Colorado in Big XII | Page 7 | The Boneyard

Colorado in Big XII

tzznandrew said:
I know we joke about that elsewhere about Stanford and (in particular) Cal, but both have very well rounded athletic departments. They're just not successful in the ones that make money. I think a conference like the B1G—particularly with UCLA&USC there, and Washington & Oregon probably there—is a natural fit. Cal and Stanford bring prestige and well-roundedness, while also bringing football losers to pad the records of some other schools.

Don't know that it will happen, but I find it relatively hard to believe that Stanford—which consistently has the most well-rounded AD—would be left in the cold, and I also think six west-coast school is a good balance to make sure there isn't too much travel.
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I'm beginning to question whether schools like Cal and Stanford are even going to be playing football in 20-30 years.
 
Buffett10 said:
He would have a shorter leash at another school after turning a 1 win team to a 6 win team heading in to yr 2? Huh?
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correct.
I believe this was a unique & fortunate pairing in 2021, of a program & coach each with nothing to lose. therefore the leash is "longer" at UConn because we already sucked majorly, so there was no standard/culture of winning to uphold. Whatever boosters/$$ we were getting at that time (2021), clearly weren't leaving if we lost more. This program will be whatever he makes it basically, was my point. And that has to be very freeing, as a coach.

Most other P5 football schools that Mora would reasonably be interested in, would require a minimum floor of success, to be considered heading in the right direction. He got fired from UCLA for this very reason, if I recall. He wasn't doing horribly, just not good enough (short leash).

I think we can all agree that 6-7 does not constitute "success" in a normal P5-aspirational football context. He's said so himself. 6-7 is meh (basically his words in press conferences after 2022). So sure, another school will appreciate the 1-year turnaround at UConn, as we all do - but that doesn't mean they're OK with going 6-7 themselves, repeatedly. i.e. "short leash".
 
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champs99and04 said:
I'm beginning to question whether schools like Cal and Stanford are even going to be playing football in 20-30 years.
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Stanford has a huge endowment so they don't even have to play football, but being associated with a competitive conference like the PAC-12 across all sports is important. This helps them attracting top athletes for Olympic sports. Same can be said for Cal.

I hung out with graduates from both schools regularly. Most aren't even aware about Colorado leaving. I played tennis with a Cal graduate tonight, and he could care less about what's going on with the PAC-12.

My other Alma mater Santa Clara U dropped football awhile ago. It is getting harder and harder for private schools to fund football unless they get B1G size media deals.
 
HuskyHawk said:
And....(because I've been saying that is quite possible), what does that mean for the ACC? It means it isn't losing anybody and will probably raid the Big XII in 2-3 years, which allows them to renegotiate the contract. There are going to be 4 "P" conferences and a fairly strong MWC. Yes, two will be at the top of the heap, it is what it is.
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For months you’re been saying there will be two conferences (SEC and Big 10) and we need to get there eventually by going Big 12 first. What changed?

As far as I’m concerned, the bolded portion above is what we see currently.
 
  1. ACC & PAC outright merge to become a 24 program conference
  2. No GOR. The B1G and SEC are what they are. Spot #3 is there for the taking with a liberal open door policy
  3. Academics and football are 1 and 1A. Kick L-Ville to the curb if necessary
  4. When FSU, Clemson, Oregon, etc leave, backfill with other high academics - Tulane, SMU, USF? Keep the count a few higher than the Big 2, say 18-20
  5. Berkely, Stanford, Arizona, Washington, UNC, UVA, Ga Tech, Duke, Miami, Colorado? UConn? Kansas?
  6. The two conferences face reality, settle on #3 with a very high academic focus and put the Big 12 in the rearview
Highly unlikely but if those member programs want a better home going forward, why not. A merger has been mentioned. A combination of flagships and top public and private schools. Control both coasts which are far better than the rust belt.
 
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B1GEast said:
The Big 12 and the PAC 12 were in the same boat. Both with major conference defections, both needing to negotiate media deals.

