College basketball value in large markets

[freescooter]

Houston has more Final Four's in my lifetime than Pitt, WVU and ND combined. Temple and Memphis are very high level programs in cities that generate tons of top hoop talent. UCF and SMU are completely dead weight, although I seem to remember UCF scoring a pretty big win over a top program in a hotel conference room recently. Marquette, Villanova and Georgetown are pretty good programs.

This love for Houston is getting beyond rediculous. Houston is a nothing program on the same level asUMass. Maybe not that good. They were good once upon a time, but that was a quarter of a cenury ago or more. Ronald Reagan was Presdient. Terms of Endearment won the Oscar. The last time they won an NCAA game was 1984 Not that they've had many chances since then They've made a grand total of 4 trips since ten. Their 2010 bid was the first since 1992! Let's be real here. This isn't a serious program at the moment. It might be again some day. It might also be DePaul. In 16 years in CUSA they've had 5 winning seasons. That you remember Hakeem from when you were a kid is great, but Houston basketball hasn't been anything since he left for the NBA.

 

[freescooter]

whaler is abslutely right too about the split personality of this board. On the one hand, the Big East, apparently led by a resurgent Houston, is totaly unharmed by the loss of 4 of its top 10 programs, yet on the other hand, nobody would want to take the job as head coach of arguably the best program remaining in the conference, indeed one of the top 3 or 4 in the country. My viewis that we ought o be trying to land a major coach while we still have that reputation because if we screw it up we could well end up as Houston, a program that used to be important.

 

[uconnfan68]

whaler is abslutely right too about the split personality of this board. On the one hand, the Big East, apparently led by a resurgent Houston, is totaly unharmed by the loss of 4 of its top 10 programs, yet on the other hand, nobody would want to take the job as head coach of arguably the best program remaining in the conference, indeed one of the top 3 or 4 in the country. My viewis that we ought o be trying to land a major coach while we still have that reputation because if we screw it up we could well end up as Houston, a program that used to be important.

What top coach in their right mind would join this conference? No one knows when the next shuffle is coming. Unless a school is going to offer NBA coaching money no one will come here, and the best ones will leave for stable conferences. A stable conference is anchored by football... not basketball.

 

[Dann]

What top coach in their right mind would join this conference? No one knows when the next shuffle is coming. Unless a school is going to offer NBA coaching money no one will come here, and the best ones will leave for stable conferences. A stable conference is anchored by football... not basketball.

lary brown i would consider a top coach

 

[whaler11]

I'm not sure that this was their argument. My point (which I believe is what their argument also was) was that the names most people wanted to hear (Donovan, Miller) are already making what JC was making (Miller) or more (far more in Donovan's case), which would have forced us to pay JC's replacement more than what we were payihng JC (not a good move in my humble opinion) just to appease the few fans who wanted a name with a ton of juice attached to it.

If that is their point then sure. There other guys who can coach though - NC State for example looks to have hit a home run with Gottfried.

 

[whaler11]

lary brown i would consider a top coach

Who may never coach a game in the league based on his usual shelf life.

 

[IMind]

What has the Big East label done for Providence, Seton Hall, Rutgers, USF and DePaul? The bottom half of the Big East is going to generate a parade of games that no one wants to watch.

What has the Big East done for USF? The same USF that just last year went 22-14 and 12-6 in the Big East last year. They had two 20 win seasons in the 7 they've played in the Big East. They had a total of just two 20 win season in the 32 seasons they spent in the Sun Belt, Metro, and CUSA. Yeah they were a power house before they joined the Big East... and they've done nothing but get worse since.

 

[whaler11]

What has the Big East done for USF? The same USF that just last year went 22-14 and 12-6 in the Big East last year. They had two 20 win seasons in the 7 they've played in the Big East. They had a total of just two 20 win season in the 32 seasons they spent in the Sun Belt, Metro, and CUSA. Yeah they were a power house before they joined the Big East... and they've done nothing but get worse since.

They had one good season when their schedule was such a joke they went 12-6 in the Big East and sat on the bubble.

They generate no local interest, never mind national interest. They add nothing to the value of the television deal.

 

[freescooter]

Who may never coach a game in the league based on his usual shelf life.

LOL, I think Larry Brown just took 2 other jobs, quit them and is back at SMU again...

 

[Husky68]

What has the Big East label done for Providence, Seton Hall, Rutgers, USF and DePaul? The bottom half of the Big East is going to generate a parade of games that no one wants to watch.

When you lose Syracuse, West Virginia, Pittsburgh and Notre Dame - your label is no longer your label. It's like Mountain West trying to pretend they are the same league without Boise and TCU.

