Do we need OFFENSE from the post to win it all?

[Jaydumo20]

There was a side discussion during the game about whether or not we can win given our lack of traditional Offensive post play. @hoophuskee @donalddoowop among others.

My opinion is we DONT need it to win (we won by our biggest margin last night without it) but It's a huge help. Heres why:
Post play can:
-Open up the perimeter by drawing d's down
-Create typically high %shots
-Create dbl teams down low
- slow the game down in the half court creating more opportunities especially if you have a player who can pass out of the post.
Etc

This team is built different and it's not the Wnba/Nba where all teams are theoretically equal and most teams have former AA's at the 5.

We have 3-4 very high %scorers. When they shoot like that, this IS their game. It's not an anomaly.

Paige and Sarah do Create double teams and open things up. They do get to the lane and score inside. Plus they are the best player and freshman in the country, respectively. We also have the best 3rd and 4th options in fudd and shade.

That means a lot.

Final statement: Post play is super valuable. We don't have it- yet we win, and are co-favorites to win it all. If we NEED post play to win, and we beat one or both SCs coming up, then the NEED argument just dissolves into theory.

If we NEED post play to win=we don't have it now, does this mean it's impossible to win it all this year? I bet differently.

 

[GoUconn7961]

You might not need a high percentage shooter in the post to win, but you do need a solid defender who can stay out of foul trouble, and a relentless rebounder.

 

[Jaydumo20]

You might not need a high percentage shooter in the post to win, but you do need a solid defender who can stay out of foul trouble, and a relentless rebounder.

Yes. Defense yes. I think we have that. Ice was brilliant last night and we can hold other bigs to a minimum.
This discussion is for offense. I'll change the post to reflect that. Thx

 

[oldude]

I like our 2-headed monster of Ice/Jana in the post. Last night was a really interesting game. The bulk of the scoring was done by 3 players. But everyone contributed in one way or another. Kaitlyn lead the team with 8 assists. KK played ferocious defense against ISU’s pg’s. Morgan provided some defense and rebounding off the bench.

Most importantly, against perhaps the most difficult offensive scoring post in the country, Ice and Jana battled all game, holding Crooks to only 22 points. Ice played ferocious defense, chalking up 4 steals in the process. Jana lead the team with 9 rebounds, reversing a recent trend where UConn had been getting outrebounded by opponents.

So the answer to the question posed by this thread is “Yes, We do need post play to win it all.” But that does not necessarily mean that we need post scoring. As last night demonstrated, UConn has 3 “atomic dogs” that can score, and that should become 4 once Azzi is back in the lineup.

 

[Bone Dog]

One distinction that might help: back to the basket vs face to the basket play. This maps (almost) onto the difference between low-post vs high-post play. Geno has always preferred bigs who can play high as well as low post. On offense, a high post, face to the basket scorer opens up the paint while a low post, back to the basket scorer clogs it up.

In high school, both Ice and Jana showed good high post skills. Jana has yet to rebuild this portion of her game since the injury. Ice could take more elbow jumpers. Jana wants to drive to the lane but hasn’t recovered this ability yet, at least not at a D1 level.

If I think about recent post players, I see various examples of these skills. Aaliyah had the full package by her last two season, good low post moves, an excellent elbow jumper and could drive the lane and the baseline really well. Liv was a tremendous high post passer and had pretty good low post moves. Phee had tremendous low post moves, a great midrange shooting game and was a brilliant passer. By her last two seasons, Gabby had a similar arsenal. Stewie was a tremendous low post scorer, but her midrange and perimeter game may have been even better. When I think of Stewie, the phrase ‘back to the basket’ isn’t what mainly comes to mind.

Another thing UConn’s recent posts were good at is transition scoring. Liv and Aaliyah ran the floor really well and could finish at the rim on the break. We haven’t seen much of this from Ice and Jana, but they move well enough to add this to their game. Having a big who can run the floor can be intimidating to opposing teams.

The upshot of all this is that back to the basket game is only one part of a good big’s arsenal. For reference, it’s almost all Audi has, besides setting good screens at the top of the key. Geno wants more than this from his post players. Ice and Jana will develop this broader game in the coming months and years.

Signs that they’re developing well in Geno’s scheme would be

1. More reliable low post moves
2. Reliable midrange shooting
3. Driving the lane and the baseline
4. Running the court in transition
5. Finishing on the break

All of this will come. I’m willing to watch patiently.

PS: oops, I forgot Dorka. I’m sure everyone can fill in the blanks for her.