Yormark was proactive and went after the best remaining teams in the AAC.

Yormark saved his confidence Klaibkoff has no business being a commissioner. He just got his lunch eaten by the Big 12 simply by not understanding the shifting conference landscape. I don't think Yormark's intention was to destroy the PAC as much as it was to save the Big 12.

That's a way different narrative

One guy was proactive the other dragged his feet. You snooze you lose. It wasn't personal just business
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I feel like history is repeating
 
Kolumbo said:
  1. ACC & PAC outright merge to become a 24 program conference
  2. No GOR. The B1G and SEC are what they are. Spot #3 is there for the taking with a liberal open door policy
  3. Academics and football are 1 and 1A. Kick L-Ville to the curb if necessary
  4. When FSU, Clemson, Oregon, etc leave, backfill with other high academics - Tulane, SMU, USF? Keep the count a few higher than the Big 2, say 18-20
  5. Berkely, Stanford, Arizona, Washington, UNC, UVA, Ga Tech, Duke, Miami, Colorado? UConn? Kansas?
  6. The two conferences face reality, settle on #3 with a very high academic focus and put the Big 12 in the rearview
Highly unlikely but if those member programs want a better home going forward, why not. A merger has been mentioned. A combination of flagships and top public and private schools. Control both coasts which are far better than the rust belt.
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I see you’ve been smoking this morning. Nice!
 
CTBasketball said:
For months you’re been saying there will be two conferences (SEC and Big 10) and we need to get there eventually by going Big 12 first. What changed?

As far as I’m concerned, the bolded portion above is what we see currently.
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Not me. Go check my posts going back years. I have always argued that that could never happen. I think 20 is the upper limit on conference size and I'm not sure any want to get that big. I always said there will be 4 "P" conferences of 16-20. Some Pac schools were always going to be left out and the MWC is already solid, so either the MWC gets better or the Pac drops below "P" status.

SEC and B1G will be the top of those 4 for the foreseeable future. If Football breaks away from the NCAA, then you'll see radical changes.
 
For the Big 12, I think it comes down to ASU, Arizona, Utah and UConn for 1 or 3 spots. Pros and cons:

UConn:

Pros:

Athletics - best basketball program of the last 25 years, best women's basketball program in history, solid to excellent in almost all other sports.
Market - Large (3.5 million) wealthy market that extends beyond Connecticut borders
Local competition for eyeballs: UConn's fanbase extends beyond UConn alumni since UConn is the only state school with big time athletics in New York/New England. Connecticut will never have a major professional franchise in any of the three major sports, so there is limited local competition for sports entertainment dollars.
Academics - UConn is way ahead of the rest of the candidates academically.
Wildcard - Proximity to the media and financial capital of the world. Not taking UConn is writing off the northeast for the Big 12, forever.

Cons:

Athletics - Football team was competitive when it was in a major conference, but has sucked the last 10 years or so.
Market - state is not growing and is aging.
Wildcard - distance to other schools

Arizona:

Pros:

Athletics - Basketball is pretty good, but by no means dominant. No natural recruiting base for hoops now that UCLA and USC are in Big 10.
Market - Tucson is not that big, although it is fast growing.
Academics - Arizona is not top 100 academically.
Wildcard - Arizona is "hot" both literally and figuratively

Cons:

Athletics - Football sucks and has had some good coaches that were unable to win in Arizona. Heat may be a problem for recruiting.
Market - Arizona is getting close to the limit of human inhabitability in terms of heat, and is running out of water. Those are not opinions, they are facts. It is not a wealthy state (one of 10 poorest in country), making it less appealing to advertisers and creating uncertainty about how many people would pay for streaming. There are also a lot of the residents that are old transplants who already have a favorite team and are unlikely to switch.
Local Competition - Successful pro franchises two hours away in all three major sports.
Wildcard - Already being in a P5 conference seems to carry some weight

Arizona State

Pros:

