College Basketball Reaching a New ...Low?

[JavaMan]

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More discipline, hopefully. Heck, maybe even civil or criminal charges.

[MORE]

 

[RockyMTblue2]

I figure the kid and his agent are turning the moment into a T-shirt. "Don't get mad. GET EVEN!" When Yellowstone blows civilization will already be dead.

 

[UcMiami]

Listen - we grant women college players a mistake because of youth - Griner's punch being the most obviously glaring example, so I am willing to do the same for the guys - not sure how old he is, but ... Just because someone is 6'8" and 250 pounds does not mean he has a fully developed adult mind. He is being punished as he should be, but lets not equate this to anything more than it was, a moment of frustration, that hopefully he truly regrets. It was not a dangerous play that seriously threaten someone else health.

 

[vtcwbuff]

"It was not a dangerous play that seriously threaten someone else health."

The guy is a senior and he may have cost them the game. Except for the guy he tripped. Heat of the moment is understandable when two competitors get in a tussle but assaulting an official can't be tolerated.

The guy is a senior and he may have cost them the game.

Reminds me of Michaels tripping Auriemma. If I were his coach the guy would have played his last game. If nothing else, he should be canned for being stupid.

 

[JavaMan]

Listen - we grant women college players a mistake because of youth - Griner's punch being the most obviously glaring example, so I am willing to do the same for the guys - not sure how old he is, but ... Just because someone is 6'8" and 250 pounds does not mean he has a fully developed adult mind. He is being punished as he should be, but lets not equate this to anything more than it was, a moment of frustration, that hopefully he truly regrets. It was not a dangerous play that seriously threaten someone else health.

I was with you until your last two sentences. But, I don't agree with that last line at all. That trip could easily have taken the ref out of the game, landed him in the emergency room, lead to a career ending injury, or possibly even permanent paralysis. It's the same as a sucker punch, and all of those scenarios (and worse) have resulted from sucker punches. In my opinion, what he did was very serious, and his discipline should be appropriate.

 

[stamfordhusky]

I was with you until your last two sentences. But, I don't agree with that last line at all. That trip could easily have taken the ref out of the game, landed him in the emergency room, lead to a career ending injury, or possibly even permanent paralysis. It's the same as a sucker punch, and all of those scenarios (and worse) have resulted from sucker punches. In my opinion, what he did was very serious, and his discipline should be appropriate.

True. Also have to remember that referee Tommy Nunez is about 57 years old. He is a lot more likely to be injured in an incident like this than if a 20-year old player was the one who was tripped.

Reid, btw, has been suspended for four games.

 

[topogigio]

No excuse available for this behavior. Reid should be thrown off the team, arrested for assault. "Nuff said!"

 

[UcMiami]

No excuse available for this behavior. Reid should be thrown off the team, arrested for assault. "Nuff said!"

Get real - assault?! he tripped someone - yes, it is possible to die from a fall onto a hard flat surface, but it happens maybe once in a million times. Was the ref hurt, don't think so. Did he continue in the game, yes.

I was with you until your last two sentences. But, I don't agree with that last line at all. That trip could easily have taken the ref out of the game, landed him in the emergency room, lead to a career ending injury, or possibly even permanent paralysis. It's the same as a sucker punch, and all of those scenarios (and worse) have resulted from sucker punches. In my opinion, what he did was very serious, and his discipline should be appropriate.

Come on it was a little trip - definitely deserves suspension, not denying that, but ... equivalent to a sucker punch! I want what you are smoking.

 

[Sonny44]

Get real - assault?! he tripped someone - yes, it is possible to die from a fall onto a hard flat surface, but it happens maybe once in a million times. Was the ref hurt, don't think so. Did he continue in the game, yes.

Come on it was a little trip - definitely deserves suspension, not denying that, but ... equivalent to a sucker punch! I want what you are smoking.

WRONG!!!!!

 

[johnnyc]

Get real - assault?! he tripped someone - yes, it is possible to die from a fall onto a hard flat surface, but it happens maybe once in a million times. Was the ref hurt, don't think so. Did he continue in the game, yes.

Come on it was a little trip - definitely deserves suspension, not denying that, but ... equivalent to a sucker punch! I want what you are smoking.

I want what you are smoking. You're the one that thinks everything is cooool man.

He flopped and then he flipped.

 

[winlots]

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More discipline, hopefully. Heck, maybe even civil or criminal charges.

[MORE]

JAVA: just got to this thread. Good for you to post this stuff. Don't know about "charges" in a case like this (though perhaps you are right) ; but I DO know about civility and discipline and ejections and such.

 

[winlots]

I figure the kid and his agent are turning the moment into a T-shirt. "Don't get mad. GET EVEN!" When Yellowstone blows civilization will already be dead.

ROCK: or well before.

 

[winlots]

Listen - we grant women college players a mistake because of youth - Griner's punch being the most obviously glaring example, so I am willing to do the same for the guys - not sure how old he is, but ... Just because someone is 6'8" and 250 pounds does not mean he has a fully developed adult mind. He is being punished as he should be, but lets not equate this to anything more than it was, a moment of frustration, that hopefully he truly regrets. It was not a dangerous play that seriously threaten someone else health.

