Containing the edge on D

[upstater]

Really? Wow. Upstater, I think you're talking out your butt. Our defensive ends, OLB's and pretty much the entire defense for that matter, played very, very well on Saturday night.

Can you at least admit that ashiru was on a TE, and not a tackle?

I think you don't understand what the discussion is about. That's what I think. I brought up the play as an example, not to discuss who lost assignment on that play. I well acknowledged it was Brown. And yeah, I already acknowledged it was TE several times. Read my posts. Frankly, I was not too concerned about the opposition. My bigger problem is the ends on the outside run. If you think what's happening is just great, that's your opinion. Shocking though that you can't remember all the outside runs this season.

 

[FfldCntyFan]

You got a certain play in mind? Let's look at it and see what we can figure out.

Start with Toissant's TD run and work backwards. It happened at least a dozen times and UM attacked it (successfully) seven or eight of those times).

 

[Carl Spackler]

Start with Toissant's TD run and work backwards. It happened at least a dozen times and UM attacked it (successfully) seven or eight of those times).

The same TD run we've been talking about?????? The play went for a TD b/c it was a short field and we had a key missed assignment in the defensive backfield, not at the line. Or are you talking about the 35 yrd run when we were in a 3 man down 8 up formation on 3rd and 10? What was imbalanced about that one? How did he manage to run through our defense on that one? Do you want to count the missed tackles from everybody?

Look, the film is there, tell me which plays you are talking about. It's one thing to get on a coaching staff for problems they make, and there are plenty, but it's another to be making stuff up.

 

[Carl Spackler]

Absolutely, I agree with that. I originally was talking about a repeated problem throughout the season (as FFC mentioned in the original post). and Carl asked for an example. I don't see our DEs boxing in runners enough.

Boxing in runners? Turning shoulders? (from another post)

I'm really trying to figure out your thought process man. I'm trying. I have a simple qeustion, it's a yes or no, that will at least help me get started.

Do you know what 2-gap run defense vs. 1-gap run defense means?

 

[upstater]

Boxing in runners? Turning shoulders? (from another post)

I'm really trying to figure out your thought process man. I'm trying. I have a simple qeustion, it's a yes or no, that will at least help me get started.

Do you know what 2-gap run defense vs. 1-gap run defense means?

It doesn't even take an ex football player to know these things (we never talked about these things when I played football, but for the pros this is talked about all the time). It's not technical, and it's basically as simple as the terminology itself. The gaps on either side the O. lineman. Simple.

Let me ask you this: is there a difference in your mind between setting the edge and edge containment?

Go to 2:10 and 2:20 of the video below and look at #95. Especially the second play when the RB is coming to the outside. Watch how the end squares his shoulders and waits.

 

[Carl Spackler]

We are on different planets here. Yes, there is a difference between playing 2 gap defense against the run, and 1 gap defense against the run. HUGE difference in how "set the edge". When you are 2-gap, you are responsible for making a play on either side of the blocker you match up with, and when you are in a 1-gap control, you are responsible, for only one side of the blocker you are matched up with. It's up to the LB's and DBs to make their fits into the gaps from there

defensive lineman, are run first defenders. I think, and 'setting and edge' is a term that we are clearly not anywhere close to having a common understanding.

I'm still looking for plays (against Michigan) that describe how our "unbalanced" defensive line caused us so much difficulty as alleged was such a problem so many times (at least 7 or 8 ?) a d dozen?

There is a lot to get on these coaches about, but it's not fair to make stuff up.

Our defense has made HUGE strides in improvement over three weeks.

 

[upstater]

We are on different planets here. Yes, there is a difference between playing 2 gap defense against the run, and 1 gap defense against the run. HUGE difference in how "set the edge". When you are 2-gap, you are responsible for making a play on either side of the blocker you match up with, and when you are in a 1-gap control, you are responsible, for only one side of the blocker you are matched up with. It's up to the LB's and DBs to make their fits into the gaps from there

So, how did I say anything different? That's what I wrote.

regardless, look at the second play I mention in the video above. Look at #95. He has the runner bracketed, which sends him up the middle.

 

[Carl Spackler]

So, how did I say anything different? That's what I wrote.

regardless, look at the second play I mention in the video above. Look at #95. He has the runner bracketed, which sends him up the middle.

Ok - lets try this again - which play specifically do you want to look at the one starting at 2:08? Let's start there. Saints are in a strong side right, flanker/slot left single back set with the QB under center. Patriots are in a 3 man down DL with 8 players up. It's tough to see the line splits and alignment from this camera angle, which is why I like endzone seats. #95 is lined up wide (9 tech) and most definitely is responsible for the outside shoulder of the LT and is in a good pass rush position.

