Connecticut is the largest state without a top 5 conf school

[Thirdelement]

I really couldn't disagree more with this. The idea ND cared blows my mind. I'm trying hard to find anything written on this board in recent years with which I can disagree more.

1A. DeLeone is a great coach
1B. Bernie Fine doesn't like boys
1C. BC was right not to hire Calhoun

Surely, the idea that Pitt lured ND is 1D among these other arguments.

It's not as if I was saying that ND made a deal with the ACC only because Pitt joined. But I am saying that ND would much rather play Pitt than UConn in football. If you don't think a lot of conference alignment revolved around the B1G, Big 12, and ACC trying to recruit ND, you have not been paying attention. If you think it's absurd to think the ACC would take Pitt over UConn in an attempt to ease the recruitment of ND, I think you're wrong.

 

[upstater]

It's not as if I was saying that ND made a deal with the ACC only because Pitt joined. But I am saying that ND would much rather play Pitt than UConn in football. If you don't think a lot of conference alignment revolved around the B1G, Big 12, and ACC trying to recruit ND, you have not been paying attention. If you think it's absurd to think the ACC would take Pitt over UConn in an attempt to ease the recruitment of ND, I think you're wrong.

It's absurd.

We know UConn and Cuse were the first choices. If Uconn got the bid then and Pitt went to the B12, ND would still be in the ACC today.

 

[Durks07]

If the Power Conferences have been trying desperately to get ND into their folds, then it stands to reason that they probably would not have given ND easy access to the playoff system, and forced their hand. Instead, they decided that the best thing to do was to create a system where ND could be independent as long as it wanted.

I have a difficult time imagining in what way Maryland and Rutgers being added to the B1G was aimed at attracting ND. Those moves were made because of the markets they reside in, and nothing more. As far as appealing to ND by adding Pitt rather than UConn, please elaborate on how that is true. See, we have confirmed evidence that in FACT, UConn was slated to go to the ACC along with Syracuse, not Pitt (Gene DeFilipo, B.C. AD).

I can't think of a single move in realignment that was geared towards attracting ND anywhere. TCU and WVU to the Big XII (Really? Notre Dame wants to be in a conference with Texas and schools whose majors including Advanced Breathing?) Maryland and Rutgers to the B1G? Louisville to the ACC? Syracuse and Pitt (a year before ND joined the ACC, and only after the fit B.C. threw)? Maybe Nebraska, maybe...at least they are a historically significant program, added to a conference with Ohio State, Penn State, and Michigan.

Once ND feels compelled to join somewhere, then they will join somewhere, but no Conference Commissioner is making his moves in order to appeal to ND. ND will make the decision to join somewhere if it has to, not when a certain school jumps to a new conference.

 

[Thirdelement]

It's absurd.

We know UConn and Cuse were the first choices. If Uconn got the bid then and Pitt went to the B12, ND would still be in the ACC today.

So, it's absurd to think that during deliberations, Swofford called ND and asked who they might prefer to have in the conference and that the knowledge was shared with the ACC Presidents prior to the decision to take Pitt and Syracuse?

You are saying, with the word absurd, that there is no way this could ever have happened. I would wonder how anyone would think it wouldn't happen with the ACC intent on recruiting ND.

You seem to be arguing against a point that I am not trying to make. I'm saying that ND's preference to play Pitt was a factor in its selection for membership in the ACC. Do you disagree with this?

 

[Durks07]

So, it's absurd to think that during deliberations, Swofford called ND and asked who they might prefer to have in the conference and that the knowledge was shared with the ACC Presidents prior to the decision to take Pitt and Syracuse?

You are saying, with the word absurd, that there is no way this could ever have happened. I would wonder how anyone would think it wouldn't happen with the ACC intent on recruiting ND.

You seem to be arguing against a point that I am not trying to make. I'm saying that ND's preference to play Pitt was a factor in its selection for membership in the ACC. Do you disagree with this?

Does this mean that a year before ND was invited to join the ACC, Swofford contacted a Big East member, and asked them to counsel them on which Big East schools to invite to the ACC?

 

[Thirdelement]

Does this mean that a year before ND was invited to join the ACC, Swofford contacted a Big East member, and asked them to counsel them on which Big East schools to invite to the ACC?

I would think so. To assume that there were no back channel communications during the last five years seems naive. Every school that changed conferences was in discussions with their new conference prior to officially leaving their old conference.

 

[J187Money]

Frank I'm seeing a trend in your posts. You underestimate UConn, even if it takes multiple assumptions to do so.

I don't think he is underestimating UConn. I think that analysis is spot on. Go back to the beginning of the thread. The average income in CT is about the highest in the country. And yet UConn's endowment lacks far behind other schools of its size. The people with the money in CT didn't go to UConn. For years it was a safety school for kids that couldn't get into an Ivy or top flight private. That may not be the case now but it will take a lot of years for our demographics to change.