UcM: often on the same page with ya.....but this time, I can't be, right down to "HOPEFULLY" he regrets. Seems to me you are cutting this guy way too much slack. (By the way, I didn't grant Griner "a mistake because of youth"....just for the record.

 

[UcMiami]

I want what you are smoking. You're the one that thinks everything is cooool man.

He flopped and then he flipped.

I just think people are blowing a trip into something it just isn't - suspend him for the rest of the year for tripping an official - fine. Griner took a full swing at another player and connected and received what - 2 games. A trip is just not 'assault' and it certainly isn't a forceful act. It is definitely a bad thing that needs to be punished - but it certainly wasn't as dangerous as what happened to Gabby in a game a few weeks ago.

 

[VAMike23]

I was with you until your last two sentences. But, I don't agree with that last line at all. That trip could easily have taken the ref out of the game, landed him in the emergency room, lead to a career ending injury, or possibly even permanent paralysis. It's the same as a sucker punch, and all of those scenarios (and worse) have resulted from sucker punches. In my opinion, what he did was very serious, and his discipline should be appropriate.

"It's the same as a sucker punch"

Hmm -- so you think the fans' and media's reaction would have been the same had he followed the ref up the sideline for a few steps and then clocked him in the side of the head?

I agree that it's "very serious" and that this guy deserved to get thrown out and deserves suspension for crossing a bright line (physically messing with a ref) but if you give me the choice between getting sucker punched or being tripped while moving forward with my hands free , I'll choose the latter every time.

 

[vtcwbuff]

I just think people are blowing a trip into something it just isn't - suspend him for the rest of the year for tripping an official - fine. Griner took a full swing at another player and connected and received what - 2 games. A trip is just not 'assault' and it certainly isn't a forceful act. It is definitely a bad thing that needs to be punished - but it certainly wasn't as dangerous as what happened to Gabby in a game a few weeks ago.

UcM - I think you are missing the point - he assaulted an official and yes that sort of trip is an assault. Not a lawyer but I think that an intentional trip not only qualifies as a simple assault but it is also a battery since there was contact made.

 

[Rocket009]

I'd like these things to be taken more seriously. Sure you get a few games suspension, but add an automatic ban from post-season play and that'll clean it up quickly.

 

[meyers7]

I just think people are blowing a trip into something it just isn't - suspend him for the rest of the year for tripping an official - fine. Griner took a full swing at another player and connected and received what - 2 games. A trip is just not 'assault' and it certainly isn't a forceful act. It is definitely a bad thing that needs to be punished - but it certainly wasn't as dangerous as what happened to Gabby in a game a few weeks ago.

I think you're missing something here UcMiami, tripping, pushing, hitting, kicking, etc another player is one thing, but to do that to an official is in a completely different ballpark. Those two things cannot be compared.

Lashing out against officials cannot be tolerated. At all.

 

[JavaMan]

"It's the same as a sucker punch"

Hmm -- so you think the fans' and media's reaction would have been the same had he followed the ref up the sideline for a few steps and then clocked him in the side of the head?

I agree that it's "very serious" and that this guy deserved to get thrown out and deserves suspension for crossing a bright line (physically messing with a ref) but if you give me the choice between getting sucker punched or being tripped while moving forward with my hands free , I'll choose the latter every time.

Well, I guess, so would I. But, I'd prefer neither. However, I did not intend to imply that the "mechanics" were the same, only the "potential outcome." A sucker punch doesn't have to obvious or demonstrative. Nor does it have to be delivered to the head or face to be detrimental. Both a sucker punch and a blind trip have the potential to seriously and irreparably harm another. ANY intentional act by an individual to attempt to harm another (without their consent/participation) is criminal. It is also cowardly if the victim is blindsided.

For the record:
In some jurisdictions assault is defined as the threat of bodily harm that reasonably causes fear of harm in the victim while battery is the actual physical impact on another person. If the victim has not actually been touched, but only threatened (or someone attempted to touch them), then the crime is assault. If the victim has been touched in a painful, harmful, violent, or offensive way by the person committing the crime, this might be battery. Even a minor touching can qualify as batter providing it is painful, harmful, or offensive to the victim.

Regardless of which definition the jurisdiction uses, the broader definition of assault, or separate definitions for assault and battery, a crime of this nature in the first-degree (or aggravated) is classified as a felony. Depending on the state, it is punishable by 5-25 years in prison. A crime of this nature in the second degree is also usually classified as a felony, and depending on the state, is punishable by 1-20 years in prison. A crime of this nature in the third degree is usually classified as a misdemeanor, which means that the person will not spend more than a year in jail for the crime. This is the same for the jurisdictions that define assault as only the threat of bodily harm.

[source]

 

[UcMiami]

I think you're missing something here UcMiami, tripping, pushing, hitting, kicking, etc another player is one thing, but to do that to an official is in a completely different ballpark. Those two things cannot be compared.

Lashing out against officials cannot be tolerated. At all.