Athletics - There is a picture of the Arizona State logo next to "above average" in the dictionary. They are OK in hoops and football, but not particularly exceptional in either, going back decades.
Market - Phoenix is one of the biggest (4.4MM) and fastest growing metro areas in the country, although environmental issues (heat and water) may be changing that. Maricopa county is massive geographically, about 2.5x the size of Connecticut geographically. Going to an Arizona State basketball game is not like driving from Fairfield to the XL Center.
Wildcard - Already being in a P5 conference seems to carry some weight

Cons:

Athletics - mediocre
Market - same issues as Arizona, and two schools are splitting the market
Local Competition - Successful pro franchises in all three major sports.

Utah:

Pros:

Athletics - Football is excellent, although it is hard to tell how much of that is Utah and how much is Kyle Whittingham.
Market - Market is not huge at 3.27 million in the whole state of Utah. It is a fast growing state.
Local Competition - successful local NBA team, but no NFL or MLB franchises
Academics - OK in STEM, below average in everything else. Barely top 100.
Wildcard - Already being in a P5 conference seems to carry some weight

Cons:

Athletics - Basketball has kind of sucked since Majerus left, which raises issues about what happens after Whittingham.
Market - Not a rich market, and BYU will always be the #1 option in this state.



When you spreadsheet it, UConn should win on almost every dimension but the fact that we are not already in a P5 conference.
 
nelsonmuntz said:
For the Big 12, I think it comes down to ASU, Arizona, Utah and UConn for 1 or 3 spots. Pros and cons:

UConn:

Pros:

Athletics - best basketball program of the last 25 years, best women's basketball program in history, solid to excellent in almost all other sports.
Market - Large (3.5 million) wealthy market that extends beyond Connecticut borders
Local competition for eyeballs: UConn's fanbase extends beyond UConn alumni since UConn is the only state school with big time athletics in New York/New England. Connecticut will never have a major professional franchise in any of the three major sports, so there is limited local competition for sports entertainment dollars.
Academics - UConn is way ahead of the rest of the candidates academically.
Wildcard - Proximity to the media and financial capital of the world. Not taking UConn is writing off the northeast for the Big 12, forever.

Cons:

Athletics - Football team was competitive when it was in a major conference, but has sucked the last 10 years or so.
Market - state is not growing and is aging.
Wildcard - distance to other schools

Arizona:

Pros:

Athletics - Basketball is pretty good, but by no means dominant. No natural recruiting base for hoops now that UCLA and USC are in Big 10.
Market - Tucson is not that big, although it is fast growing.
Academics - Arizona is not top 100 academically.
Wildcard - Arizona is "hot" both literally and figuratively

Cons:

Athletics - Football sucks and has had some good coaches that were unable to win in Arizona. Heat may be a problem for recruiting.
Market - Arizona is getting close to the limit of human inhabitability in terms of heat, and is running out of water. Those are not opinions, they are facts. It is not a wealthy state (one of 10 poorest in country), making it less appealing to advertisers and creating uncertainty about how many people would pay for streaming. There are also a lot of the residents that are old transplants who already have a favorite team and are unlikely to switch.
Local Competition - Successful pro franchises two hours away in all three major sports.
Wildcard - Already being in a P5 conference seems to carry some weight

Arizona State

Pros:

Athletics - There is a picture of the Arizona State logo next to "above average" in the dictionary. They are OK in hoops and football, but not particularly exceptional in either, going back decades.
Market - Phoenix is one of the biggest (4.4MM) and fastest growing metro areas in the country, although environmental issues (heat and water) may be changing that. Maricopa county is massive geographically, about 2.5x the size of Connecticut geographically. Going to an Arizona State basketball game is not like driving from Fairfield to the XL Center.
Wildcard - Already being in a P5 conference seems to carry some weight

Cons:

Athletics - mediocre
Market - same issues as Arizona, and two schools are splitting the market
Local Competition - Successful pro franchises in all three major sports.

