Coach Warlick feels her team is very sensitive..

[DobbsRover2]

the crippling sense of self-loathing that the Lady Vols seem to have.

Wow, with fans like this...

Well, with the fans anyway there's a lot of self to loathe. Love having a review center around gator shooting, as it is just so ....... maybe not exactly Tennessee, but SEC. I'm hoping that dd writes up the next UConn preview with a lead about bull-riding and jabbing in those spurs and doing all the things that CT yankees are known for.

 

[doggydaddy]

Well, with the fans anyway there's a lot of self to loathe. Love having a review center around gator shooting, as it is just so .. maybe not exactly Tennessee, but SEC. I'm hoping that dd writes up the next UConn preview with a lead about bull-riding and jabbing in those spurs and doing all the things that CT yankees are known for.

It would more be about selling insurance.

 

[jsloanjr]

This post has taken some funny winding turns since last Tuesday. For the most part, all the post were funny and positive like the character on this board.....GO VOLS!!!........

 

[DobbsRover2]

It would more be about selling insurance.

Doubt you'll need to sell me anything to insure a Husky win on Sunday, though the Bulls certainly aren't the weakest of AAC teams. But I'll wear the Perfect 39-0 shirts the next two days for insurance that the mojo stays strong.

 

[arty155]

It would more be about selling insurance.

 

[LadyVols9]

i like this thread. i would only add that the TN program has been through a lot with pat's illness, and that's really a huge understatement. she is the bedrock of an entire University. the past few teams dealt with so many real life emotional issues that other TN teams did not. the past few years have dug a hole for the current team to climb out of. with the pressures of being a lady vol, the fans, and school work, i certainly don't envy them at all.

the current players are entering a new era, but they are still working their butts off to live up to past successes and history. it will not happen overnight. when geno leaves UCONN, it will be just as challenging for the program AND for your fans. they are both icons to their programs. the players at TN are super talented and showed that for half of the ND game. if they can put together 40 mins of play, they could be a formidable opponent to anyone. there is a lot of work to do but lady vol nation will support these ladies as they bring TN back to the top.

 

[RSHERMVIKES]

TN has become totally irrelevant in WCBB! They have one PLAYER, Harrison! After her is a bunch of no guts front runners! It boggles my mind why a great HS player would even look at TN! With choices of Stanford, Duke, L'ville, UCONN, Tx AM, Baylor, PSU, MSU, OKSt, TX, Calif, why would you go to TN? MD & NoCar has great recruiters but lousy game coaches in Brenda & Sylvia! Holly W. can't coach at a Div.I level!

 

[willtalk]

i.-------- TN program has been through a lot with pat's illness, and that's really a huge understatement. she is the bedrock of an entire University. the past few teams dealt with so many real life emotional issues that other TN teams did not. the past few years have dug a hole for the current team to climb out of. with the pressures of being a lady vol, the fans, and school work, i certainly don't envy them at all..

That is the Vol programs major problem. As others have mentioned the decline of the program began while she was still in charge. I remember their was a discussion on "The Summit" about the elephant in the room. No one wanted to see reality. They would let Pat decide when it was time for her to quit. When in fact her very illness made her incapable of deciding when she was no longer able to handle her job. She could, at best, only realize it well after the fact. But no one wanted to or dared to hurt their icons feelings. Which I don't think they would have done by being honest with her. It was all about maintaining Pats image so in result the program was thrown under the bus. How can you protect a legacy by destroying the product and future of that legacy?

As to the statement and attitude held by many Vol fans that " she is the bedrock of an entire University". No individual is or should ever be considered "the bedrock" of anything. Such beliefs are roots for either dysfunction or destruction. Idols do not create themselves but are instead created to fill the emotional needs of their very creators. The problem with those created Idols is that inevitably crumbling fragments will fall upon the heads of those who are bent down in worship before them.

 

[Bayareahusky]

Pat's final years at the helm are collectively an interesting conjecture as to what happened when.....After Candice left in 08, UT ran into Ball state in the NCAAs in 09, and haven't been back since.... Some say that UT's lack of success the last 5 1/2 years is due to the confusion and transition from Pat going forward.....

One thing that is apparent to me.... it seems like during the latter part of her tenure, the game had changed from Pat's glory years.... There was no more....."play hard defense and rebound" as a game plan..... a good game coach could outduel this plan.....

Another thing that changed was recruiting.... Angie Bjorklund was the #2 recruit in the country in 07 I think.... she didn't do much at UT.... Shekinna Stricklen was a wonderful player.... I liked watching her play.... but she never took her team to the Final Four..... Pat seemed in the last few years to recruit good athletes rather than team players.... bring Ariel to TN and tell current players that the High school senior was to be the starting PG the following year.... and saying in the press how the team would lear from this High schooler.... wonderful players.... but little in terms of results.....

and then Holly comes in 11-12 season (when she ran the team.... Pat not involved).... and has had 2 1/2 years .... I had expected more progress than I have seen to date.... they don't seem to be a team....

LadyVols9 talks o the emotional issues that recent UT teams have had to deal with..... I think one can only allow so much credence to this.... before you pull your socks up and return to normalcy..... and LV9, what you say about the current players "working their butts off".... I just do not see it..... the announcers for the ND game scolded them on camera for Jogging up and down the court during ND fast breaks ... there was little hustle in the LVs in the 2nd half Monday.... and many times over the past 3 years..... I have born witness to a severe lack of heart... and will to win.....

The overarching conundrum is almost everyone is in agreement that UT has the players who should be accomplishing great things.... but something is sadly missing..... What is it?