 

[GoUconn7961]

Yes. Defense yes. I think we have that. Ice was brilliant last night and we can hold other bigs to a minimum.
This discussion is for offense. I'll change the post to reflect that. Thx

I'm confused. Didn't I reference shooting in my first sentence?

 

[WiseWillie]

One distinction that might help: back to the basket vs face to the basket play. This maps (almost) onto the difference between low-post vs high-post play. Geno has always preferred bigs who can play high as well as low post. On offense, a high post, face to the basket scorer opens up the paint while a low post, back to the basket scorer clogs it up.

In high school, both Ice and Jana showed good high post skills. Jana has yet to rebuild this portion of her game since the injury. Ice could take more elbow jumpers. Jana wants to drive to the lane but hasn’t recovered this ability yet, at least not at a D1 level.

If I think about recent post players, I see various examples of these skills. Aaliyah had the full package by her last two season, good low post moves, an excellent elbow jumper and could drive the lane and the baseline really well. Liv was a tremendous high post passer and had pretty good low post moves. Phee had tremendous low post moves, a great midrange shooting game and was a brilliant passer. By her last two seasons, Gabby had a similar arsenal. Stewie was a tremendous low post scorer, but her midrange and perimeter game may have been even better. When I think of Stewie, the phrase ‘back to the basket’ isn’t what mainly comes to mind.

Another thing UConn’s recent posts were good at is transition scoring. Liv and Aaliyah ran the floor really well and could finish at the rim on the break. We haven’t seen much of this from Ice and Jana, but they move well enough to add this to their game. Having a big who can run the floor can be intimidating to opposing teams.

The upshot of all this is that back to the basket game is only one part of a good big’s arsenal. For reference, it’s almost all Audi has, besides setting good screens at the top of the key. Geno wants more than this from his post players. Ice and Jana will develop this broader game in the coming months and years.

Signs that they’re developing well in Geno’s scheme would be

1. More reliable low post moves
2. Reliable midrange shooting
3. Driving the lane and the baseline
4. Running the court in transition
5. Finishing on the break

All of this will come. I’m willing to watch patiently.

PS: oops, I forgot Dorka. I’m sure everyone can fill in the blanks for her.

Valid points, BD, and nice summary. You remain an astute observer and tend to get a lot of Boneyard conversation starters. Keep it coming.

 

[Jaydumo20]

I like our 2-headed monster of Ice/Jana in the post. Last night was a really interesting game. The bulk of the scoring was done by 3 players. But everyone contributed in one way or another. Kaitlyn lead the team with 8 assists. KK played ferocious defense against ISU’s pg’s. Morgan provided some defense and rebounding off the bench.

Most importantly, against perhaps the most difficult offensive scoring post in the country, Ice and Jana battled all game, holding Crooks to only 22 points. Ice played ferocious defense, chalking up 4 steals in the process. Jana lead the team with 9 rebounds, reversing a recent trend where UConn had been getting outrebounded by opponents.

So the answer to the question posed by this thread is “Yes, We do need post play to win it all.” But that does not necessarily mean that we need post scoring. As last night demonstrated, UConn has 3 “atomic dogs” that can score, and that should become 4 once Azzi is back in the lineup.

I agree with you 100% ..

 

[caseyb7]

There was a side discussion during the game about whether or not we can win given our lack of traditional Offensive post play. @hoophuskee @donalddoowop among others.

My opinion is we DONT need it to win (we won by our biggest margin last night without it) but It's a huge help. Heres why:
Post play can:
-Open up the perimeter by drawing d's down
-Create typically high %shots
-Create dbl teams down low
- slow the game down in the half court creating more opportunities especially if you have a player who can pass out of the post.
Etc

This team is built different and it's not the Wnba/Nba where all teams are theoretically equal and most teams have former AA's at the 5.

We have 3-4 very high %scorers. When they shoot like that, this IS their game. It's not an anomaly.

Paige and Sarah do Create double teams and open things up. They do get to the lane and score inside. Plus they are the best player and freshman in the country, respectively. We also have the best 3rd and 4th options in fudd and shade.

That means a lot.

Final statement: Post play is super valuable. We don't have it- yet we win, and are co-favorites to win it all. If we NEED post play to win, and we beat one or both SCs coming up, then the NEED argument just dissolves into theory.

If we NEED post play to win=we don't have it now, does this mean it's impossible to win it all this year? I bet differently.

This is a deficiency that needs to be treated.

Evident again last night, but not damaging as Ash/Paige/SS took apart IA St. I was fortunate to be there sitting with other UConn folks who've watched for a while and the lack of production was a common topic. Having as many points as fouls is a not a recipe for success.