Utah:

Pros:

Athletics - Football is excellent, although it is hard to tell how much of that is Utah and how much is Kyle Whittingham.
Market - Market is not huge at 3.27 million in the whole state of Utah. It is a fast growing state.
Local Competition - successful local NBA team, but no NFL or MLB franchises
Academics - OK in STEM, below average in everything else. Barely top 100.
Wildcard - Already being in a P5 conference seems to carry some weight

Cons:

Athletics - Basketball has kind of sucked since Majerus left, which raises issues about what happens after Whittingham.
Market - Not a rich market, and BYU will always be the #1 option in this state.



When you spreadsheet it, UConn should win on almost every dimension but the fact that we are not already in a P5 conference.
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I'd like to think UConn is ahead of all three of these "4 corner" schools but we are most likely only ahead of Utah in the eyes of B12. And with Rule #1 even that might be wishful thinking...

My current theory is the B12 is taking a swing for the fences with Oregon and Washington. If either or both of those schools accept we might be SOL. If they stand pat, I'm hoping we're in, with or without the AZ schools.
 
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nelsonmuntz said:
For the Big 12, I think it comes down to ASU, Arizona, Utah and UConn for 1 or 3 spots. Pros and cons:

UConn:

Pros:

Athletics - best basketball program of the last 25 years, best women's basketball program in history, solid to excellent in almost all other sports.
Market - Large (3.5 million) wealthy market that extends beyond Connecticut borders
Local competition for eyeballs: UConn's fanbase extends beyond UConn alumni since UConn is the only state school with big time athletics in New York/New England. Connecticut will never have a major professional franchise in any of the three major sports, so there is limited local competition for sports entertainment dollars.
Academics - UConn is way ahead of the rest of the candidates academically.
Wildcard - Proximity to the media and financial capital of the world. Not taking UConn is writing off the northeast for the Big 12, forever.

Cons:

Athletics - Football team was competitive when it was in a major conference, but has sucked the last 10 years or so.
Market - state is not growing and is aging.
Wildcard - distance to other schools

Arizona:

Pros:

Athletics - Basketball is pretty good, but by no means dominant. No natural recruiting base for hoops now that UCLA and USC are in Big 10.
Market - Tucson is not that big, although it is fast growing.
Academics - Arizona is not top 100 academically.
Wildcard - Arizona is "hot" both literally and figuratively

Cons:

Athletics - Football sucks and has had some good coaches that were unable to win in Arizona. Heat may be a problem for recruiting.
Market - Arizona is getting close to the limit of human inhabitability in terms of heat, and is running out of water. Those are not opinions, they are facts. It is not a wealthy state (one of 10 poorest in country), making it less appealing to advertisers and creating uncertainty about how many people would pay for streaming. There are also a lot of the residents that are old transplants who already have a favorite team and are unlikely to switch.
Local Competition - Successful pro franchises two hours away in all three major sports.
Wildcard - Already being in a P5 conference seems to carry some weight

Arizona State

Pros:

Athletics - There is a picture of the Arizona State logo next to "above average" in the dictionary. They are OK in hoops and football, but not particularly exceptional in either, going back decades.
Market - Phoenix is one of the biggest (4.4MM) and fastest growing metro areas in the country, although environmental issues (heat and water) may be changing that. Maricopa county is massive geographically, about 2.5x the size of Connecticut geographically. Going to an Arizona State basketball game is not like driving from Fairfield to the XL Center.
Wildcard - Already being in a P5 conference seems to carry some weight

Cons:

Athletics - mediocre
Market - same issues as Arizona, and two schools are splitting the market
Local Competition - Successful pro franchises in all three major sports.