At 2:13, the New Orleans line has driven the Patriots line stronside, and the LT is engaged head to head with #95 after a step back with his left foot and step forward with his right, which automatically opens up the B gap (b/w LG and LT). the running play is clearly designed to go INSIDE the tackle. THere is a LB there to fill that gap, and if the back hits the hole, he's got to either make that LB miss, or run over him.

At 2:14, the DE has shed his block and collapsed the hole. THe RB doesn't hit the hole that was there for less than a second, and instead, gets in behind the wall of offensive line that went strong side angle with their blocks, and rides their backs and blocks forward for about 3 yards, while the DE has collapsed and gets on his back.

The DE did a good job of shedding his block and closing the hole, but the OL was strong enough, to push the patriots D back enough for the RB to gain yardage anyway.

THe play at 2:10 BTW - was a pass rush, and run D, which is what was brought up here earlier - but anyway...

It's not hard to "set and edge" when an offensive run play is designed to go between the tackles.

Let's look at this one in your clip. 1:40. Now you can see the line splits. #95 is way the out there in what many would call a 9-technique, and he's in a two point stance. No tight end that side. Flanker. He gets a double team block on the snap from the flanker and tackle. He still manages to keep outside gap leverage, through the double team and force the runner back inside. Great play by the DE.

This is 1-gap control play. He's got to maintain outside leverage, primary responsibility, if he can shed the block and make the tackle inside - great, responsibility is "setting the edge"

Now - go back to your highlight clip from espn - 2 minute mark. freeze it pre-snap 1:55.
http://scores.espn.go.com/ncf/recap?gameId=332640041

Stephen is head to head on the center, what some would call a zero-tech. He is most definitely 2-gap control run defense in the middle of the D. When you do this, when you have a nose tackle that is capable of doing this, it gives you a ton of flexibility in what you can do on defense, but you MUST have LB"s and DB's that are going to be able to make the right choices on their gap assignments as the play unfolds. Campenni is either in a 5 or 7 tech on the tackle, can't tell from the camera angle. But it looks like a 7, which would mean that the LG is uncovered, and makes sense b/c we have two players at the second LB level, that can fill those gaps b/w Stephen and Campenni on the snap, shoud the play go between the tackles.

Ashiru is lined up on the edge of the LOS and has a TE, and a flanker opposite him on the offensive formation. Unlike the play at 1:40 of the saints/pats game, he doesn't get the doulbe team. THe flanker releases to get a block down field.

At 1:58, ashiru is engaged with his block, and the flanker has engaged his block, the back now has the ball in his hand, and is running laterally with his eyes down field, looking for the gap to hit. Ashiru has driven the TE back a step or two, the flanker is locked in this block a little bit down field with Tymeer Brown, who has gone with an inside position, and the OL has collapsed on stephen and campenni - much like the saints OL collapsed on the pats D Line in the other play. But the michigan play, was not designed to go inside, had it been, the RB would have done the same thing that the Saints RB did, and ride his blockers forward for a couple yards. This play was designed to go outside. So we've got a player that is filling in to that triangle created by the engaged blocks of the OL on our DL, their TE on our OLB and their flanker on Brown. We had a LB sitting in that triangle waiting to fill either gap that the RB would take around Ashiru's engaged block Our DB, Brown, who took the wrong angle, sheds his block, to the inside, but at the same time seals our own defender who was in place to fill the gaps, and leaves the outside edge unsealed and the RB runs around the pileup to the endzone. It's a 15 yard gain, for a TD, had it been farther out in the field, it probably goes for an 18-20 yard gain at most, b/c we had other players that had closed down, but it was short field.

Does all of that make sense? Or am I full of ?

I don't see how this is a scheme problem, we had anything Gardner might do pressured and contained on one side, and we were set up perfectly to stop the run, as long as everyone maintains their gap assignments. We had one player fail to do that, and the play goes for a big gain. THat's football. It happens.

 

[Carl Spackler]

From what I saw we schemed ourselves out of solid position about 60% of the time (fortunately it only led to about 30% of the running plays that attacked that weakness).

I don't understand the imbalanced defensive fronts and this is forcing an OLB to take on an OT, basically asking a 225-235 lb defender to play the role of DE.

Start with Toissant's TD run and work backwards. It happened at least a dozen times and UM attacked it (successfully) seven or eight of those times).

I'm still waiting for the plays to demonstrate this.

