Coaching comparison on display in Louisville

[UcMiami]

I realized while watching Louisville dismantle LSU right after watching TN crumble against Maryland what a very graphic display of coaching and player development was on display.
I posit that both Simmons and Schimmel came into college as very similar players - flashy, streaky shooters, that dominated the ball and would go on streaks of hoisting crazy shots to the detriment of their team. Simmons actually had better physical gifts in being faster and quicker.
Now, four years later on the same court two hours apart they played for their teams in a critical game - one has just played her last college game and the other has at least one more game left. And the reason:
Coaching.
Simmons has had more talent around her for her four years but is leaving college primarily the same player she was when she first arrived - fast, streaky, and a player who dominates the ball to the detriment of her team.
Schimmel has led her team to solid success and in the process has transformed her game - she is still a streaky shooter but her whole game has improved incredibly and she is a very good teammate who balances her own offense with running the team and making everyone better.
Walz did this kind of coaching with Angel previously and his success in transforming Shonni's game without killing her magic has been very impressive. And Kudo's to Shonni herself - coaching can point the way but a player has to want it. I have been impressed with her even during her personal struggles against Uconn this year.

 

[VAUConnFan]

Your opinions may very well be valid. However, the stats tell a totally different story. Their respective stats are so similar that there is very little to separate them.
Louisville has enjoyed more success, but Tennessee's lack of success has less to do with Simmons than it does with the Tennessee teams being a particularly awkward fit and the fact that the Lady Vol program has been in upheaval. It is quite posssible that Coach Summitt's faculties left her long before it was acknowledged. That cannot be easy on anyone.

1. Louisville does not have Tennessee's WCBB pedigree, but still, the next Wade Trophy winner out of Louisville will be the first.
2. The next WNBA MVP out of Louisville will be the first.
2. The next WNBA Defensive Player of the Year out of Louisville will be the first.
3. The next player out of Louisville to sign a WNBA contract will be the second.

Tennessee players have done quite well in college and I suspect they will continue to do so. Tennessee bowing out in the third round means they are no worse than the 16th best team in the country at the end of the season. And you want to opine that Simmons is a detriment? At the end of the regular season, both the coaches and the writers had the Lady Vols ranked third in the country. Are you willing to go out on a limb to suggest they could have moved up on UConn and Notre Dame if Ms Simmons was better coached?

Looking over Ms Schimmel's four year career at Louisville, her stats have remained rather consistent. Where is the incredible improvement in her game?

 

[EricLA]

I'm still stunned Russell chose Tennessee. Want to see L'ville have way more success every year like this than Tennessee.

 

[sarals24]

Well, in her four year career, Schimmel has been to one more Final Four (and I suspect it will be two before she's done) than Simmons. And yes, Simmons is a detriment. She shoots way too much, doesn't get her teammates involved, and plays spotty defense. If they had better coaching than absolutely they could be a top five team instead of a top 16 team.

They have the players and the tradition, but the coaching isn't there. It hasn't been for a while. Pat's teams rarely ran offense and preferred to dominate the offensive boards and get points off turnovers. Well, that ship has sailed, and Candace Parker was just a stop gap. Rather than hire more of the same, UT should have searched for the best possible candidate and rebuilt the program. Instead, Holly is running the team the same way Pat did but without the same intangibles that Pat brought that seemed to get players motivated to win.

As for Schimmel, I've watched her for four years now and I have to say her game has improved immensely under Walz. She was overweight when she came in, took terrible shots and made no-look passes that rarely hit the mark. She plays much more under control now, can play longer and harder, makes smarter passes and gets others involved in the offense. I don't know how she'll do in the WNBA, but it's obvious that she's had more success on the collegiate level than Simmons.

 

[UcMiami]

Your opinions may very well be valid. However, the stats tell a totally different story. Their respective stats are so similar that there is very little to separate them.
Louisville has enjoyed more success, but Tennessee's lack of success has less to do with Simmons than it does with the Tennessee teams being a particularly awkward fit and the fact that the Lady Vol program has been in upheaval. It is quite posssible that Coach Summitt's faculties left her long before it was acknowledged. That cannot be easy on anyone.

1. Louisville does not have Tennessee's WCBB pedigree, but still, the next Wade Trophy winner out of Louisville will be the first.
2. The next WNBA MVP out of Louisville will be the first.
2. The next WNBA Defensive Player of the Year out of Louisville will be the first.
3. The next player out of Louisville to sign a WNBA contract will be the second.

