Containing the edge on D

[ktuck911]

To me, that's our biggest issue on D. Never saw that a lot on previous years' Defense. This year, it sticks out like a sore thumb... Me thinks once we clean that up our D will be a consistent problem from here on out.

Now, if our offense can build some of the good things they did (using add'l RBs helped... Now Whitmer has to put trust in other receivers and NOT lock in on G. Davis when he's covered by 4 defenders) it'll be a problem for opponents in conference play as well.

 

[FfldCntyFan]

From what I saw we schemed ourselves out of solid position about 60% of the time (fortunately it only led to about 30% of the running plays that attacked that weakness).

I don't understand the imbalanced defensive fronts and this is forcing an OLB to take on an OT, basically asking a 225-235 lb defender to play the role of DE.

 

[SubbaBub]

It's supposed to be complex to confuse the offense. Unfortunately, too many of the young LB's/DB's are missing their assignments.

I agree that it is probably the easiest thing to correct. The D is very fixable.

I will say that I noticed the DL getting off blocks better this week.

 

[Carl Spackler]

From what I saw we schemed ourselves out of solid position about 60% of the time (fortunately it only led to about 30% of the running plays that attacked that weakness).

I don't understand the imbalanced defensive fronts and this is forcing an OLB to take on an OT, basically asking a 225-235 lb defender to play the role of DE.

You got a certain play in mind? Let's look at it and see what we can figure out.

 

[upstater]

It's supposed to be complex to confuse the offense. Unfortunately, too many of the young LB's/DB's are missing their assignments.

I agree that it is probably the easiest thing to correct. The D is very fixable.

I will say that I noticed the DL getting off blocks better this week.

I can't see how Ashiru for instance would be expected to blow up a tackle and set the edge.

 

[Carl Spackler]

The last TD by Touissant would be an example.

Ok - don't have time now, but will look at the espn3 thing later, and tell you what I see. You tell me what you see.

That said, I'm pretty sure that play went to the house, because of a defensive secondary breakdown on the run fit, and I'm pretty sure it was Byron Jones on the corner, that didn't take the right gap to force the run inside, and that the defensive front was fine, and actually got plenty of push off the edge into the backfield from the linebacker on the TE.

Look at it and tell me what you all see.

 

[ktuck911]

The last TD by Touissant would be an example.

This.. that last TD.. Tymeer Brown, for some weird reason didn't contain the outside... He tried to squuuueeeeze himself between the DL and OL engaged in front of him (along with probably a few LBs and a few more of their blockers instead patrolling where he was supposed to on that play.. OUTSIDE...Dude wouldn't have scored on that play...

 

[Carl Spackler]

This.. that last TD.. Tymeer Brown, for some weird reason didn't contain the outside... He tried to squuuueeeeze himself between the DL and OL engaged in front of him (along with probably a few LBs and a few more of their blockers instead patrolling where he was supposed to on that play.. OUTSIDE...Dude wouldn't have scored on that play...

Correct - it was Tymeer and not Byron Jones - Somebody watching!!! YEs!! The defensive front did fine. We had a zero tech over the center, and what looks like a 3tech on the left side of the mich OL (tough to tell from the side angle on camera) and I think it was campenni - campenni got blown up and out of the play, but he ate up those two blockers. The LB (ashiru) was matched up one / one on the TE and drove him into the backfield. The Michigan OL did a good job of taken Campenni and Stephen out of the play and getting push, but the LB"s and DB's had the lanes to fill easily - we had one player take and inside fit, rather than take the outside and the play went to the house.

The reason you run a defense like this - scheme like this - is what's at the top end of the film on the play. A QB like Gardner can roll out and do lots of things. Had he kept the ball on this play and rolled to his right, or even tried to set up anything to his right, he had Jesse Joseph in his face.

we ran stuff like this all night, and it worked most of the time, the reason it was so big here, in this situation, was because of the situation.......bad breakdown on D - at the worst possible time, from one of our best players on D. Things like that happen in a football game, and it's why you need to be more than one dimensional in the things you can do to score points and things on offense. Had we put any more points on the board, at any point in the game, and not have such a back breaking turnover, this kind of defensive breakdown still can happen, and usually does at some point during the course of a game, but hopefully it doesn't break your back.