 

[upstater]

Ok - lets try this again - which play specifically do you want to look at the one starting at 2:08? Let's start there. Saints are in a strong side right, flanker/slot left single back set with the QB under center. Patriots are in a 3 man down DL with 8 players up. It's tough to see the line splits and alignment from this camera angle, which is why I like endzone seats. #95 is lined up wide (9 tech) and most definitely is responsible for the outside shoulder of the LT and is in a good pass rush position.

At 2:13, the New Orleans line has driven the Patriots line stronside, and the LT is engaged head to head with #95 after a step back with his left foot and step forward with his right, which automatically opens up the B gap (b/w LG and LT). the running play is clearly designed to go INSIDE the tackle. THere is a LB there to fill that gap, and if the back hits the hole, he's got to either make that LB miss, or run over him.

At 2:14, the DE has shed his block and collapsed the hole. THe RB doesn't hit the hole that was there for less than a second, and instead, gets in behind the wall of offensive line that went strong side angle with their blocks, and rides their backs and blocks forward for about 3 yards, while the DE has collapsed and gets on his back.

The DE did a good job of shedding his block and closing the hole, but the OL was strong enough, to push the patriots D back enough for the RB to gain yardage anyway.

THe play at 2:10 BTW - was a pass rush, and run D, which is what was brought up here earlier - but anyway...

It's not hard to "set and edge" when an offensive run play is designed to go between the tackles.

Let's look at this one in your clip. 1:40. Now you can see the line splits. #95 is way the out there in what many would call a 9-technique, and he's in a two point stance. No tight end that side. Flanker. He gets a double team block on the snap from the flanker and tackle. He still manages to keep outside gap leverage, through the double team and force the runner back inside. Great play by the DE.

This is 1-gap control play. He's got to maintain outside leverage, primary responsibility, if he can shed the block and make the tackle inside - great, responsibility is "setting the edge"

Now - go back to your highlight clip from espn - 2 minute mark. freeze it pre-snap 1:55.
http://scores.espn.go.com/ncf/recap?gameId=332640041

Stephen is head to head on the center, what some would call a zero-tech. He is most definitely 2-gap control run defense in the middle of the D. When you do this, when you have a nose tackle that is capable of doing this, it gives you a ton of flexibility in what you can do on defense, but you MUST have LB"s and DB's that are going to be able to make the right choices on their gap assignments as the play unfolds. Campenni is either in a 5 or 7 tech on the tackle, can't tell from the camera angle. But it looks like a 7, which would mean that the LG is uncovered, and makes sense b/c we have two players at the second LB level, that can fill those gaps b/w Stephen and Campenni on the snap, shoud the play go between the tackles.

Ashiru is lined up on the edge of the LOS and has a TE, and a flanker opposite him on the offensive formation. Unlike the play at 1:40 of the saints/pats game, he doesn't get the doulbe team. THe flanker releases to get a block down field.

At 1:58, ashiru is engaged with his block, and the flanker has engaged his block, the back now has the ball in his hand, and is running laterally with his eyes down field, looking for the gap to hit. Ashiru has driven the TE back a step or two, the flanker is locked in this block a little bit down field with Tymeer Brown, who has gone with an inside position, and the OL has collapsed on stephen and campenni - much like the saints OL collapsed on the pats D Line in the other play. But the michigan play, was not designed to go inside, had it been, the RB would have done the same thing that the Saints RB did, and ride his blockers forward for a couple yards. This play was designed to go outside. So we've got a player that is filling in to that triangle created by the engaged blocks of the OL on our DL, their TE on our OLB and their flanker on Brown. We had a LB sitting in that triangle waiting to fill either gap that the RB would take around Ashiru's engaged block Our DB, Brown, who took the wrong angle, sheds his block, to the inside, but at the same time seals our own defender who was in place to fill the gaps, and leaves the outside edge unsealed and the RB runs around the pileup to the endzone. It's a 15 yard gain, for a TD, had it been farther out in the field, it probably goes for an 18-20 yard gain at most, b/c we had other players that had closed down, but it was short field.

Does all of that make sense? Or am I full of ?

I don't see how this is a scheme problem, we had anything Gardner might do pressured and contained on one side, and we were set up perfectly to stop the run, as long as everyone maintains their gap assignments. We had one player fail to do that, and the play goes for a big gain. THat's football. It happens.

Sorry to make you go through all that work. That's why, in the post you just responded to, I emphasized the second play at 2:20, which is NOT going up the middle until the RB decides to cut it up.