 

[CL82]

I don't think he is underestimating UConn. I think that analysis is spot on. Go back to the beginning of the thread. The average income in CT is about the highest in the country. And yet UConn's endowment lacks far behind other schools of its size. The people with the money in CT didn't go to UConn. For years it was a safety school for kids that couldn't get into an Ivy or top flight private. That may not be the case now but it will take a lot of years for our demographics to change.

Reread the quote:

Even if UConn itself actually does well in drawing that upper tier group within its home state of Connecticut, it might not be getting the benefit of a multiplier effect of other upper tier people moving to the state that attended similarly-situated public institutions and, as a result, would be more sympathetic to supporting public universities (in contrast to a place like Chicago where it seems like everyone that moves there went to a Big Ten school or how Atlanta is a center for both SEC and ACC grads).

That's an awful lot of assumptions to get to a conclusion. I've seen similar stuff in other posts by Frank. Don't get me wrong. He's not a troll. I'm glad that he stops by and I find his posts interesting. He does, however, consistently view us more negatively than an unbiased read of the facts would lead. On a minus 5 to plus 5 scale where 0 is neutral, I'd put him minus 1.5. Not horrible but a consistent negative bias.

 

[AZHuskiePop]

I have one question for the footfall only advocates.
UConn wins the 2013 men's basketball title
According to them this is meaningless
Does this effect CR
I'm saying its a game changer
It only takes one fact to destroy the most beautiful of theories.

Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2

 

[btstimpy]

​

I agree with this. I have to wonder if during the expansion round that brought Syracuse and Pitt to the ACC if one of the factors considered was what schools would be attractive to ND. I think most ND fans would agree that USC and Navy are the series we are most invested in continuing. I think that Pitt falls into the next grouping, along with Michigan State. I don't know if Pitt fans feel the same. Maybe the Pitt poster could offer his thoughts. I do know that moving half of our schedule to the ACC becomes easier to tolerate knowing that some of those games will be against Pitt.​

The selections made by the ACC were the result of the ACC's 4-4-4 Expansion committee that has 4 Presidents, 4 ADs, and 4 faculty representatives on it. This committee has studied the landscape and all the available schools. They have them listed in order of priority and availability. The addition of Louisville happened really quick after Maryland's announcement because of this committee. The fact that UConn and Cincinnati were mentioned reveals some others on the list at the time.

The ACC has wanted Notre Dame to be a member for 25 years. I think it is without question that the affect on Notre Dame was a calculation during the selections of Syracuse and Pitt. With Boston College and Miami already in the ACC, these are just other historic Notre Dame football rivals added. For this reason Navy remains a choice for 16 albeit a weak one because of basketball limitations. UConn and Cincinnati are at the top of the list, and Notre Dame's preference is important because it will require Notre Dame's joining to make the addition anyway.

 

[upstater]

Does this mean that a year before ND was invited to join the ACC, Swofford contacted a Big East member, and asked them to counsel them on which Big East schools to invite to the ACC?

This is precisely why I labeled it absurd.
Imagine the position the ACC would be in if, say, ESPN said, you get $2m per year more per team with UConn than Pitt.
Then you have ND telling the ACC, we told you CLEARLY our preference was Pitt.

Absurd.

 

[upstater]

Man, people have wild imaginations.

 

[specialisthusky]

This is some wild kinds of delusion going on in this thread.

 

[adbern7]

yea, definitely some more to this unfortunate story than "ESPN killed the BE". one could argue ESPN is in a worse position post CR than in 2010: it's paying more for its SEC, ACC properties, one of its jewels (BE) is gone, and non-ESPN properties B1G and B12 are healthy competition. As a Cuse fan i'd much rather be in stable BE than where we are now playing 3rd fiddle to the Carolina schools and the Southern schools. Check out an FSU or Clemson msg board when they talk about ACC divisional re-alignment: Pitt, Cuse, BC are considered the crappy filler schools. And ND will never join anywhere full time as long as they have playoff access as an Indy: which they always will bc the conference chairs will never take that away and risk ND going to not-their-conference. Those news stories about Slive and Swarbrick becoming BFF's the when designing the new playoff? Bc Slive knew ND wasn't going SEC so he made sure neither B1G nor ACC would get them either.
Anyway, I digress, but there's always more than meets the eye and many layers to the CR stuff. i will say the Uconn fans on this board tend to overrate "marketing" aspect of these CR decisions. believe it or not it actually isn't all about cable boxes (Rutgers might be the exception that proves the rule), but tradition, geography, and 'fit' matter too.