 

[Carl Spackler]

It was his job to stop the outside run, but Ashiru didn't set the edge either. If he had, the decision to go inside/outside would have been clearer for Brown.

I disagree - go watch again, Ashiru is the last player on the LOS play side, and drives his player 3 yards deep into the backfield, the RB needs to run around them. This run fit problem and tackling problem is on the defensive secondary, not on the scheme at the LOS, which was designed to contain Gardner.

 

[Carl Spackler]

I wasn't at the game so I got to watch the replay multiple times. Ashiru was too small to set the edge and that's when Brown came underneath. All Ashiru needs to do is get to the edge, hold his ground. That would either route Toussaint up the middle or else allow a tackle deeper off the edge.

I'm not sure what you mean, and I do want to understand. What are you expecting Ashiru to do with that TE he is matched up against? I think he's supposed to take on his block and drive him into the backfield, and I think that's exactly what he did. The only thing he didn't do was shed his block 3 yards deep and make the tackle. But he had plenty of players behind him that were supposed to do that depending on what gap the RB took, either inside his blocker, or outside. The runner went outside, and there was nobody there.

 

[Kgun7]

You got a certain play in mind? Let's look at it and see what we can figure out.

I'm no Merril Hoge ... but Chris Spielman showed how Ty-Meer Brown got caught inside and failed to contain the edge.

Video can be found here: #mce_temp_url#

 

[upstater]

I'm not sure what you mean, and I do want to understand. What are you expecting Ashiru to do with that TE he is matched up against? I think he's supposed to take on his block and drive him into the backfield, and I think that's exactly what he did. The only thing he didn't do was shed his block 3 yards deep and make the tackle. But he had plenty of players behind him that were supposed to do that depending on what gap the RB took, either inside his blocker, or outside. The runner went outside, and there was nobody there.

I want him to come upfield to the outside and hold his position. There is way too much real estate outside of him. He needs to be 3 yards upfield at the 15 before Touissant get there.

 

[Carl Spackler]

Go to the 2 minute mark of the highlights. http://scores.espn.go.com/ncf/recap?gameId=332640041

You'll see Ashiru pushing the tackle instead of getting the edge and holding his ground.

That's the same thing I'm looking at, and I see Ashiru as the last player on the LOS for the defensive line, and he engages a TE, not a Tackle and maintains the edge, forcing the RB to either go inside or outside his blocker he's engaged with. Anybody else? What's anybody else see? Democracy in action here.

 

[Kgun7]

 

[Carl Spackler]

I'm no Merril Hoge ... but Chris Spielman showed how Ty-Meer Brown got caught inside and failed to contain the edge.

Video can be found here: #mce_temp_url#

In that second picture, unless my eyes are completely wrong, Ashiru is engaged with the TE standing on top of the M - right on the edge of the original offensive formation. I don't see how he failed to maintain the edge.

 

[upstater]

I am not saying Brown did the right thing. I'm saying UConn has had trouble setting the edge all season long. All the big runs have been to the outside, especially against Maryland. And this is another example. Brown chose the wrong line, but the fact that a RB can get to the far hash and turn it up field means he's working with 20 yards of room on the outside. Good luck trying to stop that. I doubt Brown can do a thing about it even if he went outside.

 

[upstater]

In that second picture, unless my eyes are completely wrong, Ashiru is engaged with the TE standing on top of the M - right on the edge of the original offensive formation. I don't see how he failed to maintain the edge.

He has to get upfield more, and turn his shoulders square to the runner. He's one and a half yards upfield and messing with the TE. When Touissant gets to the hash, he turns upfield. He's got a lot of real estate to work with.

 

[Kgun7]

Spielman said Ty-Meer Brown (the guy circled) had edge containment.

 

[upstater]

Spielman said Ty-Meer Brown (the guy circled) had edge containment.