But, as for your long analysis, I agree with you that Brown missed his responsibilities. I never said that he didn't. What I'm saying is that the down lineman is letting the RB get to the perimeter with relative ease. I'm not focusing on what went wrong on this particular play. Instead, I'm giving one example of many of how our down lineman is not doing a good enough job of setting the edge.

Look what I found:


Now, go to 8:40 top of the screen to see Wilman setting the edge right. Turns Brown up the middle, he even makes the tackle as the OL tries to push him off his spot.

Now look at minute 47. look at the down lineman. Gets washed out inside. OL sealed him. You can argue the OLB had contain, but the RB has 35-40 yards of space outside with no one else out there.

 

[Carl Spackler]

No need to be sorry. I enjoy talking about football like this. I'm not necessarily right. The video is there though, and it's better than the unsubstantiated opinion crap that gets spewed, and I really do want to try to understand what you say you are seeing.

At 8:40 in that clip, you are absolutely correct, Willman played that run exactly the way a DE should against a LT on a inside designed run. He got into his block, shed it, and collapsed the hole, much like #95 for the pats did on that play discussed earlier.

One of the things, that it is important here, is to understand the footwork of the OT. My interpretation of what you are seeing as a DE "getting their shoulders square", is much more a product of the OT's footwork off the snap in getting their feet moving and set to engage the block, rather than anything the DE is particularly doing to get engaged into the block.

OK at 47. Maryland is in a two back split shotgun set with 2 wideouts and a slot - 5 man OL, nobody covering a tackle in close. WE are in what appears to be a 1 gap control 4-3 front, pretty standard defensive front in football. Our RDE is lined up to maintain outside gap control.

you run the play, and not one, both BOTH backs begin running play side toward our RDE. He's got three linebackers behind him to fill at 47:08, but for some reason (most likely mental error/mistake it appears on first glance, he slides to his left and maintains an inside position keyed on the QB - is this a scheme thing? Maybe - Maybe his job is to lock on to the QB and defend QB run. None of us know the play books or game plans, but the Maryland QB is a threat to run, and the DE looking for that out of this play set, is not unfathmoable to me, because I believe Defensive lineman are run first defenders. The DE gets picked up by an OL that has pulled out of the formation and come around play side at 47:09 the QB has handed the ball off to the back, and our OLB is matched up with the lead blocker, and our MLB is moving locked in on the ball carrier with a clear inside or outside lane around the OLB to take. at 47:11, the flanker receiver has run a pattern inside to pull our Safety out of the play. the outsied receiver is engaged downfield in a block, and lead blocker has done a great job of taking out the OLB, and at the same time blocking Smallwood, who has to hurdle both players to try to keep some kind of line on the ball carrier. Taylor Mack eventually works his block out to the sideline, and TyMeer Brown and Obi M, get back to force it to the sideline.

This could be a screw up by Frank, probably. But had Frank gone down field, and "squared up" the way you like, and had the QB kept the ball, there was a pulling lineman and a back he could have followed up the middle of the field.

THere is a reason why MAryland has averaged 500 yards of offense this season, adn just destroyed West Virginia. This play - IMNSHO, was actually defended well, and it's case of pick your poison, on how you defended it, and the lead blocker made a great block on our OLB, that took both the OLB and MLB out of the play, forcing the DB's to make the stop.

 

[upstater]

No need to be sorry. I enjoy talking about football like this. I'm not necessarily right. The video is there though, and it's better than the unsubstantiated opinion crap that gets spewed, and I really do want to try to understand what you say you are seeing.

At 8:40 in that clip, you are absolutely correct, Willman played that run exactly the way a DE should against a LT on a inside designed run. He got into his block, shed it, and collapsed the hole, much like #95 for the pats did on that play discussed earlier.

One of the things, that it is important here, is to understand the footwork of the OT. My interpretation of what you are seeing as a DE "getting their shoulders square", is much more a product of the OT's footwork off the snap in getting their feet moving and set to engage the block, rather than anything the DE is particularly doing to get engaged into the block.