Yes - Ice/Jana play aspects of their positions well & they are troopers playing through contact and anxiety...

BUT - without post production we are only very good team, not a FF team (IMHO).

We limited Audi Crooks to 22 (and she is a pleasure to watch BTW), but against some teams our match-up won't be as effective without strengthening this component of our game. I concur with the many BYers who are increasingly concerned about this as the season gains maturity and we see a pattern.

Love everyone, but I don't see much progress here.

 

[Jaydumo20]

I'm confused. Didn't I reference shooting in my first sentence?

Yes. And you mentioned a greater need for defense. Your post was great and accurate. since it was the first one I didn't want the discussion to turn to the need for defensive post play (which we're fine at) . As you know most posters (not you) will see one word in the title and then not read any subsequent posts. No harm no foul.

 

[Jaydumo20]

This is a deficiency that needs to be treated.

Evident again last night, but not damaging as Ash/Paige/SS took apart IA St. I was fortunate to be there sitting with other UConn folks who've watched for a while and the lack of production was a common topic. Having as many points as fouls is a not a recipe for success.

Yes - Ice/Jana play aspects of their positions well & they are troopers playing through contact and anxiety...

BUT - without post production we are only very good team, not a FF team (IMHO).

We limited Audi Crooks to 22 (and she is a pleasure to watch BTW), but against some teams our match-up won't be as effective without strengthening this component of our game. I concur with the many BYers who are increasingly concerned about this as the season gains maturity and we see a pattern.

Love everyone, but I don't see much progress here.

What would good post production numbers look like to you?

 

[jeff30189]

You need the THREAT of offense from your post players at a minimum. That may be in the form of offensive rebounding and putbacks, or even defensive rebounding to start the break. They have to be an integral PART of the offense.

In time both Ice and Jana should try to emulate Sarah (who is not a primary post player, but she could be if she wasn't such an all around gifted point power forward). Learn how to get position down low (i.e. Crooks), develop 1-2 reliable post moves (i.e. Crooks), develop a step back jumper (i.e. Crooks) and get better at physically defending without fouling. Jana in particular should be unstoppable if she uses that hook shot more often and learns how to get position.

NEXT year it will be incredibly important that one (or both) of them is a credible nightly double-double once Paige, Kaitlynn and Azzi are gone. That's alot of stats to absorb by players who are not currently a go-to option.

 

[Bigboote]

I agree with all that's been said, but will add one more thing: any team that wants to win it all needs the THREAT of offense from the post. When South Carolina won it all a couple of years ago, Aliyah Boston averaged something like 12 or 13 points a game. She was able to score, but their offense wasn't designed around that. As has been pointed out, having some inside presence frees up the outside shot.

Strong is scoring a lot inside, and Ice is a very good passing big, so having Ice in high post and Sarah in low post works just fine as far as I'm concerned.

For all the talk of no post presence, last night was the first game in which UConn didn't outscore the opponent in the paint. I think that worked out fine, though.

 

[Jaydumo20]

One distinction that might help: back to the basket vs face to the basket play. This maps (almost) onto the difference between low-post vs high-post play. Geno has always preferred bigs who can play high as well as low post. On offense, a high post, face to the basket scorer opens up the paint while a low post, back to the basket scorer clogs it up.

In high school, both Ice and Jana showed good high post skills. Jana has yet to rebuild this portion of her game since the injury. Ice could take more elbow jumpers. Jana wants to drive to the lane but hasn’t recovered this ability yet, at least not at a D1 level.

If I think about recent post players, I see various examples of these skills. Aaliyah had the full package by her last two season, good low post moves, an excellent elbow jumper and could drive the lane and the baseline really well. Liv was a tremendous high post passer and had pretty good low post moves. Phee had tremendous low post moves, a great midrange shooting game and was a brilliant passer. By her last two seasons, Gabby had a similar arsenal. Stewie was a tremendous low post scorer, but her midrange and perimeter game may have been even better. When I think of Stewie, the phrase ‘back to the basket’ isn’t what mainly comes to mind.

Another thing UConn’s recent posts were good at is transition scoring. Liv and Aaliyah ran the floor really well and could finish at the rim on the break. We haven’t seen much of this from Ice and Jana, but they move well enough to add this to their game. Having a big who can run the floor can be intimidating to opposing teams.

The upshot of all this is that back to the basket game is only one part of a good big’s arsenal. For reference, it’s almost all Audi has, besides setting good screens at the top of the key. Geno wants more than this from his post players. Ice and Jana will develop this broader game in the coming months and years.

