College basketball value in large markets

[Marty Jackson]

I haven't looked at who's top 25 or not, but if you look at the A-10 they have Xavier who is seemingly always top 20, They've recently added Butler and VCU. They have St Joes who has good history and while they have fallen off lately have been good in the recent past (not 1980, Pudge). they've got teams in major cities up and down the East Coast. They have some teams with history. They typically get 3 or 4 bids most years and I could see that going to 4-5 now with Butler and VCU. My view is that if a network wanted to market them as the up and coming conference, there is certainly something there to work with. And obviously they came cheap, so even if you spent money marketing them, you'd still be ahead of the game. And given that the Big East lost some well know programs, irrespective of what you think of their quality, and it faces a downgrade, the A-10 could get a bit of new life.

Please stop...
Uconn
UofL
Cincy
Marquette
Memphis
G'town
Villanova
St johns
Houston
Temple
these schools are 100 times better than anything in the a-10.

Listening to whaler suggest the BE would be a stretch to have 4-5 teams ranked while you now have the A-10 getting 4-5 bids is just lunacy.

 

[Marty Jackson]

whaler is abslutely right too about the split personality of this board. On the one hand, the Big East, apparently led by a resurgent Houston, is totaly unharmed by the loss of 4 of its top 10 programs, yet on the other hand, nobody would want to take the job as head coach of arguably the best program remaining in the conference, indeed one of the top 3 or 4 in the country. My viewis that we ought o be trying to land a major coach while we still have that reputation because if we screw it up we could well end up as Houston, a program that used to be important.

Please stop making dumb assumptions to prove your point...
Who said no one wanted the Uconn job. I didn't even know that the candidate list, or lack of, was disclosed. Please provide your reasons for thinking nobody wanted our coaching job. You don't like Ollie. That's fine. Just stop making up facts and arguments to support your position.

 

[whaler11]

Do you really think that a tv deal is predicated on a conference having 6-7 teams ranked at the same time? There isn't a conference that could deliver that regularly. Not even sure why you chose to go there...
Regardless, the a-10 does not have a single program that can rival the top programs in the BE. The BE, in any given year, will have 6-7 teams with realistic chances for the tourney. That means a lot of meaningful games to broadcast.
We can debate the value of bb as a standalone entity all day long. Whatever that value is, the BE will be on the upper end of the spectrum when compared to any other league.

Holy . I never compared the quality of play in the Big East to the A10. I also never brought up 6-7 top 25 teams - I pointed out it's a stretch to expect when someone else said it- maybe read the damned thread.

 

[Marty Jackson]

Of course the teams are very different but the idea that just having lots of winter content is a hoax. It has to be of quality. 4 top 25 teams is possible for the Big East. 6-7 is a serious stretch.

This is your quote... Did you not mention 6-7?
Maybe the problem is I read your quote but you didn't......

 

[whaler11]

When was the Contract done?

What is the content? How many games per year?

See .... markets move. You can cite that all you want. But, we have entered an entirely new age. Marketing, btw, is not going to help with Saint Bonaventure & URI etc etc. You can't just roll out the balls; there has to be some Value. If the BE positioned the Big Monday to be UCF versus SMU today, that's not worth much. But, I expect that we still will have 4-7 top 25 teams. With Brand Names.

Yeah Marty maybe if you read you'd see where the number came from prior.

 

[Marty Jackson]

Yeah Marty maybe if you read you'd see where the number came from prior.

So what did you mean when you suggested 6-7 teams would be a stretch, and then suggested 6-7 being ranked at the same time?

 

[whaler11]

So what did you mean when you suggested 6-7 teams would be a stretch, and then suggested 6-7 being ranked at the same time?

I meant exactly what I said. That having 4 teams in the Top 25 at the same time is a realistic goal. Having 6-7 ranked in the top 25 at the same time is a stretch.

 

[Marty Jackson]

I meant exactly what I said. That having 4 teams in the Top 25 at the same time is a realistic goal. Having 6-7 ranked in the top 25 at the same time is a stretch.

