COVID Vaccine Thread, the Sequel

[HuskyHawk]

How many of those cases have there been? Is it enough to impact health systems? Just asking.

Also, the argument of non getting vaccinated, getting sick and hospitalized and taking valuable resources away from others can go for a bunch of lifestyle reasons- obesity, smoking to name a few. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, I'm saying there are plenty of other health choices people have that take little effort or modification which would reduce strain on resources for transplants, cancer patients, etc and we don't shame them as a group.

I'll go on a limb and suggest we are well past the point of hospitals being strained by non-vaccinated covid patients.

It's largely a non thing. It may mostly be false positives from high cycle threshold PCR tests. CDC has been called out for not providing clarity on this by members of Congress, they worry about any "you don't need the vaccine" messaging. They have not tested the vaccine on people who had Covid before. There is no indication that it is necessary for people who had Covid. Lasting immunity found after recovery from COVID-19 | National Institutes of Health (NIH) Certainly those folks should not be getting the vaccine before others. A study in Denmark showed that the elderly who had Covid may benefit, as their immunity declines faster.

 

[ZenConn]

How many of those cases have there been? Is it enough to impact health systems? Just asking.

Also, the argument of non getting vaccinated, getting sick and hospitalized and taking valuable resources away from others can go for a bunch of lifestyle reasons- obesity, smoking to name a few. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, I'm saying there are plenty of other health choices people have that take little effort or modification which would reduce strain on resources for transplants, cancer patients, etc and we don't shame them as a group.

I'll go on a limb and suggest we are well past the point of hospitals being strained by non-vaccinated covid patients.

Yeah it's not a great deal of cases but it is a possibility - meaning just because someone had it doesn't mean they should ignore getting the vaccine.

Yeah I agree with you with the lifestyle choices being a burden on our health care system as well. I just don't see getting a vaccine to fight a pandemic as a lifestyle choice. I think it should be viewed in the same manner as MMR, Polio, etc vaccines.

 

[Chin Diesel]

Yeah it's not a great deal of cases but it is a possibility - meaning just because someone had it doesn't mean they should ignore getting the vaccine.

Yeah I agree with you with the lifestyle choices being a burden on our health care system as well. I just don't see getting a vaccine to fight a pandemic as a lifestyle choice. I think it should be viewed in the same manner as MMR, Polio, etc vaccines.

I think we are on the right path. Plenty of high risk people have the opportunity and a large majority are getting the vaccine. Whether or not it's enough for herd immunity immediately is up for debate. Maybe we have sub-herds. Not total herd immunity but immunity within higher risk groups.

Seems like coronaviruses severity peter out over time. Fully authorized vaccines will help out and I suspect once they become regular vice emergency authorizations, percentages will go up. We already live with several corornaviruses and I suspect we will see new ones pop up about every 5-10 years.

Human Coronavirus Types | CDC

How Many Coronavirus Strains are There? Novel Coronavirus Types and More (webmd.com)

 

[JustbrewitMan]

It's largely a non thing. It may mostly be false positives from high cycle threshold PCR tests. CDC has been called out for not providing clarity on this by members of Congress, they worry about any "you don't need the vaccine" messaging. They have not tested the vaccine on people who had Covid before. There is no indication that it is necessary for people who had Covid. Lasting immunity found after recovery from COVID-19 | National Institutes of Health (NIH) Certainly those folks should not be getting the vaccine before others. A study in Denmark showed that the elderly who had Covid may benefit, as their immunity declines faster.

The other benefit recently reported (cant find the link at the moment, in a hurry), is that people with previous COVID early in pandemic don't mount a strong immune response / have minimial neutralizing antibodies to newer variants. Getting the vaccine expands their antibody neutralizing activity/overall immune response to newer variants that are much more prevalent now.

 

[Deepster]

Holy cow. I got my second dose of Pfizer yesterday at 3. I haven’t gotten off the couch today. I called in sick for the first time in maybe 25 years. I feel like I got hit by a truck.

 

[HuskyHawk]

The other benefit recently reported (cant find the link at the moment, in a hurry), is that people with previous COVID early in pandemic don't mount a strong immune response / have minimial neutralizing antibodies to newer variants. Getting the vaccine expands their antibody neutralizing activity/overall immune response to newer variants that are much more prevalent now.

Maybe. Maybe not. Correlates of protection from SARS-CoV-2 infection - The Lancet But in any event, they should be deprioritized. Back of the line. That's my only point really. Some folks are waiting to get a shot. I can certainly see them perhaps just getting the new 3rd shot booster for the variants that they are testing rather than the full regimen.