There seems to be an idiotic contradiction at play on this board. The NNBE is still some great league, UConn is a great basketball brand - but somehow there is no way that there would have been legitimate candidates for the head coaching job and there was no choice but Ollie. How are all three of those things true?

The legit candidate was Ollie.

 

[Husky68]

They had one good season when their schedule was such a joke they went 12-6 in the Big East and sat on the bubble.

They generate no local interest, never mind national interest. They add nothing to the value of the television deal.

Same could be said for Boise State the 1st year they won 10 games. You act like nothing changes, the Gipper movie had Villanova as one of the big time football powers. If VCU and Butler can win why can't USF and Houston do the same? A big time Houston program would capture a lot of press in Texas; UCF beat Uconn. Takes a couple of recruits to win a lot of games. 10 years ago were you predicting BCU would be the 5th best team (being generous) in Mass.

You know there can only be 25 teams in the top 25 right? And there are 35o Div 1 basketball teams. And other schools give out scholarships. And a league with Uconn, Louisville, Cin, Georgtown, Marquette isn't half bad at the top end and with Memphis, St Johns, Houston, USF and UCF aren't half bad in the middle and Depaul and Providence and Seton Hall and Rutgers and SMU as bottom feeders is better than a lot of leagues middle teams.

In the NBA draft and tv negotiations got to sell potential. UCF and USF graduate loads of students each year. Play in MSG, on TV, income gets you coaches and facilities, playing to the "lack of respect" card - we'll see in a few weeks what someone with actual money thinks of the value of the nnbe basketball. BE has hired some pretty good professionals, get a weak deal and proves your point as don't think it will be due to lack of execution.

 

[Pudge]

I'm absolutely perplexed at the attitude here. Did you not just watch Jim Calhoun BE climb over 26 years? Pitt & WVU & Georgetown & Marquette ... all have grown in MBB because of this conference. USF just had their finest year.

Are you just dense?

BE Basketball has been launching pad for Programs. It ain't close to the A10. WVU will be severely challenged to match their success in the B12. There's no guarantee. But, Houston is well positioned. If you match conference with a good Program builder & $$$ ... You can rise.

 

[whaler11]

I'm absolutely perplexed at the attitude here. Did you not just watch Jim Calhoun BE climb over 26 years? Pitt & WVU & Georgetown & Marquette ... all have grown in MBB because of this conference. USF just had their finest year.

Are you just dense?

BE Basketball has been launching pad for Programs. It ain't close to the A10. WVU will be severely challenged to match their success in the B12. There's no guarantee. But, Houston is well positioned. If you match conference with a good Program builder & $$$ ... You can rise.

If the Big East is a launching pad for everyone - please explain Providence, Seton Hall, DePaul, Rutgers, the last decade at SJU, the first decade of USF.

As for change, I'm quite aware things changed. You know what's a really big change? The departure of Syracuse, Pitt, Notre Dame and West Virginia. The new schools are not joining the same league, the 'badge' is not what it was. Hell, they are one departure away from joining a league that might cease to exist. I mean do you believe that Georgetown or Villanova is going to press on without Louisville or UConn?

You want to be excited about considering second rate CUSA programs lottery tickets? Knock yourself out - nobody outside of the NNBE message board Kool-aid drinkers agrees.

 

[Jericho]

Yet only three of them finished in the top 25 last year and 2 more got votes. Having 6-7 teams in the top 25 at the same time is not as easy as you may think.

I'd also add that Memphis is not as good as some may think. Post-Calipari, they missed the Tourney all together in 2010, then were a 12 and an 8 seed. Pre-Calipari, they sporadically made the tournament. Outside of a strong 4 year run with Calipari, Memphis basketball history is spotty. Sounds a lot like UMass.

I'm absolutely perplexed at the attitude here. Did you not just watch Jim Calhoun BE climb over 26 years? Pitt & WVU & Georgetown & Marquette ... all have grown in MBB because of this conference. USF just had their finest year.

Are you just dense?

BE Basketball has been launching pad for Programs. It ain't close to the A10. WVU will be severely challenged to match their success in the B12. There's no guarantee. But, Houston is well positioned. If you match conference with a good Program builder & $$$ ... You can rise.

It's not that things don't change. But one cannot automatically assume every program will get better simply by joining the Big East. One also cannot assume that the Big East of tomorrow will be the same as the Big East of yesterday. The old Big East was always in contention for being the best conference in the NCAA. I'd say it was the clear best conference for much of the last decade. I don't have that confidence moving forward. If you're no longer the best, maybe you lose some of the recruits you got in the past.