Signs that they’re developing well in Geno’s scheme would be

1. More reliable low post moves
2. Reliable midrange shooting
3. Driving the lane and the baseline
4. Running the court in transition
5. Finishing on the break

All of this will come. I’m willing to watch patiently.

PS: oops, I forgot Dorka. I’m sure everyone can fill in the blanks for her.

Very accurate. Great post!
we didn't have a sarah strong or this ashlynn with liv or edwards. But I guess we'll see when we play SCs

 

[Bone Dog]

In 2013, Stewie and Stef averaged 27 pts between them, and Morgan and Kiah added another 9 pts for a total of 36 frontcourt points.
In 2014, Stewie and Stef combined for 33 pts and Morgan and Kiah added another 12 pts for a total of 45 frontcourt points.
In 2015, Stewie and Kiah combined for 23 pts and Morgan and Gabby added another 22 for a total of 45 frontcourt points
In 2016, Stewie and Natalie combined for 25 pts and Phee, Gabby and Morgan added another 30 pts for a total of 55 frontcourt pts.

These are the teams that won 4 NCs in a row.

 

[cohenzone]

Yes. Defense yes. I think we have that. Ice was brilliant last night and we can hold other bigs to a minimum.
This discussion is for offense. I'll change the post to reflect that. Thx

I think that obviously reliable post scoring would be a plus, make us harder to defend and harder to beat. But I lean more to the side that post defense and rebounding is more important to this team. Jana clearly has to calm down when she shoots lay ups. Ice right now has more scoring skills. But in a lot of ways, Sarah is a post scorer on this team.

As last night showed. there is nothing in basketball that makes a team look good like a high shooting percentage

 

[packwrap]

We sometimes have terminology issues as to what is a big, what is a post etc.

I am with Bonedog, that it is both the forward - traditional 4, and the center - traditional 5. With Geno's offense it also mostly doesn't matter, as all of the frontcourt players are trained to play both spots anyway.

This game was great to see this, as we saw each of Sarah, Ice and Jana defend Crooks. We also had all 3 of our bigs all over on offense from perimeter to down in the post.

Watching Crooks, she really expanded her game over the summer too. She shot the 3, set picks at the perimeter, passed out of double teams, and even now has a fade away. Work in progress, but Geno would approve. She is also playing with great joy; easy to root for.

Back on topic, to evaluate our bigs we should included Sarah, and look at how Sarah, Ice and Jana perform together vs opponents.

Of course, we can always decide to be specific and say how did Strong do v Brown, or the Ice/Jana combo v Crooks, but I still think it's more useful to look at the group.

Sarah is a revelation, and both Ice and Jana continue to show improvement. They are really not far off becoming good.

So yes we can win with our overall frontcourt just holding their own vs a good opponent. Assuming Aubrey joins the group as a forward, the group also becomes 1 notch better.

We get another good matchup now with U$C to keep tracking progress.

 

[Bone Dog]

Back on topic, to evaluate our bigs we should included Sarah, and look at how Sarah, Ice and Jana perform together vs opponents.

I agree completely. So far this season, Sarah, Jana and Ice are averaging 29 ppg, 17.3 for Sarah, 6 for Jana and 5.5 for Ice.

For comparison, over an entire season, Stewie’s freshman year the frontcourt averaged 36 ppg.

It’s anyone’s guess what the current trio will average over an entire season. But I suspect it won’t be far off Stevie’s first year.

My conclusion is that all the handwringing over post scoring is over the top and certainly premature. Let’s give the girls a chance to gel as a team before we judge them.

 

[cohenzone]

We sometimes have terminology issues as to what is a big, what is a post etc.

I am with Bonedog, that it is both the forward - traditional 4, and the center - traditional 5. With Geno's offense it also mostly doesn't matter, as all of the frontcourt players are trained to play both spots anyway.

This game was great to see this, as we saw each of Sarah, Ice and Jana defend Crooks. We also had all 3 of our bigs all over on offense from perimeter to down in the post.

Watching Crooks, she really expanded her game over the summer too. She shot the 3, set picks at the perimeter, passed out of double teams, and even now has a fade away. Work in progress, but Geno would approve. She is also playing with great joy; easy to root for.

Back on topic, to evaluate our bigs we should included Sarah, and look at how Sarah, Ice and Jana perform together vs opponents.

Of course, we can always decide to be specific and say how did Strong do v Brown, or the Ice/Jana combo v Crooks, but I still think it's more useful to look at the group.