 

[Dooch]

Wife and I got the 2nd Pfizer shots yesterday around 3 PM. So far, nothing but a sore arm (which was the same after the 1st shot)

Had to get a Covid test this morning (having minor surgery on Friday and they require a negative test) - hoping it doesn't show positive due to the vaccine

 

[jostar1]

Holy cow. I got my second dose of Pfizer yesterday at 3. I haven’t gotten off the couch today. I called in sick for the first time in maybe 25 years. I feel like I got hit by a truck.

I felt like that after the first shot of Pfizer. It's hard to explain to people. It's not that you are tired; it's more like you're immobilized.

 

[Kathy]

Holy cow. I got my second dose of Pfizer yesterday at 3. I haven’t gotten off the couch today. I called in sick for the first time in maybe 25 years. I feel like I got hit by a truck.

That's how I felt. Fever?

 

[JustbrewitMan]

Maybe. Maybe not. Correlates of protection from SARS-CoV-2 infection - The Lancet But in any event, they should be deprioritized. Back of the line. That's my only point really. Some folks are waiting to get a shot. I can certainly see them perhaps just getting the new 3rd shot booster for the variants that they are testing rather than the full regimen.

Generally agree with what you're saying. But we will very soon have surplus vaccine in most parts of the U.S., so that becomes much less important.

The editorial comment you linked to by Florian Krammer (great follow on Twitter for COVID stuff, BTW, as you likely know) raises the issue about prior infection & immunity vs. newer variants as an "unknown" that the SIREN study didn't/couldn't answer. A different study (I'll find the link and followup) provides strong scientific data that prior COVID does not guarantee strong response to some newer variants that are circulating and that vaccination of people with prior COVID broadens and boosts response to new variants...


I think there's also enough evidence that has been produced now to show that patients with definitive prior COVID only need one shot of Pfizer or Moderna to get similar post-vax antibody/Tcell response, so I think you'll see CDC/ACIP change recs fairly soon to reflect that, which will also "free up" more vaccine.

Take care!

 

[JustbrewitMan]

I think we are on the right path. Plenty of high risk people have the opportunity and a large majority are getting the vaccine. Whether or not it's enough for herd immunity immediately is up for debate. Maybe we have sub-herds. Not total herd immunity but immunity within higher risk groups.

Seems like coronaviruses severity peter out over time. Fully authorized vaccines will help out and I suspect once they become regular vice emergency authorizations, percentages will go up. We already live with several corornaviruses and I suspect we will see new ones pop up about every 5-10 years.

Human Coronavirus Types | CDC

How Many Coronavirus Strains are There? Novel Coronavirus Types and More (webmd.com)

I can tell you that the vaccine effect is real...and real impressive. We are sooo close to getting close to pre-COVID normal. Just need to hang in there being smart with meeting outdoors whenever possible, ventilating indoors, masking, distancing, limiting large group gatherings, and getting vaccines in as many arms as possible.

The demographics of our inpatient COVID patients here in CT are dramatically different compared to even just 3-4 weeks ago--not only are there much fewer of them, but now they are pretty much all unvaccinated <55-60ish year-olds with much less severe disease overall. But still sick enough to be admitted for inpatient care for at least a couple days or so. Still some occasional >60 year olds who either didn't get the vaccine yet, are only 1 dose in, or likely didn't mount a strong response to the full vaccine series.

Once the % vaccinated gets higher in the 16-40 year old demographic (main reservoir of spread at this point), I expect overall cases in CT to plummet. Should start seeing it by mid-/late-May, is my best guess.

 

[Deepster]

I felt like that after the first shot of Pfizer. It's hard to explain to people. It's not that you are tired; it's more like you're immobilized.

Good explanation. I literally haven't moved 20 feet in the last 4 hours.

 

[CL82]

Got my first Pfizer today. Heard all your stories about arm pain so I got it in the buttocks. The Walgreens pharmacist thought it was weird when I dropped my pants.

Not sure if serious.

 

[CL82]

They don’t know yet. Apparently the vaccines provide good protection against the UK variant. Not clear yet about the South African one.

I'd be interested in a BY'r with a medical/bio background comment on this but Pfizer and Moderna are mRNA based. Essentially the vaccine is for the infection mechanism (the spikes) rather than the virus itself. That makes me wonder if it is more effective against variants. J&J and AZ are DNA based. But take that with a grain of salt. I have no expertise on this stuff.

 

[Zionn]

Both shots - Moderna......no issues. Thankfully.

 

[ClifSpliffy]

I can tell you that the vaccine effect is real...and real impressive. We are sooo close to getting close to pre-COVID normal. Just need to hang in there being smart with meeting outdoors whenever possible, ventilating indoors, masking, distancing, limiting large group gatherings, and getting vaccines in as many arms as possible.