Utah:

Pros:

Athletics - Football is excellent, although it is hard to tell how much of that is Utah and how much is Kyle Whittingham.
Market - Market is not huge at 3.27 million in the whole state of Utah. It is a fast growing state.
Local Competition - successful local NBA team, but no NFL or MLB franchises
Academics - OK in STEM, below average in everything else. Barely top 100.
Wildcard - Already being in a P5 conference seems to carry some weight

Cons:

Athletics - Basketball has kind of sucked since Majerus left, which raises issues about what happens after Whittingham.
Market - Not a rich market, and BYU will always be the #1 option in this state.



When you spreadsheet it, UConn should win on almost every dimension but the fact that we are not already in a P5 conference.
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It's somewhat accurate, especially ASU, but your biases show through. 3.4 million and low growth is "large" but 3.27 million and high growth is "not huge". Also no mention of Utah basketball. They have a lot of success in their history. Calling Arizona basketball "pretty good" is absurd. Excellent would be accurate. Without UConn they'd be a clear #2 to Kansas in the Big 12. Without UCLA they are the clear #1 in the PAC.
 
HuskyHawk said:
It's somewhat accurate, especially ASU, but your biases show through. 3.4 million and low growth is "large" but 3.27 million and high growth is "not huge". Also no mention of Utah basketball. They have a lot of success in their history. Calling Arizona basketball "pretty good" is absurd. Excellent would be accurate. Without UConn they'd be a clear #2 to Kansas in the Big 12. Without UCLA they are the clear #1 in the PAC.
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How many Final Fours does AZ have? When was the last?

Utah is a huge state with less population than Connecticut, and Utah will always be the little brother In Utah.
 
HuskyHawk said:
It's somewhat accurate, especially ASU, but your biases show through. 3.4 million and low growth is "large" but 3.27 million and high growth is "not huge". Also no mention of Utah basketball. They have a lot of success in their history. Calling Arizona basketball "pretty good" is absurd. Excellent would be accurate. Without UConn they'd be a clear #2 to Kansas in the Big 12. Without UCLA they are the clear #1 in the PAC.
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Unless you're putting a lot of weight on a 1944 championship, they don't have "a lot of success in their history." They have 3 pre-1967 Final Fours and one after. That Final Four is a quarter of a century ago. It's also their last E8. They've been to the NCAAs just twice in the last 14 years. It's a pretty moribund school, generic in its success relative to other P5s
 
tzznandrew said:
My hope is that UConn is in pen as either 14 or 16
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Same, but if that is the case why has Colorado already made an announcement? B12 has to be trying for OR and WA as Plan A+ before returning to AZ schools and UConn as Plan A
 
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Tyler2Rings said:
Same, but if that is the case why has Colorado already made an announcement? B12 has to be trying for OR and WA as Plan A+ before returning to AZ schools and UConn as Plan A
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It would make sense to let ASU and Arizona think there's limited, uneven slots left—1 or 3. Puts pressure on them while making it clear B12 is still looking to add.

That's my hope.
 
nelsonmuntz said:
How many Final Fours does AZ have? When was the last?

Utah is a huge state with less population than Connecticut, and Utah will always be the little brother In Utah.
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They have four. So does Utah. Both have one NC. UA has 11 elite 8's. They are likely to be Top 25 year after year.

Utah isn't a little brother to anyone in Utah, it's clearly the lead university and has the most fans and best football team. BYU is not > Utah in any metric.

I said it before and I still believe it, if the Big XII could have added Pac schools, BYU, Houston, UCF and Cinci wouldn't be there. That said, the Pac is failing in part because the Big XII was aggressive with those moves and got a good TV deal.

I think UConn has a great case here. I think Yormark sees it. But let's not pretend that it's not a lot closer than your post suggested. Everyone saying we'd be clearly > Utah isn't being realistic. Fortunately, I think Utah wants to stay and will use what leverage they have by doing so to get Utah State in.
 
tzznandrew said:
It would make sense to let ASU and Arizona think there's limited, uneven slots left—1 or 3. Puts pressure on them while making it clear B12 is still looking to add.

That's my hope.
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In Yormark we trust!
 