 

[uconnfan68]

yea, definitely some more to this unfortunate story than "ESPN killed the BE". one could argue ESPN is in a worse position post CR than in 2010: it's paying more for its SEC, ACC properties, one of its jewels (BE) is gone, and non-ESPN properties B1G and B12 are healthy competition. As a Cuse fan i'd much rather be in stable BE than where we are now playing 3rd fiddle to the Carolina schools and the Southern schools. Check out an FSU or Clemson msg board when they talk about ACC divisional re-alignment: Pitt, Cuse, BC are considered the crappy filler schools. And ND will never join anywhere full time as long as they have playoff access as an Indy: which they always will bc the conference chairs will never take that away and risk ND going to not-their-conference. Those news stories about Slive and Swarbrick becoming BFF's the when designing the new playoff? Bc Slive knew ND wasn't going SEC so he made sure neither B1G nor ACC would get them either.
Anyway, I digress, but there's always more than meets the eye and many layers to the CR stuff. i will say the Uconn fans on this board tend to overrate "marketing" aspect of these CR decisions. believe it or not it actually isn't all about cable boxes (Rutgers might be the exception that proves the rule), but tradition, geography, and 'fit' matter too.

Enjoy your future as a "crappy filler school".

 

[adbern7]

Enjoy your future as a "crappy filler school".

good luck trying to become a crappy filler school in B1G or B12.

 

[Thirdelement]

I imagine UCONN would be worth much more money than Navy to the ACC, but if ND offered to join as a full member with Navy as #16, I think it might happen.

 

[J187Money]

Reread the quote:
That's an awful lot of assumptions to get to a conclusion. I've seen similar stuff in other posts by Frank. Don't get me wrong. He's not a troll. I'm glad that he stops by and I find his posts interesting. He does, however, consistently view us more negatively than an unbiased read of the facts would lead. On a minus 5 to plus 5 scale where 0 is neutral, I'd put him minus 1.5. Not horrible but a consistent negative bias.

I guess from what I've seen he is neutral. I think most people here are overly positive. People "want" UConn to do well but when it comes to voting or opening up their wallets not so much. Our alumni base is very different than the alumni bases of other major state universities. I believe that will change but there is still a lot of small time thinking that pervades the rank and file.

 

[Gregory Koch]

This is insane. Connecticut is the 29th most populated state in the US (and surely much higher in wealth) and it is the largest state that does not contain at least one school that is in one of the top5 conferences. In fact, there are 7 states that are smaller than Connecticut that contain 1 or 2 top 5 conference teams: Iowa 2, Mississippi 2, Arkansas 1, Kansas 2, Utah 1, Nebraska 1, West Virginia 1. The 5 next larger states than Connecticut contain 9 top 5 schools. How can UConn not be included?

Well, technically this isn't true until Rutgers joins the Big Ten officially in 2014. But the AAC will have Louisville and Rutgers for one year, and might actually be able to compete with the other power conferences in 2013, so it's a moot point.

West Virginia is the smallest state to have a Big 5 school, and naturally it's the major university in the state. But WVU was smart to get out when they did. They knew things were going downhill and gladly payed big bucks to get out early.

Almost all of the small schools have been in power conferences for many years (or at least conferences that were power conferences at the time.) Of course, so have we, but if we don't do something soon, we will no longer be able to make that claim.

But even then there's still hope for us - Utah managed to go from the Mountain West, which, like the AAC will be in 2014, is somewhere betwen mid-major and power, to the Pac-12. We could do something similar with the ACC. But the problem is the ACC isn't looking to expand. If the Big Ten goes to 16 soon, or if some schools defect to another conference and they want replacements, we could go there and I think we would, now that the ACC is locked in for years.

 

[Adios]

good luck trying to become a crappy filler school in B1G or B12.

We wouldn't be a filler school in basketball.

 

[UPitt]

​

I agree with this. I have to wonder if during the expansion round that brought Syracuse and Pitt to the ACC if one of the factors considered was what schools would be attractive to ND. I think most ND fans would agree that USC and Navy are the series we are most invested in continuing. I think that Pitt falls into the next grouping, along with Michigan State. I don't know if Pitt fans feel the same. Maybe the Pitt poster could offer his thoughts. I do know that moving half of our schedule to the ACC becomes easier to tolerate knowing that some of those games will be against Pitt.​

I agree that Pitt considers ND to be a rivalry game. Outside of PSU and WVU, I would consider ND to be next in line. Pitt has played more games against ND than all but about 5 schools, so I can see how ND would consider Pitt a rival and like to continue a relationship with Pitt.