I release you...

 

[Jericho]

You just love pissing on UConn & the BE. Your act has been tired & growing increasingly fatuous as the months have dragged on.

The Big East has a track record. The components that make it successful have only changed slightly on the basketball side. I'm NOT buying the power of the Mountaineers or Pitt without a conference laboratory like our conference. And, I believe solid basketball Programs with good coaching will thrive (ie. Fran Dunphy & Memphis). All others compete. There is NO flipping way a George Washington/St.Bona/StJoes/URI/UMass/Duquesne/LaSalle have a shot at that brass ring. NONE. Even a Seton Hall can have a top 35 program in the BE ... for a brief while.

I wouldn't give you the keys to an empty Radio Shack store.

This I think is the major point of discontent. You attribute success to the conference, not the schools. I'd say most people see it the other way around. As in Pittsburgh is good because they have a good coach and a good program, not because being a member of the Big East made them good. You seem to think the Pittsburgh leaving the conference will automatically make them much worse, and whoever takes their place automatically will be come much better. I see no specific evidence to support this other than speculation, so you may understand the skepticism.

 

[Pudge]

That's right ... I do attribute the high quality played by Pitt & some others to the conference.

This BE conference has been COMPETE or you look foolish. Pitt looked liked crap for most of the period from 1982-1999. One Coach ... brought a style & sold the BE conference to kids. They became one of the best Programs in the conference. (the only thing unusual about Pitt is the easy transition to ... WAIT FOR IT ... an assistant who never had a HC position. hmmmmm).

See ... I don't think Notre Dame was good as an independent. Louisville & Cincy were not top quality... not getting to the highest level pre-BE (YES ... I know the Huggins record). USF, certainly, grew because thy got tired of getting their ass kicked (and Miami before them ... briefly).

This conference, in basketball, is special. And I don't believe losing ... in my view ... Syracuse & a few in our top tier ... is irreplaceable. Pastner ... oooo ANOTHER assistant without HC experience ... is building a nice Program. Getting top kids, he merely needs to get a few wins in the NCAA to be considered at a better echelon. I believe you will find two of the new Programs to be competitive on day One; maybe 3.

For whaler ...

really?
LaSalle
Fordham
George Washington
Saint Bonaventure
URI
UMASS

You really think they are near a Big East level? That's an embarrassing post. Bobby Gonzalez would have whipped all of 'em.

 

[whaler11]

Honestly you are so stupid it's painful.

I can't continue to point out your lack of reading comprehension any longer. I only hope for your sake that you are intentionally misrepresenting what I say.

As for your comments on Louisville they are the whipped cream on your idiocy sundae.

 

[uconnfan68]

lary brown i would consider a top coach

He's over 70 yo, he's there for 1 year.

 

[Dann]

-having uconn and lville keep the nbe a top 5 conf all day. even a bball only split won't kill it as these 2 are top teams.
-cincy/memphis/gtown/nova/marq give the nbe quality. top 30 program quality.
-a comeback by sju and depual which we are starting to see will make this conf a top 3 or 4 easy.
-usf and ucf are both on the rise program wise, no doubt. they aren't big time or tv monsters but they provide depth and they are putting the effort in.
-i would argue that temple upgrade to the nbe will soon if not asap put them in the cincy/memphis...group
-smu and uh are both trying hard which is great. smu hired LB. if nothing else it shows they are going for it one step at a time. uh has put together a couple recruit classes very nicely. they are after it also. they have great history and potential for a memphis like rise.
-hell rutgers has almost always sucked and the past 2 years they are now trying which is great. if they rise more they are like usf/ucf i think but with better brand value to the nbe.
-another interesting thing, sdsu and bsu are not coming in bball but both of those schools are on huge rises also. sdsu had one hell of a year not to long ago and they are building quickly. bsu went from nothing to atleast competitive in bball, they are tyring also. i wouldnt be suprised to see them eventually make the jump a couple years from now if the nbe expands west more and for all sports down the road.