HuskyHawk said:
They have four. So does Utah. Both have one NC. UA has 11 elite 8's. They are likely to be Top 25 year after year.

Utah isn't a little brother to anyone in Utah, it's clearly the lead university and has the most fans and best football team. BYU is not > Utah in any metric.

I said it before and I still believe it, if the Big XII could have added Pac schools, BYU, Houston, UCF and Cinci wouldn't be there. That said, the Pac is failing in part because the Big XII was aggressive with those moves and got a good TV deal.

I think UConn has a great case here. I think Yormark sees it. But let's not pretend that it's not a lot closer than your post suggested. Everyone saying we'd be clearly > Utah isn't being realistic. Fortunately, I think Utah wants to stay and will use what leverage they have by doing so to get Utah State in.
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Utah has 5 tournament appearances in the last 20 years. Their one championship was EIGHTY YEARS AGO, during a global war where virtually every able bodied male between 18 and 25 was off saving the world. Are you really going to beat a drum for Utah's 1944 Championship?

BYU is greater than Utah by every metric. Utah is to BYU what San Diego State is to UCLA. They are nearby, but one is a national university with a big following, and one just happens to have a good location.
 
ZooCougar said:
Something bad happened to Nelson in Utah.
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Nope. I actually like Utah, and have spent a fair amount of time there over the years. That market can realistically support one major conference program, and BYU is that program.
 
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nelsonmuntz said:
Nope. I actually like Utah, and have spent a fair amount of time there over the years. That market can realistically support one major conference program, and BYU is that program.
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I don’t think the Big 12 wants to double down on Utah.

Also I think that if the ACC would add a skid mark like Louisville then they would add WVU.
 
ZooCougar said:
I don’t think the Big 12 wants to double down on Utah.

Also I think that if the ACC would add a skid mark like Louisville then they would add WVU.
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Liked for "skid mark".

I don't think the ACC would ever make a mistake like Louisville again. That program has been a total embarrassment to the league since it joined, and it was completely predictable. That was such a massive mistake that I bet it is the last time FSU will ever get to control the expansion process.
 
nelsonmuntz said:
Liked for "skid mark".

I don't think the ACC would ever make a mistake like Louisville again. That program has been a total embarrassment to the league since it joined, and it was completely predictable. That was such a massive mistake that I bet it is the last time FSU will ever get to control the expansion process.
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I don’t think WVU is as scandalous as Lewisville though.

But in truth at this point. Unless the right schools moved to the ACC it would be trading down to leave the Big 12.
 
nelsonmuntz said:
Liked for "skid mark".

I don't think the ACC would ever make a mistake like Louisville again. That program has been a total embarrassment to the league since it joined, and it was completely predictable. That was such a massive mistake that I bet it is the last time FSU will ever get to control the expansion process.
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If the OBE catholic schools were right about anything it's that the decision makers at the high profile football schools cause all the problems. If one day they do all break off and make their own league it's going to be so dysfunctional that theyll probably just end up killing interest in the sport.
 
tzznandrew said:
Unless you're putting a lot of weight on a 1944 championship, they don't have "a lot of success in their history." They have 3 pre-1967 Final Fours and one after. That Final Four is a quarter of a century ago. It's also their last E8. They've been to the NCAAs just twice in the last 14 years. It's a pretty moribund school, generic in its success relative to other P5s
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This is another example of perception. We live in a crazy world where facts and numbers no longer have meaning. If enough people say such and such school is a great basketball school, eventually everyone just believes it. If enough people call us trash, eventually everyone just believes it. That's how this all works. If actual athletic department success was worth anything, we'd have our pick of suitors.
 
nelsonmuntz said:
Nope. I actually like Utah, and have spent a fair amount of time there over the years. That market can realistically support one major conference program, and BYU is that program.
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Why? Kansas, Oklahoma, Iowa etc. all support two P5 programs and none of them have the built in audience of a religious following.

I don't like the idea of Utah but in the spirit of arguing over meaningless stuff, let's have at it.
 
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