The demographics of our inpatient COVID patients here in CT are dramatically different compared to even just 3-4 weeks ago--not only are there much fewer of them, but now they are pretty much all unvaccinated <55-60ish year-olds with much less severe disease overall. But still sick enough to be admitted for inpatient care for at least a couple days or so. Still some occasional >60 year olds who either didn't get the vaccine yet, are only 1 dose in, or likely didn't mount a strong response to the full vaccine series.

Once the % vaccinated gets higher in the 16-40 year old demographic (main reservoir of spread at this point), I expect overall cases in CT to plummet. Should start seeing it by mid-/late-May, is my best guess.

guess all you want.
thus far, i've had, and recorded here, including the introduction (1st week of january, 2020) of the whole bug thing, 4 distinct sars2coronavirus impacts:
fall 19 - the oral/dental whammy. member my 'tooth extraction' musings? data has now proven it.
spring 20 - the pulmonary whammy. member my chest tightness and transient low grade fever musings?
fall 20 - the alimentary/digestive whammy. member my 'discarded corona casing' musings? and
spring 21 - the sinus/olfactory whammy. specifically, i noted here in feb that 'v 4.0, the brit version' was gearing up. as usual, crickets. it was like someone took a marker and drew a circle on my mug from above the browline down to below the lower lip and back up, and hung an 'area under repair' sign.
so, no, previous bouts (injection?) did not preclude variated future versions. mebbe they lessened the impact of the mutations, but i don't know.
you made fun, as many do here, of the whole chip implant thing (q? idiot hillbillies? etc), as if reasonable people of normal lives can't have their own questions aboot these new realities. highly insulting. of course, there is no grand government plan to place tracking microchips in the population, but that does not mean normal folks of good will, with no ax to grind, can't be curious aboot
the facts in evidence on these questions.
have sum (here's the commonly known version);
Pentagon develops microchip that detects COVID under your skin (nypost.com)
and before the usual mockers here fire off the usual 'bbut it's the NY Post!' well, there are many other sources as well. heck, it even took fa'evah for me to confirm my 'extraction explosion' suspicions.
now, back to complete news blackout on the novavax thing. they're also currently cooking up a new jab, ie seasonal flu and sars2coronavirus in one. i don't have an opinion on that.
with two, you get eggroll.
oops, forgot to mention one of my favorite opeepo freakouts, including by some genius leading lights here, and back around the expected post week 48 ramp up of the bug, ie december. 'our healthcare delivery system might collapse!' no, it didn't, and no, it won't.

 

[Chin Diesel]

Good explanation. I literally haven't moved 20 feet in the last 4 hours.

For clarification, your immobility in the past 4 hours is different than your normal daily routine? And you consider this to be bad, correct? I mean I may have moved 20 feet but it's not guarantee and I'm plenty okay with that.

 

[Excalibur]

I don't think it is helpful to give people a hard time for not getting the vaccine. Enough people will get it, or get sick, that herd immunity will occur in the fairly near future. I'm not sure what I would have done if I was in my 20s right now.

My older son got it in January because he is an athletic trainer and they made him. My younger son was going to get it, but just got COVID - so he might not now. He might not need it anyway now.

My view on this is that once every adult has had the OPPORTUNITY to get the vaccine - they will or they won't, and then life needs to go back to normal. People that got the vaccine have virtually eliminated their chance of dying from it. And if an unvaccinated person dies from it? Personal choice.

The issue is that the more people that choose to develop "natural" immunity, the greater the chance that we end up with a form of the virus that makes the vaccines ineffective. Mutations only happen when there is a host.

So yes, we go back to normal like you say (if not before), but each person that refuses increases the risk that "normal" doesn't last.

 

[HuskyHawk]

I'd be interested in a BY'r with a medical/bio background comment on this but Pfizer and Moderna are mRNA based. Essentially the vaccine is for the infection mechanism (the spikes) rather than the virus itself. That makes me wonder if it is more effective against variants. J&J and AZ are DNA based. But take that with a grain of salt. I have no expertise on this stuff.

@JustbrewitMan would be your best resource here. My understanding is that the Adenovirus carries DNA, which is converted into mRNA by your cells, which drives the protein and immune response. The mRNA platform kind of skips a step (and mRNA is fragile, hence the freezing). Not sure it works "better", but they can develop and make changes to the vaccine faster. It can be adapted rapidly for the variants.