-byu has to be target #1 for #14 in the nbe, mabye argue for that spot. if its then they are like navy=fball only. if its byu, the nbe needs to get byu bball into the league as that would be another quality add both on the court and brand wise.

the nbe from the minute we start next year is a top 4 or 5 league and will never be worse than that. on any given year i'll take uconn/lville/cincy/gtown/nova/marq or memphis as a top 6 and put them up against another conf top 6. i think you could argue any conf vs that we would go .500 or better. the acc? unc/duke/cuse/pitt/?/?. i'll take that matchup and see what happens.

the nbe was lately known for its depth. we may be a bit weaker from 10 down then before but our top teams are still nothing to f with in the cb world.

 

[Pudge]

Honestly you are so stupid it's painful.

I can't continue to point out your lack of reading comprehension any longer. I only hope for your sake that you are intentionally misrepresenting what I say.

As for your comments on Louisville they are the whipped cream on your idiocy sundae.

You are the quintessential Connecticut curmodgeon. You've spent this whole thread trying to contrast the A-10 ... an improving league ... to what the Big East is. Well, I ain't buying it. I find your post impossible to read ... so it's not a reading comprehension problem: it's a "I don't care" issue.

And Kevin Ollie? I laugh at those who think we automatically get Shaka Smart or Brad Stevens. That is NOT the track record at Indiana or Kentucky or UCLA or Marquette when a coaching legend/Program went into transition. I give Ollie a shot. That's all. And, I would have given him more than a 1 year contract. Cripes ... we were undermarket with Calhoun the last few years; a extra $700k? We still would be able to make a decision at year end.

 

[whaler11]

You are the quintessential Connecticut curmodgeon. You've spent this whole thread trying to contrast the A-10 ... an improving league ... to what the Big East is. Well, I ain't buying it. I find your post impossible to read ... so it's not a reading comprehension problem: it's a "I don't care" issue.

And Kevin Ollie? I laugh at those who think we automatically get Shaka Smart or Brad Stevens. That is NOT the track record at Indiana or Kentucky or UCLA or Marquette when a coaching legend/Program went into transition. I give Ollie a shot. That's all. And, I would have given him more than a 1 year contract. Cripes ... we were undermarket with Calhoun the last few years; a extra $700k? We still would be able to make a decision at year end.

Dear moron. If you don't care and clearly don't understand my point why are you constantly replying.

I compared the quantity of teams in the A-10 to the Big East. I compared the percentage of teams that add no television value in the A-10 to the Big East.

I am then drawing the conclusion that this will harm the average take for the Big East schools in television money based on how poorly the A-10 is getting paid.

Nice and slow: lots of teams + high percentage of dead weight schools = valuable schools harmed by dead weight in television contract

I am in no way comparing the quality of basketball played by said leagues although I do imagine I have a lot more respect for the mid majors than you.

As for you last comment on Shaka and Stevens - please don't ever say someone else has pissed on UConn. Save the Big East Badge and UConn brand nonsense. You clearly think nothing of the program if you don't think it's possible to recruit the best mid-major coaching prospects.

 

[Marty Jackson]

I'd also add that Memphis is not as good as some may think. Post-Calipari, they missed the Tourney all together in 2010, then were a 12 and an 8 seed. Pre-Calipari, they sporadically made the tournament. Outside of a strong 4 year run with Calipari, Memphis basketball history is spotty. Sounds a lot like UMass.




It's not that things don't change. But one cannot automatically assume every program will get better simply by joining the Big East. One also cannot assume that the Big East of tomorrow will be the same as the Big East of yesterday. The old Big East was always in contention for being the best conference in the NCAA. I'd say it was the clear best conference for much of the last decade. I don't have that confidence moving forward. If you're no longer the best, maybe you lose some of the recruits you got in the past.