And no, Memphis and Temple don't exactly replace the departed schools. Notre dAme's recent tourney history is better than Temples. Almost any schools tourney history is better than Memphis once you account for the fact Calipari is gone. Neither school are crap. Both are basketball first universities in inner city locations. But people underappreciate how good West Virginia or Pittsburgh (10 straight tourneys and only once lower than a 5 seed) were. You don't replace those schools easily or immediately (if ever).

 

[Pudge]

whaler etc: You must be a bureaucrat ... or as the French say: a "functionaire. Maybe still in the Hartford insurance briefcase. You don't have an entrepreneurial bone in your body. Can't see how competition shaped this league.

The Big East conference has been a petri dish for multiple programs. It doesn't prove anything by promoting the exceptions (Seton Hall or Providence (though both have had their rises ... and falls)). Most of the West Virginia recent history is directly attributable to the Big East (NOTE: they have sucked more than they have been good in this conference). This conference embarrasses you if you don't keep up. It's highly competitive.

In your world, the A-10 is right there. Baloney

In your world, we have become the CUSA. pffft

It simply is NOT true. Memphis draws 20,000 & is getting a better platform in a region bursting with young talented kids. Marquette, with the BE tag, is one of the largest drawing Programs in the country ... and you act like you can do that at George Washington? St. Bona in Olean? And please don't go near academics because this is NOT about the schools stature. We'd never have gotten involved in a league that ranges from Seton Hall - UConn- Georgetown if that were ever considered.

Maybe you don't have that confidence moving forward. ACC stole something from the BE ... for the second time. But, this conference is not going anywhere below the top few. A National Championship will come from here. Meanwhile - the great Pac12 sucks; the B1G sucks intermittently; the WVU ... you praise ... may be Huggins KState 2.0. Good ... but off the radar. Our markets won't watch West Virginia v TCU/Iowa State/KState/Oklahoma/Oklahoma State/Baylor/Texas Tech. So 2 games a year ... maybe. And neither will be nearly as captivating as West Virginia v Villanova to the East.

 

[Pudge]

If the Big East is a launching pad for everyone - please explain Providence, Seton Hall, DePaul, Rutgers, the last decade at SJU, the first decade of USF.

USF's first decade = West Virginia's first decade.
USF's first decade = Pitt's first decade.

Look it up.

We lost Syracuse. And like Calhoun, all bets are off whether Mike Hopkins sustains that Program at a high level in less than 5 years.

 

[whaler11]

whaler etc: You must be a bureaucrat ... or as the French say: a "functionaire. Maybe still in the Hartford insurance briefcase. You don't have an entrepreneurial bone in your body. Can't see how competition shaped this league.

The Big East conference has been a petri dish for multiple programs. It doesn't prove anything by promoting the exceptions (Seton Hall or Providence (though both have had their rises ... and falls)). Most of the West Virginia recent history is directly attributable to the Big East (NOTE: they have sucked more than they have been good in this conference). This conference embarrasses you if you don't keep up. It's highly competitive.

In your world, the A-10 is right there. Baloney

In your world, we have become the CUSA. pffft

It simply is NOT true. Memphis draws 20,000 & is getting a better platform in a region bursting with young talented kids. Marquette, with the BE tag, is one of the largest drawing Programs in the country ... and you act like you can do that at George Washington? St. Bona in Olean? And please don't go near academics because this is NOT about the schools stature. We'd never have gotten involved in a league that ranges from Seton Hall - UConn- Georgetown if that were ever considered.

Maybe you don't have that confidence moving forward. ACC stole something from the BE ... for the second time. But, this conference is not going anywhere below the top few. A National Championship will come from here. Meanwhile - the great Pac12 sucks; the B1G sucks intermittently; the WVU ... you praise ... may be Huggins KState 2.0. Good ... but off the radar. Our markets won't watch West Virginia v TCU/Iowa State/KState/Oklahoma/Oklahoma State/Baylor/Texas Tech. So 2 games a year ... maybe. And neither will be nearly as captivating as West Virginia v Villanova to the East.

LOL. You are pretty good at spouting insults and misrepresenting what I say - I'll give you that.

Since you aren't real good with the reading comprehension I'll slow it down for you. As a television property the Big East shares a problem with the A-10. That problem is that it's a league with a large amount of members - and about half those members provide no value to the collective.

I have never said that the Big East had become CUSA in hoops. I am merely dealing with the reality that the five newest members are lesser programs than the four that have departed. This is an opinion shared by any sentient being with a pulse. It's still a good league but it's not what it once was - in prestige or quality of play.