Tennessee players have done quite well in college and I suspect they will continue to do so. Tennessee bowing out in the third round means they are no worse than the 16th best team in the country at the end of the season. And you want to opine that Simmons is a detriment? At the end of the regular season, both the coaches and the writers had the Lady Vols ranked third in the country. Are you willing to go out on a limb to suggest they could have moved up on UConn and Notre Dame if Ms Simmons was better coached?

Looking over Ms Schimmel's four year career at Louisville, her stats have remained rather consistent. Where is the incredible improvement in her game?

Well ... lets see ...
Simmons - Assists 80, TOs 93, A/TO = 0.86
Schimmel - Assists 142, TOs 89 A/TO = 1.60
Plus the eye test, plus the coaches comment - Holly today on why she sat Simmons for a long period in the second half: 'Well, we needed to get stops so we needed to bring in a better defender.' I am pretty sure Jeff has never sat Schimmel for that reason.
When I watch Schimmel play this year she is playing a really smart game - not a comment or description I would have used her first two years. When I watch Simmons play, I have never thought I am watching a 'smart' basketball player. My comment on the game thread was ... Simmons hit a 3 pointer with 5 minutes left in the first half, and I just knew that she would take every shot for the rest of the half. I was wrong ... she did go 0-5 in those five minutes, but Graves rebounded and scored on the rebound off one of her misses and in the last minute someone else got a shot.

 

[VAUConnFan]

Nice responses, but they do not settle the argument. My feelings about assists are well documented. Which is not to say that Schimmel is not a better passer. She always was.

Does the Final Four remark suggest that Schimmel alone is responsible for her team getting to last year's Final Four? Is basketball not a team game?

 

[DobbsRover2]

Nice responses, but they do not settle the argument. My feelings about assists are well documented. Which is not to say that Schimmel is not a better passer. She always was.

Does the Final Four remark suggest that Schimmel alone is responsible for her team getting to last year's Final Four? Is basketball not a team game?

Well documented how? Sure, if posters like you are going to narrow down your Shoni dump on solely shooting percentage, no she shoots about the same. But most of us who follow the WCBB game know that there are more aspects to it than just shooting. Shoni has broadened her game so that she has gone from a 1.2 to a 1.7 assist\TO ratio from freshman to senior year, and she'll end up pulling down 50 to 60 more rebounds. So she is a far more complete player and her team has risen along with her.

But sure VAUConnFan, if you just want to talk about shooting percentages and throw out all the other stuff, I'm sure we could maybe make Meighan Simmons into a POY candidate, or maybe not.

 

[UcMiami]

Nice responses, but they do not settle the argument. My feelings about assists are well documented. Which is not to say that Schimmel is not a better passer. She always was.

Does the Final Four remark suggest that Schimmel alone is responsible for her team getting to last year's Final Four? Is basketball not a team game?

I'll agree that any stats are limited but they do give some indications of what a player does. But if you want to throw them out, fine. I still fall back on the eye test. Simmons does whatever she wants on the basketball court and pretty much always has with no regard for her teammates or the game situation opt what her coach may or may not want. She takes wild shots in no discernible game flow and when she makes one she gets jacked up with her own greatness to the point where she will invariable take the next five shots her team gets - on occasion she gets hot and makes three or four of them and she looks 'brilliant' but for her team that is an even worse sign because it means she will continue shooting them for as long as she is on the floor.
Schimmel had those same tendencies early on in her career and loved the spectacular over the simply good play. With coaching and maturity she has reined in those tendencies and has expanded her game. She plays and shoots within the concepts of a very disciplined offense - she still makes some spectacular plays, but they or more considered and more likely to be successful and she is very good at going to what is working on offense, even when it does not include her getting to shoot.

 

[VAUConnFan]

Schimmel takes more shots, jacks up far more threes and shoots for a lower percentage. The eye test to which you refer is more a matter of perception.

 

[ndmb]

Well ... lets see ...
Simmons - Assists 80, TOs 93, A/TO = 0.86
Schimmel - Assists 142, TOs 89 A/TO = 1.60
Plus the eye test, plus the coaches comment - Holly today on why she sat Simmons for a long period in the second half: 'Well, we needed to get stops so we needed to bring in a better defender.' I am pretty sure Jeff has never sat Schimmel for that reason.
When I watch Schimmel play this year she is playing a really smart game - not a comment or description I would have used her first two years. When I watch Simmons play, I have never thought I am watching a 'smart' basketball player. My comment on the game thread was ... Simmons hit a 3 pointer with 5 minutes left in the first half, and I just knew that she would take every shot for the rest of the half. I was wrong ... she did go 0-5 in those five minutes, but Graves rebounded and scored on the rebound off one of her misses and in the last minute someone else got a shot.