I am not saying it should be tolerated - I am saying that to equate a trip to a sucker punch is silly. It was a very stupid thing to do, it should be punish in a serious manner, but it doesn't need to be equated to serious acts of violence because it just wasn't 'violent'. I would equate it to intentionally bumping into an official or throwing a ball at an official, that gets dealt with by an ejection and a suspension which is what the game officials and the team have already done - we have yet to see what the conference or the NCAA may do.

And to say that if the penalty isn't harsh enough it will happen again - it will happen again regardless - adults let alone young adults/kids have moments of irrational behavior where no rational though it getting through to their brain, and certainly no though of consequences. The penalty has to be harsh enough to make sure it never happens when rational thought is involved and I think that is already the case. The trip of Geno in my view was actually a more serious problem because it didn't happen in the 'heat of battle' but after the contest was over.

We see player on player violence maybe a few times a year in basketball, we see player on official 'contact' maybe once every few years. In all sports worldwide the serious player on player stuff happens maybe every few weeks, and the player on official maybe once or twice a year. It is not an epidemic given the number of contests involved.

 

[meyers7]

I am not saying it should be tolerated - I am saying that to equate a trip to a sucker punch is silly. It was a very stupid thing to do, it should be punish in a serious manner, but it doesn't need to be equated to serious acts of violence because it just wasn't 'violent'. I would equate it to intentionally bumping into an official or throwing a ball at an official, that gets dealt with by an ejection and a suspension which is what the game officials and the team have already done - we have yet to see what the conference or the NCAA may do.

And to say that if the penalty isn't harsh enough it will happen again - it will happen again regardless - adults let alone young adults/kids have moments of irrational behavior where no rational though it getting through to their brain, and certainly no though of consequences. The penalty has to be harsh enough to make sure it never happens when rational thought is involved and I think that is already the case. The trip of Geno in my view was actually a more serious problem because it didn't happen in the 'heat of battle' but after the contest was over.

We see player on player violence maybe a few times a year in basketball, we see player on official 'contact' maybe once every few years. In all sports worldwide the serious player on player stuff happens maybe every few weeks, and the player on official maybe once or twice a year. It is not an epidemic given the number of contests involved.

I think I have to disagree with you. Tripping an official is worse than sucker punching another player. The "violence" part really doesn't matter as much as to whom it was done to.

 

[UcMiami]

Well, I guess, so would I. But, I'd prefer neither. However, I did not intend to imply that the "mechanics" were the same, only the "potential outcome." A sucker punch doesn't have to obvious or demonstrative. Nor does it have to be delivered to the head or face to be detrimental. Both a sucker punch and a blind trip have the potential to seriously and irreparably harm another. ANY intentional act by an individual to attempt to harm another (without their consent/participation) is criminal. It is also cowardly if the victim is blindsided.[source]

Interesting information, but I think the distinction I would make is that the 'reasonable expectation' of a sucker punch is to cause physical harm, the reasonable expectation of a trip is not to cause physical harm but to cause embarrassment. I suspect there are 100s of people intentionally tripped every day in the US with the intent of creating a 'funny' or 'embarrassing' situation and none with the intension of cause bodily harm.

On the legal front - I doubt any prosecutor would want to go to court to prosecute for a trip that caused no noticeable physical impairment for fear of being both thrown out of court by the judge and laughed at by all his peers.

 

[UcMiami]

I think I have to disagree with you. Tripping an official is worse than sucker punching another player. The "violence" part really doesn't matter as much as to whom it was done to.

But it is being dealt with in a more serious manner already - I am not arguing that. I am arguing that inflating stupid contact with an official not be conflated to assaulting an official - it is semantics to say a manager bumping chests with an official in baseball is 'battery' or 'assault' - technically as Javaman has pointed out it is assault or battery, just as technically tripping someone is the same, or towering over someone and verbally abusing them is as well.
And I would say that the sucker punch to Rudy Tomjanovich was a lot more serious than tripping an official - maybe in theory not but in results ...

 

[meyers7]

But it is being dealt with in a more serious manner already - I am not arguing that. I am arguing that inflating stupid contact with an official not be conflated to assaulting an official -

I wouldn't consider the trip to be "stupid contact". Certainly not the same as a "chest bump". Calling it "Assault", hmmm maybe.

And I would say that the sucker punch to Rudy Tomjanovich was a lot more serious than tripping an official - maybe in theory not but in results ...

I would disagree.

 

[EricLA]

I think you're missing something here UcMiami, tripping, pushing, hitting, kicking, etc another player is one thing, but to do that to an official is in a completely different ballpark. Those two things cannot be compared.

Lashing out against officials cannot be tolerated. At all.

For the record, neither can lashing out at another player. I agree with you in theory - but I'm not even sure why this should be compared to Griner's sucker punch (not that you are doing that).

It's a bad video that shows a player looking up at the ref, then sticking out his foot to trip the ref. There's no way to mistake his intent. I don't know what the punishment should be, because I don't know what the rules of MCBB state. But I would think a 3-5 game suspension would seem appropriate...