I think we're using the terminology differently. Yes, an LB or more rarely a safety like Ty-Meer has edge containment. But I see Belichick with the Patriots use "setting the edge" differently. His guys play two gap, 5 technique. So, his OLB/DE (same thing in the 3/4) set the edge by boxing in the RB. That's it. They don't penetrate. If they can get a hand on the runner, sure, then take him down. But Belichick's primary goal is to box the runner in and reroute him to big linebackers. The edge guy could be a DE like Chandler Jones or a OLB like Mike Vrabel. The difference in the two ways of describing it is that the OLB or S with edge containment is lined up behind the line. In this case, Ty-meer is a safety down the field. He has edge containment as a responsibility. The problem that I'm seeing is that the down linemen (whether it's an OLB or DE) is not boxing in the runner. By the time Touissant gets to the hash, Ashiru is only one yard upfield and he hasn't turned his blocker's back to the runner. That blocker has to turn his back because if he tries to push the DE/OLB off the edge, he creates even more of a box for the runner, and sends the runner up the middle, and also allows the DE/OLB to peel off easier.

 

[Kgun7]

Upstater - I can't get that technical. I appreciate your explanation, but I was only repeating what Spielman said on the telecast. He pointed out that Brown took too much of an inside angle and got caught up in the wash. He should have taken a more outside line and forced the play back inside.

 

[upstater]

Upstater - I can't get that technical. I appreciate your explanation, but I was only repeating what Spielman said on the telecast. He pointed out that Brown took too much of an inside angle and got caught up in the wash. He should have taken a more outside line and forced the play back inside.

Absolutely, I agree with that. I originally was talking about a repeated problem throughout the season (as FFC mentioned in the original post). and Carl asked for an example. I don't see our DEs boxing in runners enough.

 

[mcs333]

Spielman did an excellent job explaining how Brown should have had outside containment and showed how he went inside instead and thus an easy TD by Mich.. Brown was out of positioned.

 

[Carl Spackler]

He has to get upfield more, and turn his shoulders square to the runner. He's one and a half yards upfield and messing with the TE. When Touissant gets to the hash, he turns upfield. He's got a lot of real estate to work with.

Well, we're going to disagree here it seems. On this particular play at least. THe last man on the Defensive side of the LOS on the line, was ashiru, and he locked up on the tight end and at very, very least held his ground. The running play went to his side, and RB went outside the blocker, and the defensive back screwed up his run fit. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. (on the other end of the line, jesse joseph was in the QB's face.)

Any other plays? It's all there online to look at.

 

[upstater]

Well, we're going to disagree here it seems. On this particular play at least. THe last man on the Defensive side of the LOS on the line, was ashiru, and he locked up on the tight end and at very, very least held his ground. The running play went to his side, and RB went outside the blocker, and the defensive back screwed up his run fit. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. (on the other end of the line, jesse joseph was in the QB's face.)

Any other plays? It's all there online to look at.

No need for other plays. I think this one was prototypical. I'd like to see the defender upfield more, shoulders square to the runner, the TE boxing in the runner. In other words, the DE/OLBs have been the same exact thing that Ashiru did (I don't blame the kid) and the RBs have been turning the corner. In this instance, Touissant is a relatively unexplosive player and Brown's bad angle is highlighted. when Brown and Maryland were running last week, the problem on the line was magnified because even when the OLBs and Ss had good angles, they had to make open field tackles on players faster than them, with a lot of territory. It's like Pasqualoni and Hughes don't mind outside runs.

 

[Carl Spackler]

No need for other plays. I think this one was prototypical. I'd like to see the defender upfield more, shoulders square to the runner, the TE boxing in the runner. In other words, the DE/OLBs have been the same exact thing that Ashiru did (I don't blame the kid) and the RBs have been turning the corner. In this instance, Touissant is a relatively unexplosive player and Brown's bad angle is highlighted. when Brown and Maryland were running last week, the problem on the line was magnified because even when the OLBs and Ss had good angles, they had to make open field tackles on players faster than them, with a lot of territory. It's like Pasqualoni and Hughes don't mind outside runs.

Really? Wow. Upstater, I think you're talking out your butt. Our defensive ends, OLB's and pretty much the entire defense for that matter, played very, very well on Saturday night.

Can you at least admit that ashiru was on a TE, and not a tackle?