I also agree that all conferences have tried adding teams to persuade ND to join a conference, but I do not believe Pitt's addition to the ACC was driven by ND. I think Uconn was the option first mentioned, and with some pushback Pitt was suggested. I do think that Pitt having a good relationship with ND did help Pitt in conference realignment. The ACC could use Pitt to help attract ND (which has half happened). If ND opted to stay in the BE or go elsewhere, Pitt had several future home games against ND (and likely would have continued) that the ACC could use for renotiation with ESPN.

 

[IMind]

I imagine UCONN would be worth much more money than Navy to the ACC, but if ND offered to join as a full member with Navy as #16, I think it might happen.

Ummm except Navy plays it's non football sports in the Patriot League... is the ACC going to add Lehigh or Colgate next?

 

[The Funster]

So, it's absurd to think that during deliberations, Swofford called ND and asked who they might prefer to have in the conference and that the knowledge was shared with the ACC Presidents prior to the decision to take Pitt and Syracuse?

You are saying, with the word absurd, that there is no way this could ever have happened. I would wonder how anyone would think it wouldn't happen with the ACC intent on recruiting ND.

You seem to be arguing against a point that I am not trying to make. I'm saying that ND's preference to play Pitt was a factor in its selection for membership in the ACC. Do you disagree with this?

With the BE about to collapse, ND had only two choices for a partial conference: ACC and Big 12. There is no way the B1G would ever accept them as a partial. ACC was a much better fit than the Big 12 but ND played it smart, pretended that they were interested in the bIG 12 to see if they could squeeze something extra out of either conference in the end they got what they wanted from the ACC and that is where they are. Had it been UConn instead of Pitt...ND woulkd still be affiliated with the ACC. Pitt was in no way a deal breaker.

 

[upstater]

With the BE about to collapse, ND had only two choices for a partial conference: ACC and Big 12. There is no way the B1G would ever accept them as a partial. ACC was a much better fit than the Big 12 but ND played it smart, pretended that they were interested in the bIG 12 to see if they could squeeze something extra out of either conference in the end they got what they wanted from the ACC and that is where they are. Had it been UConn instead of Pitt...ND woulkd still be affiliated with the ACC. Pitt was in no way a deal breaker.

The craziest part of this supposed backroom deliberation is to think what would have happened if ND actually insisted on Pitt while all the other marbles (ESPN, esp.) lined up in UConn's corner.

The smartest thing you can do when you run big organizations is to not create new obstacles or huge problems.

 

[frankthetank]

As someone that went to one of those schools, I'm going to disagree a little bit. Many students at those schools might have difficulty getting into their state school. Lots of stories of kids getting rejected by, say, UConn but getting into NYU, Cuse or Boston U. BU is now maybe a bit more difficult, but even the average SAT and admissions #s at UConn are higher than Cuse.

I also think the reason for more top private schools being in the NE (and these are mainly liberal arts colleges) is simply history. They have been around a long time and have big endowments.

I agree with you when it comes to state support in general in the northeast, but would point out that Connecticut is in the second quintile when it comes to support per student for higher education (and the study I read took cost-of-living into account).

Sure, I think those anecdotal stories can be true, but I'm not looking at a micro-level comparison between UConn and, say, Syracuse, but rather a macro-level view that those schools are largely competing for the same types of students with similar academic qualifications (and I think their respective admissions departments would agree). NYU and Syracuse are drawing a lot of the same types of students from the State of New York that would have attended the University of Texas or Texas A&M if they had lived in the State of Texas (instead of going to one of the SUNY schools). There aren't very many comparable large private schools like NYU, Syracuse and BU with similarly situated academics outside of the Northeast. The Midwest, for instance, is very "high/low" in terms of private school rankings. The top Midwestern private schools such as Northwestern, University of Chicago, Wash U and Notre Dame all draw elite classes of students, but the next tier of large private schools (i.e. Loyola University of Chicago, DePaul, Marquette) are all clearly ranked below their Big Ten neighbors academically. So, Michigan, Wisconsin and Illinois aren't really directly competing with similarly situated large private schools in the way that UConn, Rutgers and the SUNY schools are. (The private school competition for those Big Ten schools is more "aspirational" where they're trying to pick off some elite students that have been admitted to an Ivy League school or Northwestern-type, but they really aren't legitimately going head-to-head with such schools in large amounts.) That's why I think there's a lot more widespread bias in favor of private schools in Northeast (even among those that don't have Ivy-level credentials) compared to other parts of the country.

You're definitely correct about the cumulative effect of private liberal arts colleges in the Northeast. Those don't exist nearly to the same extent in other parts of the country, as well, so that's another source of competition for public universities. I also think that you're right that history plays into this. The push for flagships and land grant colleges in the Midwest and other parts of the country was rooted in filling a then-unmet higher education need in those areas that was already largely being met by private schools in the Northeast.