaiser]

Lot's of info on Tina's story, why did Kara leave ?

Bingo! That's the point. If it was just Kara or just Tina it wouldn't point to a problem. Plus with Aisha out all season Tina was playing without any help at forward. Sun basically threw away the season. Their roster last year was embarrassing.

 

[SWHuskyFan]

Tina Charles is a once in a decade or so player in the WNBA for any given team. My guess is that it takes a while for the Sun to recover from losing her. Maybe they get lucky and one of the draft picks turns into a star.

They should of fixed her issue before it got to this point. If that means firing the coach, I think you do that. This has happened in the NBA lots if times. It's simply much easier to replace a coach than a league MVP.

 

[CL82]

The Courant says that Charles' agent told them that she wanted a trade or she would sit out. I don't know anything about Donovan and it seems obvious that her and Charles aren't getting along, but to me there's no excuse for a player making those kinds of demands. That's the main reason I HATE Eli Manning. I can't do it in my work place and she shouldn't be able to do it there. You can ask for a trade, but you play your best until it happens.

Keep in mind the WNBA is kind of a part time job relative to the money that can be made by top players in Europe. Tina would not have the first player to decide to forego a season. Playing for about half the cash that you'd make it Europe in a hostile environment, might give anyone pause.

JMHO.

 

[AllAmerRedHeads]

while i think Mike was over the top, i do not like players pulling where they will play or they will sit. this includes nfl and the Mannings and anyone else.

20 years ago, we had only the WBA in the US. a league that was considerbly weaker than even the NWBL.

While Tina and the likes can do what they want, we are fortunate to have any league here in the US.

many women that came before them didnt have such opportunities and it ended at high school or college if they were lucky.

I didnt like it when Cappie did this a few years ago, and just because a player played for my favorite college team and is an awesome player, doesnt make it any better.

The WNBA is still fragile and with Stern retiring could be even more so. Situations like this imo do not make it any easier for the league.

i know i am in a very small minority on this board, but womens basketball at all levels is what is most important to me and no player is more important than the team. Tina included.

I do have concerns on current coaching and direction and have voiced them to the point where i even got a strong email from the Sun front office, but on this, I think the Sun front office did a pretty good job in making the best of a situation.

May it work out to both the Sun and Liberty specifically and the league as a whole.