I like how the successful exceptions prove something but the unsuccessful exceptions prove nothing. You want to buy junk bonds like SMU and try to pump them up good for you - I prefer to actually have evidence that something is going to work before it causes me to type random capital letters with my superjohn.

 

[Pudge]

You just love pissing on UConn & the BE. Your act has been tired & growing increasingly fatuous as the months have dragged on.

The Big East has a track record. The components that make it successful have only changed slightly on the basketball side. I'm NOT buying the power of the Mountaineers or Pitt without a conference laboratory like our conference. And, I believe solid basketball Programs with good coaching will thrive (ie. Fran Dunphy & Memphis). All others compete. There is NO flipping way a George Washington/St.Bona/StJoes/URI/UMass/Duquesne/LaSalle have a shot at that brass ring. NONE. Even a Seton Hall can have a top 35 program in the BE ... for a brief while.

I wouldn't give you the keys to an empty Radio Shack store.

 

[whaler11]

You just love pissing on UConn & the BE. Your act has been tired & growing increasingly fatuous as the months have dragged on.

The Big East has a track record. The components that make it successful have only changed slightly on the basketball side. I'm NOT buying the power of the Mountaineers or Pitt without a conference laboratory like our conference. And, I believe solid basketball Programs with good coaching will thrive (ie. Fran Dunphy & Memphis). All others compete. There is NO flipping way a George Washington/St.Bona/StJoes/URI/UMass/Duquesne/LaSalle have a shot at that brass ring. NONE. Even a Seton Hall can have a top 35 program in the BE ... for a brief while.

I wouldn't give you the keys to an empty Radio Shack store.

The guy who says UConn can't recruit coaching candidates is accusing others of pissing on UConn. That's an interesting stance. Thanks for following that up with rebuttals of arguments that no one is making.

The Big East or any conference is a collection of programs. Just because one collection of programs had a level of success it doesn't mean you can dump lesser teams under the same umbrella and expect the same results.

Maybe to you losing UConn's two biggest basketball rivals and four of the top 8 or so programs in the league constitutes a slight change.... sane people see it differently.

Luckily for me I don't need anyone like you to give me anything so I can rest easy tonight.

 

[Marty Jackson]

Yet only three of them finished in the top 25 last year and 2 more got votes. Having 6-7 teams in the top 25 at the same time is not as easy as you may think.

Do you really think that a tv deal is predicated on a conference having 6-7 teams ranked at the same time? There isn't a conference that could deliver that regularly. Not even sure why you chose to go there...
Regardless, the a-10 does not have a single program that can rival the top programs in the BE. The BE, in any given year, will have 6-7 teams with realistic chances for the tourney. That means a lot of meaningful games to broadcast.
We can debate the value of bb as a standalone entity all day long. Whatever that value is, the BE will be on the upper end of the spectrum when compared to any other league.

 

[Marty Jackson]

I haven't looked at who's top 25 or not, but if you look at the A-10 they have Xavier who is seemingly always top 20, They've recently added Butler and VCU. They have St Joes who has good history and while they have fallen off lately have been good in the recent past (not 1980, Pudge). they've got teams in major cities up and down the East Coast. They have some teams with history. They typically get 3 or 4 bids most years and I could see that going to 4-5 now with Butler and VCU. My view is that if a network wanted to market them as the up and coming conference, there is certainly something there to work with. And obviously they came cheap, so even if you spent money marketing them, you'd still be ahead of the game. And given that the Big East lost some well know programs, irrespective of what you think of their quality, and it faces a downgrade, the A-10 could get a bit of new life.

Please stop...
Uconn
UofL
Cincy
Marquette
Memphis
G'town
Villanova
St johns
Houston
Temple
these schools are 100 times better than anything in the a-10.

Listening to whaler suggest the BE would be a stretch to have 4-5 teams ranked while you now have the A-10 getting 4-5 bids is just lunacy.

 

[Marty Jackson]

whaler is abslutely right too about the split personality of this board. On the one hand, the Big East, apparently led by a resurgent Houston, is totaly unharmed by the loss of 4 of its top 10 programs, yet on the other hand, nobody would want to take the job as head coach of arguably the best program remaining in the conference, indeed one of the top 3 or 4 in the country. My viewis that we ought o be trying to land a major coach while we still have that reputation because if we screw it up we could well end up as Houston, a program that used to be important.

Please stop making dumb assumptions to prove your point...
Who said no one wanted the Uconn job. I didn't even know that the candidate list, or lack of, was disclosed. Please provide your reasons for thinking nobody wanted our coaching job. You don't like Ollie. That's fine. Just stop making up facts and arguments to support your position.