How mRNA and adenovirus vaccines work - Futurity

 

[ClifSpliffy]

The issue is that the more people that choose to develop "natural" immunity, the greater the chance that we end up with a form of the virus that makes the vaccines ineffective. Mutations only happen when there is a host.

So yes, we go back to normal like you say (if not before), but each person that refuses increases the risk that "normal" doesn't last.

hehe, 'normal.' if by 'normal' u mean pre-fall '19, u is dreaming. that world is gone.
good, bad, or indifferent, that world is seeulater, byebye. u forget our little discussion on ur spring '20 trip to hongkong? i didn't.
the real issue now, also offered by me a year or more ago, and also highly mocked here, is Pandemic 2: the mental health crisis. on behalf of the millions and zillions of us not living on stool softeners, thanks. thanks a lot.
nice to see that not everyone has lost their friggin minds:
'Gianforte says in a statement that he encourages all Montana residents to get vaccinated but that it is “entirely voluntary.”
The Latest: Governor bans vaccine passports for Montana (apnews.com)

 

[NYConnMan]

It is still so interesting that the worst reactions I am aware of were women. My 32 yo son had second Moderna Monday- slight fever/chills yesterday for a couple hours, tired - back to normal this morning

Women have stronger immune systems than men in general so this isn't entirely unexpected.

 

[NYConnMan]

I don't think it is helpful to give people a hard time for not getting the vaccine. Enough people will get it, or get sick, that herd immunity will occur in the fairly near future. I'm not sure what I would have done if I was in my 20s right now.

My older son got it in January because he is an athletic trainer and they made him. My younger son was going to get it, but just got COVID - so he might not now. He might not need it anyway now.

My view on this is that once every adult has had the OPPORTUNITY to get the vaccine - they will or they won't, and then life needs to go back to normal. People that got the vaccine have virtually eliminated their chance of dying from it. And if an unvaccinated person dies from it? Personal choice.

Some people can't choose to get vaccinated due to severe allergies to components or injectables in general. This idea would conveniently ignore them. Because of that, people choosing not to be vaccinated are still putting others at risk.

 

[J187Money]

Some people can't choose to get vaccinated due to severe allergies to components or injectables in general. This idea would conveniently ignore them. Because of that, people choosing not to be vaccinated are still putting others at risk.

Yes, but that's what happens in a free society. People smoke, speed and do all sorts of things that put others at risk every single day. Zero risk is unattainable.

I'm not suggesting that people "shouldn't" get vaccinated - but I'm a realist. And if you are someone that can't be vaccinated and is at risk for COVID - that's a tough situation to be in, but that's just the reality that we live in. You just have to hope enough people get sick or vaccinated and herd immunity happens sooner rather than later. But COVID and its derivations will be here in some form forever.

 

[JustbrewitMan]

@JustbrewitMan would be your best resource here. My understanding is that the Adenovirus carries DNA, which is converted into mRNA by your cells, which drives the protein and immune response. The mRNA platform kind of skips a step (and mRNA is fragile, hence the freezing). Not sure it works "better", but they can develop and make changes to the vaccine faster. It can be adapted rapidly for the variants.

How mRNA and adenovirus vaccines work - Futurity

@CL82

Yep, what HH said. Both the mRNA & DNA provide the instructions to our cells to ultimately manufacture the SARS-CoV-2 spike protein, which our immune system responds to.

The mRNA platform has significant advantages as a vaccine platform that I think we are seeing with the COVID pandemic:
1--Quick and efficient adaptability for variants that emerge. There will probably be boosters for variants available by the end of the year (or at least data submitted to the FDA for assessment by EOY).
2-- Also, is a "cleaner", less-potentially allergic/severe adverse effect-provoking vaccine that cuts out the "middleman" of a virus vector to deliver the mRNA or DNA message into our cells for protein production. It is highly likely that something with either the virus vector or the DNA (in the AZ and JJJ vaccines) triggers the rare autoimmune reaction that appears to be happening with these rare clotting events. No concerns (so far) with mRNA ones.

The hardest thing with getting the mRNA vaccines to be useful was finding the best way to coat and protect the fragile mRNA long enough so that it didnt decompose before being injected and finding its way into our cells. Lots of experiments with different lipids, cholesterols, etc. But all of them that have been selected are pretty non-immunogenic. So its pretty rare to see anaphylactic reactions and there are very few people with pre-existing allergies that could/will have a high risk of reaction to the current mRNA adjunct ingredients.

I expect/hope for them to improve our abilities to make adaptable and more effective annual influenza vaccinations.

 

[Conndog]

Women have stronger immune systems than men in general so this isn't entirely unexpected.

Reminds me of the joke: Why do men generally die earlier/younger their wives? Because they want to.