I'm far from a Schimmel fan, but I don't think there's really a comparison here. Simmons is (was) a detriment to her team, Schimmel is not.

 

[VAUConnFan]

Well documented how? Sure, if posters like you are going to narrow down your Shoni dump on solely shooting percentage, no she shoots about the same. But most of us who follow the WCBB game know that there are more aspects to it than just shooting. Shoni has broadened her game so that she has gone from a 1.2 to a 1.7 assist\TO ratio from freshman to senior year, and she'll end up pulling down 50 to 60 more rebounds. So she is a far more complete player and her team has risen along with her.

But sure VAUConnFan, if you just want to talk about shooting percentages and throw out all the other stuff, I'm sure we could maybe make Meighan Simmons into a POY candidate, or maybe not.

I certainly am not trying to turn Simmons into a POY candidate. My concern is that she might be unfairly evaluated due to anti Tennessee bias or whatever other bias might be in play.

 

[UcMiami]

I certainly am not trying to turn Simmons into a POY candidate. My concern is that she might be unfairly evaluated due to anti Tennessee bias or whatever other bias might be in play.

And I tend not to be as brutal honest as my last post. And you are correct in identifying me as someone who really does not like the Vols, but that is a 'team' thing and is not part of my evaluation of players. I really admired Graves game with USA basketball and am really disappointed in her play this year and feel bad for her in that I can't believe this is what she thought she was signing up for. She could be a very good player and there was a strange tweet or statement by her that got reported that suggested life is not rosy midway through the year. I dislike ND intensely as well but can respect the players and the way they play. Simmons and the TN coaching however do not impress me at all.

 

[pvdoggy]

The small number of times that I have watched Simmons play, I always thought she was out of control, almost like she was playing too fast for her speed (both physical and mental). I always thought that she would be yanked from the game if Geno was her coach.

 

[VAUConnFan]

Meighan Simmons is the current SEC POY. Is the SEC so lacking in quality that a detriment to her team can be named POY?
Are the SEC coaches and writers so blind to good basketball that someone as detrimental to her team as Meighan Simmon is purported can be their POY? Admittedly, people are awarded undeservedly. But even the undeserved winners have considerable merit.
Meighan Simmons, in yesterday's loss was 9-22. The rest of her teammates were 10-31. How can Tennessee's loss be laid at her feet?

The eye test? Are some of you missing things that others see or do you see things that others don't? Or do you look at Ms Simmons with biased eyes? Something about her or her game that you just do not like that just does not conform to your concept of basketball?

 

[UcMiami]

Meighan Simmons is the current SEC POY. Is the SEC so lacking in quality that a detriment to her team can be named POY?
Are the SEC coaches and writers so blind to good basketball that someone as detrimental to her team as Meighan Simmon is purported can be their POY? Admittedly, people are awarded undeservedly. But even the undeserved winners have considerable merit.
Meighan Simmons, in yesterday's loss was 9-22. The rest of her teammates were 10-31. How can Tennessee's loss be laid at her feet?

The eye test? Are some of you missing things that others see or do you see things that others don't? Or do you look at Ms Simmons with biased eyes? Something about her or her game that you just do not like that just does not conform to your concept of basketball?

Having watched LSUs Ballard and a few players on SC and TA&M all I can think is the voting was split between 10 players each getting two votes and Simmons won with three. That was shocking to me when her own coach sits her because she needs another defender on the court. I honestly think that is more an indictment of the SEC than anything else. (Not sure who the voters were - coaches?) Heck the TN fans generally feel the team will be better off when Simmons leaves.

 

[ndmb]

Meighan Simmons is the current SEC POY. Is the SEC so lacking in quality that a detriment to her team can be named POY?
Are the SEC coaches and writers so blind to good basketball that someone as detrimental to her team as Meighan Simmon is purported can be their POY? Admittedly, people are awarded undeservedly. But even the undeserved winners have considerable merit.
Meighan Simmons, in yesterday's loss was 9-22. The rest of her teammates were 10-31. How can Tennessee's loss be laid at her feet?