 

[whaler11]

Do you really think that a tv deal is predicated on a conference having 6-7 teams ranked at the same time? There isn't a conference that could deliver that regularly. Not even sure why you chose to go there...
Regardless, the a-10 does not have a single program that can rival the top programs in the BE. The BE, in any given year, will have 6-7 teams with realistic chances for the tourney. That means a lot of meaningful games to broadcast.
We can debate the value of bb as a standalone entity all day long. Whatever that value is, the BE will be on the upper end of the spectrum when compared to any other league.

Holy shit. I never compared the quality of play in the Big East to the A10. I also never brought up 6-7 top 25 teams - I pointed out it's a stretch to expect when someone else said it- maybe read the damned thread.

 

[Marty Jackson]

Of course the teams are very different but the idea that just having lots of winter content is a hoax. It has to be of quality. 4 top 25 teams is possible for the Big East. 6-7 is a serious stretch.

This is your quote... Did you not mention 6-7?
Maybe the problem is I read your quote but you didn't......

 

[whaler11]

When was the Contract done?

What is the content? How many games per year?

See .... markets move. You can cite that all you want. But, we have entered an entirely new age. Marketing, btw, is not going to help with Saint Bonaventure & URI etc etc. You can't just roll out the balls; there has to be some Value. If the BE positioned the Big Monday to be UCF versus SMU today, that's not worth much. But, I expect that we still will have 4-7 top 25 teams. With Brand Names.

Yeah Marty maybe if you read you'd see where the number came from prior.

 

[Marty Jackson]

Yeah Marty maybe if you read you'd see where the number came from prior.

So what did you mean when you suggested 6-7 teams would be a stretch, and then suggested 6-7 being ranked at the same time?

 

[whaler11]

So what did you mean when you suggested 6-7 teams would be a stretch, and then suggested 6-7 being ranked at the same time?

I meant exactly what I said. That having 4 teams in the Top 25 at the same time is a realistic goal. Having 6-7 ranked in the top 25 at the same time is a stretch.

 

[Marty Jackson]

I meant exactly what I said. That having 4 teams in the Top 25 at the same time is a realistic goal. Having 6-7 ranked in the top 25 at the same time is a stretch.

I release you...

 

[Jericho]

You just love pissing on UConn & the BE. Your act has been tired & growing increasingly fatuous as the months have dragged on.

The Big East has a track record. The components that make it successful have only changed slightly on the basketball side. I'm NOT buying the power of the Mountaineers or Pitt without a conference laboratory like our conference. And, I believe solid basketball Programs with good coaching will thrive (ie. Fran Dunphy & Memphis). All others compete. There is NO flipping way a George Washington/St.Bona/StJoes/URI/UMass/Duquesne/LaSalle have a shot at that brass ring. NONE. Even a Seton Hall can have a top 35 program in the BE ... for a brief while.

I wouldn't give you the keys to an empty Radio Shack store.

This I think is the major point of discontent. You attribute success to the conference, not the schools. I'd say most people see it the other way around. As in Pittsburgh is good because they have a good coach and a good program, not because being a member of the Big East made them good. You seem to think the Pittsburgh leaving the conference will automatically make them much worse, and whoever takes their place automatically will be come much better. I see no specific evidence to support this other than speculation, so you may understand the skepticism.

 

[Pudge]

That's right ... I do attribute the high quality played by Pitt & some others to the conference.

This BE conference has been COMPETE or you look foolish. Pitt looked liked crap for most of the period from 1982-1999. One Coach ... brought a style & sold the BE conference to kids. They became one of the best Programs in the conference. (the only thing unusual about Pitt is the easy transition to ... WAIT FOR IT ... an assistant who never had a HC position. hmmmmm).

See ... I don't think Notre Dame was good as an independent. Louisville & Cincy were not top quality... not getting to the highest level pre-BE (YES ... I know the Huggins record). USF, certainly, grew because thy got tired of getting their ass kicked (and Miami before them ... briefly).

This conference, in basketball, is special. And I don't believe losing ... in my view ... Syracuse & a few in our top tier ... is irreplaceable. Pastner ... oooo ANOTHER assistant without HC experience ... is building a nice Program. Getting top kids, he merely needs to get a few wins in the NCAA to be considered at a better echelon. I believe you will find two of the new Programs to be competitive on day One; maybe 3.

For whaler ...

really?
LaSalle
Fordham
George Washington
Saint Bonaventure
URI
UMASS

You really think they are near a Big East level? That's an embarrassing post. Bobby Gonzalez would have whipped all of 'em.