And no, Memphis and Temple don't exactly replace the departed schools. Notre dAme's recent tourney history is better than Temples. Almost any schools tourney history is better than Memphis once you account for the fact Calipari is gone. Neither school are crap. Both are basketball first universities in inner city locations. But people underappreciate how good West Virginia or Pittsburgh (10 straight tourneys and only once lower than a 5 seed) were. You don't replace those schools easily or immediately (if ever).

Memphis and temple don't replace Pitt or Syracuse. What schools could have been added that would?

 

[Marty Jackson]

Dear moron. If you don't care and clearly don't understand my point why are you Fecunditying constantly replying.

I compared the quantity of teams in the A-10 to the Big East. I compared the percentage of teams that add no television value in the A-10 to the Big East.

I am then drawing the conclusion that this will harm the average take for the Big East schools in television money based on how poorly the A-10 is getting paid.

Nice and slow: lots of teams + high percentage of dead weight schools = valuable schools harmed by dead weight in television contract

I am in no way comparing the quality of basketball played by said leagues although I do imagine I have a lot more respect for the mid majors than you.

As for you last comment on Shaka and Stevens - please don't ever say someone else has pissed on UConn. Save the Big East Badge and UConn brand nonsense. You clearly think nothing of the program if you don't think it's possible to recruit the best mid-major coaching prospects.

You must be the most misunderstood poster... Does it occur to you that maybe the reason you find yourself in these constant debates about nothing is YOU.

 

[whaler11]

You must be the most misunderstood poster... Does it occur to you that maybe the reason you find yourself in these constant debates about nothing is YOU.

Funny coming from a guy who was dead wrong about what I posted in this thread because he didn't read it correctly.

 

[Jericho]

Memphis and temple don't replace Pitt or Syracuse. What schools could have been added that would?

That's the point. They don't replace either school. I'm not saying any school would have or that teh Big East made poor additions. I understand the additions. The point was simply the Bigi East is weaker now. Probably weaker than most want to admit. Notre Dame's recent history is better than Temple's and Memphis is a huge wildcard post-Calipari (and were not that great before him). That leads me into my next point...

That's right ... I do attribute the high quality played by Pitt & some others to the conference.

This BE conference has been COMPETE or you look foolish. Pitt looked liked crap for most of the period from 1982-1999. One Coach ... brought a style & sold the BE conference to kids. They became one of the best Programs in the conference. (the only thing unusual about Pitt is the easy transition to ... WAIT FOR IT ... an assistant who never had a HC position. hmmmmm).

See ... I don't think Notre Dame was good as an independent. Louisville & Cincy were not top quality... not getting to the highest level pre-BE (YES ... I know the Huggins record). USF, certainly, grew because thy got tired of getting their ass kicked (and Miami before them ... briefly).

This conference, in basketball, is special. And I don't believe losing ... in my view ... Syracuse & a few in our top tier ... is irreplaceable. Pastner ... oooo ANOTHER assistant without HC experience ... is building a nice Program. Getting top kids, he merely needs to get a few wins in the NCAA to be considered at a better echelon. I believe you will find two of the new Programs to be competitive on day One; maybe 3.

The assumption that the Big East will continue to be what it was. I've said repeatedly the Big East WAS the best conference. And I'd concede that recruiting is easier when you can promise the ability the play in an elite conference. Its for the same reason that the SEC overall recruits well in football. But the Big East was not light years ahead of everyone. They weren't placing 6 teams in the Elite Eight. They were merely better than everyone else. But now? They've lost a bunch and now they are probably not the best. Sure, it could still be the best conference in a given year, but likely not as consistently as before. And that logically it could be believed that less recruits end up in the Big East as a result.

I don't buy the idea the Pittsburgh falls apart and some other school rises merely because of a switch of conference. The dominance of the Big East is not static. The conference level exits because of the individual schools being good. Not visa versa. If a good program leaves, the conference does not make another one instantly better. Instead, the overall talent level declines. And it's quite possible that trickles down to the recruitment level and turns a few players away to other schools.