Sarah is a revelation, and both Ice and Jana continue to show improvement. They are really not far off becoming good.

So yes we can win with our overall frontcourt just holding their own vs a good opponent. Assuming Aubrey joins the group as a forward, the group also becomes 1 notch better.

We get another good matchup now with U$C to keep tracking progress.

Your comment about Crooks being easy to root Concur 100%. Seems like a happy person.

 

[Bone Dog]

Your comment about Crooks being easy to root Concur 100%. Seems like a happy person.

Me too. I followed her a bit in high school and watched as many games as i could — which isn’t many because Archbishop McGarigle HS is not well represented online. But i managed to see a couple full games and a bunch of highlights clips. What i noticed is how much her teammates looked up to her, relied on her, and rallied around her. She seemed like the heart of that team, and i think she’s brought that same spirit to ISU.

 

[ccwarrior]

You might not need a high percentage shooter in the post to win, but you do need a solid defender who can stay out of foul trouble, and a relentless rebounder.

…and make occasional bunnies.

 

[Zarathustra]

I like our 2-headed monster of Ice/Jana in the post. Last night was a really interesting game. The bulk of the scoring was done by 3 players. But everyone contributed in one way or another. Kaitlyn lead the team with 8 assists. KK played ferocious defense against ISU’s pg’s. Morgan provided some defense and rebounding off the bench.

Most importantly, against perhaps the most difficult offensive scoring post in the country, Ice and Jana battled all game, holding Crooks to only 22 points. Ice played ferocious defense, chalking up 4 steals in the process. Jana lead the team with 9 rebounds, reversing a recent trend where UConn had been getting outrebounded by opponents.

So the answer to the question posed by this thread is “Yes, We do need post play to win it all.” But that does not necessarily mean that we need post scoring. As last night demonstrated, UConn has 3 “atomic dogs” that can score, and that should become 4 once Azzi is back in the lineup.

I like the idea of Morgan providing extra available fouls and respite for
Jana and ICE. WITH YANNA not available until next year, I think that
Aubrey 6'1" and Morgan 6'2" will be critical for multiple defensive
minutes.

 

[uconnever]

No, we don’t, we need defense, rebounding, energy and toughness. Look like you belong and against UCLA, Notre Dame, South Carolina, USC and Texas, we need them to neutralize their front courts. I may have overlooked some team but those are the ones we need them to step up their game. Those are the teams that can beat us if we don’t get enough from our front court. Not points but they can’t let their posts just have an easy night scoring or offensive rebounding. And stop with the silly fouls because that takes them out of the game mentally before they can get into a rhythm. We shall see.

 

[JoePgh]

You might not need a high percentage shooter in the post to win, but you do need a solid defender who can stay out of foul trouble, and a relentless rebounder.

I think this is the key. A championship team certainly needs to clear its defensive boards, I.e., limit opponents' offensive rebounds and second-chance points. But scoring can come from any position, and if the majority of scoring comes from the perimeter, that can work just fine. For historical reference, consider UConn's two championships in 2003 and 2004, which were built around Diana's scoring with some help from Ann Strother, Barbara Turner, and Maria Conlon shooting 3's. Jessica Moore provided rebounding, post defense, and occasional scoring, but was not a major point producer for either of those teams.

The 2000 championship team had 6-5 Kelly Schumacher in the center, and while she was a good defender and blocked a lot of shots, she was not a major offensive force. And she usually didn't play many more minutes than either Ice or Jana.

The undefeated 2002 team had an amazing starting 5, but with no starter taller than 6-2.

I know that some people will say that the game has changed in the last 20 years, but how many of you think that the 2002 team couldn't win an NC this year? I certainly think that they could. I also think that Sarah Strong could fit right into that team, taking on a role similar to Asjha Jones or Tamika Williams, but with more varied scoring than either of them.

This year is unusual, because we have Ice and Jana sharing the center position (similar to Samson Johnson and Tarris Reed on the men's team). Ice provides defense and passing, while Jana provides rebounding strength and a putback threat. That's all the skill that is needed, but unfortunately not all at the same time.

 

[MSGRET]

Jana is a work in progress, this is her first season of college basketball due to her sitting out for over a year. International play and college play are two different animals when it comes to physicality and fouls. Last night there were two calls on her down in the paint, one of them, in my opinion was a bad call. Jana was standing straight up and the player jumped into her and Jana's arms came down after she was hit. The official called Jana for the foul and it should have been called an offensive foul, this isn't the first time this has happened this season. She also gets fouled a lot when she is shooting down low but gets very few calls.