The eye test? Are some of you missing things that others see or do you see things that others don't? Or do you look at Ms Simmons with biased eyes? Something about her or her game that you just do not like that just does not conform to your concept of basketball?

That one. If I were picking someone from Tennessee to be SEC POY, I would pick Harrison. Frankly, I think it's laughable (literally, I laughed) that Simmons got it over Mitchell.

And by the way, despite having several solid teams, the SEC does have a dearth of individual, developed, talent. I don't have single player from the SEC in my top ten, and I don't think I'm unusual in that respect.

 

[Sonny44]

Neither one could hold a candle to Bria who has benefitted from the UCONN team philosophy. And let's be clear i am not talking stats.

 

[Striper69]

I like LSU's Ballard. She really impressed me this weekend and I'll be watching her next year.

I can't really comment on Simmons (didn't watch enough of her games) but it seemed like every game I saw her in the announcers sooner or later made a negative comment about her shooting too much.

I hadn't seen Shoni play until this year so I can't comment on that either...

I do think she'll go before Simmons in the WNBA draft though.

 

[UConnCat]

I do think she'll go before Simmons in the WNBA draft though.

It'll be interesting to see how they go in the draft. Draft order is often a function of team needs, but in the case of Simmons and Schimmel we're talking about the same position.

 

[Striper69]

It'll be interesting to see how they go in the draft. Draft order is often a function of team needs, but in the case of Simmons and Schimmel we're talking about the same position.

Pretty much.

 

[KnightBridgeAZ]

Like many of you, I didn't care for Simmons game, and I'll even accept that her departure might be good for the Tennessee program in the long term. However, I will wager that Tennessee would have had a much worse record and much worse NCAA results if they didn't have Simmons the last 4 years. She was a "scorer" / "shooter" and that is what I suspect she was supposed to be in the Tennessee scheme of things.

 

[sarals24]

I think it's telling that USA basketball selected Shoni over Simmons last summer. And if you base things solely on shooting percentages, well, we all know that stats only tell part of the picture. A lot of Simmons' shots yesterday came at the end of the game when the defense was trying not to foul. And a lot of them came at the detriment of getting another, more open teammate, the ball. Shoni isn't a perfect player; far from it. But it is telling that her team (of which she is the undisputed leader) has had much more success in four years without the same caliber of players around her that Simmons has.

 

[UConnCat]

Like many of you, I didn't care for Simmons game, and I'll even accept that her departure might be good for the Tennessee program in the long term. However, I will wager that Tennessee would have had a much worse record and much worse NCAA results if they didn't have Simmons the last 4 years. She was a "scorer" / "shooter" and that is what I suspect she was supposed to be in the Tennessee scheme of things.

I agree. She scored a lot of points and others will have to make up those points. She stretched the defense and gave post players room to operate. She was the only Tenn perimeter player willing to take shots when they were trying to mount a comeback against Maryland. Carter and Reynolds were a combined 1-11 and as freshmen were clearly overwhelmed by the moment.

 

[Jaydub]

Awhile back I ran the top WNBA draft candidates through Danny Miles Value Point System. It's a formula that takes positive and negative statistics and outputs a single number (value points), as a way of evaluating players. Simmons came in dead last. Now it's true that shooting guards tend to rate lower in value points than posts or pure point guards. And I'm not saying she's a bad player, far from it. It's just that in that particular rating she doesn't stack up very well among other elite players.

All of UConn's players rate very highly in value points BTW. Kudos to the UConn coaching staff.

 

[ndmb]

Awhile back I ran the top WNBA draft candidates through Danny Miles Value Point System. It's a formula that takes positive and negative statistics and outputs a single number (value points), as a way of evaluating players. Simmons came in dead last. Now it's true that shooting guards tend to rate lower in value points than posts or pure point guards. And I'm not saying she's a bad player, far from it. It's just that in that particular rating she doesn't stack up very well among other elite players.

All of UConn's players rate very highly in value points BTW. Kudos to the UConn coaching staff.

So, this is kind of an aside, but doesn't the fact that shooting guards tend to rate lower point out the impossibility of ranking players accurately based on an amalgamation of box score statistics? And if so, aren't the individual statistics more meaningful separately than together? I'm much less dismissive of weighted amalgamations than non-weighted ones (like efficiency or the BRATS system that so many boneyarders feel strongly about), but I still don't get how it wouldn't be more useful to just look at a box score.