Although Louisville is a terrible example. You want to argue Louisville wasn't as good pre-Big East. Ask the 1980 and 1986 Championship squads. Lousiville has a long record of success. It was in a low point just towards the end of Crum's career and it's gotten better. But they were always good.

Some platitude of not believing in losing is BS. So other conferences fully believe in losing? The Big East's level of competition was high. And that is hard to compete with. But it may not always be that high if good schools leave. And decent schools are not guaranteed to become awesome. Memphis does have some nice pieces in place. But who knows if they can be really good or not. It's not automatic.

 

[Carl Spackler]

Very interesting, I think, that the shiny new Barclays center in Brooklyn, and it's owners, chose to house the A-10 tourney, the same week, was the big east tourney at MSG. My guess is that's where this idiocy about the A-10 being on par w/ the big east comes from...............

But the more interesting thing - is that they chose to run the championship game on selection sunday - head to head with the ACC championship game, rather than on saturday night head to head w/ the big east at MSG........

AND....

The ACC - was walking up and down the street like a $2 hooker the whole time looking to get out of greensboro and atlanta w/ their b-ball tourney, and didn't get a single sniff.


I really feel bad for the syracuse folks I know, that are going to have to suffer through what that school's current management has done to them.

 

[whaler11]

Very interesting, I think, that the shiny new Barclays center in Brooklyn, and it's owners, chose to house the A-10 tourney, the same week, was the big east tourney at MSG. My guess is that's where this idiocy about the A-10 being on par w/ the big east comes from...............

But the more interesting thing - is that they chose to run the championship game on selection sunday - head to head with the ACC championship game, rather than on saturday night head to head w/ the big east at MSG........

AND....

The ACC - was walking up and down the street like a $2 hooker the whole time looking to get out of greensboro and atlanta w/ their b-ball tourney, and didn't get a single sniff.


I really feel bad for the syracuse folks I know, that are going to have to suffer through what that school's current management has done to them.

Yes this idiotic stance that no one has is idiotic. Those hypothetical people sure are idiots.

The A-10 championship game has been on Sunday for a while. It's the slot they get on CBS. Contrary to the boneyard's belief - not every thing in the world is a conspiracy.

 

[Carl Spackler]

Everybody and their mother in NY is talking about NYC being the basketball center of the universe in March, and how the A-10 and Barclays just went head to head with the Big East, and challeneged the big east - including the owners, the coaches, and the broadcasters (contracts for the A-10 held by both cbssports, and nbcsports.)

What train station are people going to Penn or Atlantic?


ALl that talk about the competition, for fans, for seats, for television, and they most definitely - PURPOSELY - didn't go head to head for the championship game.......

New York CIty will be the center of the college basketball universe come March for the next many years - just prior to the tournament...



and the ACC wasn't even given a pausing thought to be included - even with Pitt and Syracuse. THey took the A-10 into brooklyn, while the big east will be in manhattan.

And anyone who thinks that playing a tournament in either one of those venues, now, either manhattan or brooklyn.........isn't going to be HUGE springboard for recruiting? For those programs that actually have the people that are able and willing to go get the athletes and build tournament worthy teams?

Cuckoo. Cuckooo.


College hoops in NYC is going to be better than ever, and the big east tourney is still going to be huge, with the new comers.

 

[Carl Spackler]

I've enjoyed reading this discussion Pudge. I'm sure I'm not the only one.


The current value of college basketball in the large northeastern markets, when it comes to sports broadcasting, will be reality in the not too distant future.

 

[FfldCntyFan]

Carl, I don't question that some people (most likely A-10 sources) are saying this but I remember when the A-10 claimed they had surpassed the BE and that by adding a school in NYC (Fordham) the college basketball world would soon realize this as well.

 

[Dann]

in 10 years the a10 wont exist. its all noise.

-a couple top teams will join big east bball schools eventually in a power bball league
-some bottom feeders will merge with maac schools
-a few will go play football and move other sports eventually also