OK at 47. Maryland is in a two back split shotgun set with 2 wideouts and a slot - 5 man OL, nobody covering a tackle in close. WE are in what appears to be a 1 gap control 4-3 front, pretty standard defensive front in football. Our RDE is lined up to maintain outside gap control.

you run the play, and not one, both BOTH backs begin running play side toward our RDE. He's got three linebackers behind him to fill at 47:08, but for some reason (most likely mental error/mistake it appears on first glance, he slides to his left and maintains an inside position keyed on the QB - is this a scheme thing? Maybe - Maybe his job is to lock on to the QB and defend QB run. None of us know the play books or game plans, but the Maryland QB is a threat to run, and the DE looking for that out of this play set, is not unfathmoable to me, because I believe Defensive lineman are run first defenders. The DE gets picked up by an OL that has pulled out of the formation and come around play side at 47:09 the QB has handed the ball off to the back, and our OLB is matched up with the lead blocker, and our MLB is moving locked in on the ball carrier with a clear inside or outside lane around the OLB to take. at 47:11, the flanker receiver has run a pattern inside to pull our Safety out of the play. the outsied receiver is engaged downfield in a block, and lead blocker has done a great job of taking out the OLB, and at the same time blocking Smallwood, who has to hurdle both players to try to keep some kind of line on the ball carrier. Taylor Mack eventually works his block out to the sideline, and TyMeer Brown and Obi M, get back to force it to the sideline.

This could be a screw up by Frank, probably. But had Frank gone down field, and "squared up" the way you like, and had the QB kept the ball, there was a pulling lineman and a back he could have followed up the middle of the field.

THere is a reason why MAryland has averaged 500 yards of offense this season, adn just destroyed West Virginia. This play - IMNSHO, was actually defended well, and it's case of pick your poison, on how you defended it, and the lead blocker made a great block on our OLB, that took both the OLB and MLB out of the play, forcing the DB's to make the stop.

You obviously know football much better than me. I'm just frustrated seeing 40 yards of open field and looking on helplessly.

 

[Carl Spackler]

You obviously know football much better than me. I'm just frustrated seeing 40 yards of open field and looking on helplessly.

I'm not doing this to puff my chest about football knowledge. For real. I hope you don't think that. Look at the play that you picked out at :47 of that Maryland game. Pause and freeze, and count out the players and where they are moving through the sequence, and try to match it up with what I wrote.

I'm not perfect, I can make mistakes too. But in that play, I'd be willing to bet that it was defended as well we could have within the scheme, and they had a great block that took two of our defenders out of the play, and that's why it went for a long gain.

When you look at what Maryland has done so far this season, in perspective to how our defense played them, I think the results speak for themselves. Maryland is a very good offensive team, with some very good offensive players.

I get frustrated looking at that, because for some reason, Edsall didn't think he could build somethign like that here at UCONN, and in all honesty, Maryland went out and hired a football coach, to assist Edsall within months to help out with things like offense, and recruiting.

 

[upstater]

I'm not doing this to puff my chest about football knowledge. For real. I hope you don't think that. Look at the play that you picked out at :47 of that Maryland game. Pause and freeze, and count out the players and where they are moving through the sequence, and try to match it up with what I wrote.

I'm not perfect, I can make mistakes too. But in that play, I'd be willing to bet that it was defended as well we could have within the scheme, and they had a great block that took two of our defenders out of the play, and that's why it went for a long gain.

When you look at what Maryland has done so far this season, in perspective to how our defense played them, I think the results speak for themselves. Maryland is a very good offensive team, with some very good offensive players.

I get frustrated looking at that, because for some reason, Edsall didn't think he could build somethign like that here at UCONN, and in all honesty, Maryland went out and hired a football coach, to assist Edsall within months to help out with things like offense, and recruiting.

Maryland is showing what happens when you have multiple threats. For years, UConn sent Dixon, Brown, Todman behind the line and churned out yards. In all that time, Lorenzen, Fraser, Bones, McEntee, etc., could not threaten defenses enough. It really is amazing that Brown ran for all those yards given that.

If Orlovsky had played with Brown and say Michael Smith and Kashif Moore, Griffin, UConn would have looked like Maryland.

 

[ktuck911]

Had we put any more points on the board, at any point in the game, and not have such a back breaking turnover, this kind of defensive breakdown still can happen, and usually does at some point during the course of a game, but hopefully it doesn't break your back.

This, especially the part in red... Our ineptitude on offense is a major concern... STILL...

 

[ktuck911]

I'm no Merril Hoge ... but Chris Spielman showed how Ty-Meer Brown got caught inside and failed to contain the edge.

Video can be found here: #mce_temp_url#

In the second pic it's CLEAR as day the RB had NO cut back lane to the middle of the field... our DL got good push on their OL guy into their backfield (the only one in fact), then on the right side OLB Ashiru was locked up with his guy... What the hell was Tymeer doing? the sideline to sideline foot shuffle??? that looks good in practice but he should've been moving lateral full speed (turn to right and get your a** there to make the play on the RB, possible for a loss on the play, 1 or 2 yd gain tops.