 

[UcMiami]

Bayarea - nice post and I agree with what you say. Except. I would look back before the Parker era on recruiting and coaching. There are a few players each decade that really do rise up above their surroundings and Parker was one of those players. But success for Parker didn't come until Pat reached into the JC ranks to finally get a PG in Bobbitt. From the 2000 season on when I really became a serious WCBB fan, Pat was always getting good recruits but they were often doubling up on positions recruited in the prior year or even in the same year and there would seem to be almost a tag team nature to the rotation. I never got the sense she was recruiting a team, just recruiting the best talent she could get. And by 2000, the influx of more serious basketball programs was beginning to dilute the talent available to any one team which hurt TN the most as they had been the 'big dog' for so long. Pat also loved her posts and I think took less interest and put less effort into finding HS guards - Bobbitt was initially viewed as sort of a desperation move when 2005-6 proved they had no PG. (It worked out really well and she had a 4 year WNBA career as well.)
As for the coaching - in the same period AAU travel teams were just becoming big business and the HS kids were starting to play more and practice less so they were getting to college maybe with more athletic skill, but weaker fundamentals. College coaches needed to be teaching more, and some were better prepared for that than others. It also marked the beginning of big salaries for WCBB coaches and an influx of better basketball coaches into the women's game. And I would say the beginning of the end of the road for a number of the old school long time coaches - Conrad and Portland come to mind but also maybe Landers, Foster, Hatchell, and Summitt who didn't or haven't been able to adapt or to achieve the same kind of results that they did pre 2000.
That last may sound a little harsh, but how many here would choose Pat circa 2004 over Tara or Muffet or Gary or Sherri or Jeff to coach their kid?
And I would put Holly in that old school frame work though she is new to the HCing ranks - I thought last year that there might be something there as I thought TN did better than expected, but I don't see any progress this year.

 

[Bestiarius]

i like this thread. i would only add that the TN program has been through a lot with pat's illness, and that's really a huge understatement. she is the bedrock of an entire University. the past few teams dealt with so many real life emotional issues that other TN teams did not. the past few years have dug a hole for the current team to climb out of. with the pressures of being a lady vol, the fans, and school work, i certainly don't envy them at all.

the current players are entering a new era, but they are still working their butts off to live up to past successes and history. it will not happen overnight. when geno leaves UCONN, it will be just as challenging for the program AND for your fans. they are both icons to their programs. the players at TN are super talented and showed that for half of the ND game. if they can put together 40 mins of play, they could be a formidable opponent to anyone. there is a lot of work to do but lady vol nation will support these ladies as they bring TN back to the top.

Seems to me there are a lot of Vol fans eating their young and old (the coaches). As time passes, Pat's stature grows to the detriment of the program. Like with myself, the older I get, the better I was.

There is an old adage in business. Find the indispensable persons and fire them. Unfortunately, there is currently no indispensable person in Vol land.

 

[DobbsRover2]

I still think the guy who works the clock at TBA is indispensable for the Vols. Could really help them out in those mid-Feb games versus Vandy and KY.

 

[BRS24]

As for the coaching - in the same period AAU travel teams were just becoming big business and the HS kids were starting to play more and practice less so they were getting to college maybe with more athletic skill, but weaker fundamentals. College coaches needed to be teaching more, and some were better prepared for that than others.

Geno mentioned this a while back, saying that he has to do more coaching today than he used to, and I bet it was in reference to "how" to play basketball, and all those little fundamentals that get pushed aside when AAU teams are playing more games than practices. I used to coach youth soccer and we had two practices during the week and two games on weekends, and sometimes I wished it could have been different. And when some of the parents suggested that we try to play more games during the week, I shook my head and was thankful that I would soon be done coaching.

 

[UcMiami]

Geno mentioned this a while back, saying that he has to do more coaching today than he used to, and I bet it was in reference to "how" to play basketball, and all those little fundamentals that get pushed aside when AAU teams are playing more games than practices. I used to coach youth soccer and we had two practices during the week and two games on weekends, and sometimes I wished it could have been different. And when some of the parents suggested that we try to play more games during the week, I shook my head and was thankful that I would soon be done coaching.

Yes - and in the last Geno show when they did the focus on coaching process one of his comments that stood out to me was that he had coached high school basketball which meant he had to teach really really bad players how to play - taking kids that couldn't shoot or pass or dribble or rebound and finding a way to make them somewhat productive on the court. That teaching aspect of his training he sees as an advantage he has over many other coaches who have only worked in the college ranks with kids that have passed a certain skill level.

 

[Bayareahusky]

Good commentary UcMiami and others….. I enjoy hearing other folks and their individual and collective takes on what has happened with the UT program…. Yes, UcMiami, your comments on Parker are well taken…. She was such a seminal player, and UT owes her an interminable debt of gratitude…. I am glad they celebrated her at the recent LSU game….. she deserved that accolade….. and you are so spot on on Pat’s recruiting….. let’s get the best available talent….. perhaps without regard as to how they play together, whether they are individual performers or team-first disciples….. Of course, Pat’s blind lashing out (oh, you did something bad, and you know you did!!!!….. 7 years later…. Exactly what did we do?)….. was exactly coincident with a watershed mark in recruiting….. when we went into the deep south and recruited Maya Moore. That had long been roped off as LV territory…. Maybe an occasional recruit got away to the SEC rivals….. but for the most part, if you were a top national player and lived in the South, you went to Tennessee…..

Thank goodness we have GA, CD, and others….. I love and respect how the coaching staff demands excellence from their players….. From my job in corporate management- We always expected perfection, yet know we will never fully achieve it… but if you do not seek it, how is it going to come to you, serendipitously perhaps? That is what struck me about the “sensitivity” comment from Holly…. Something tells me that the UT coaching staff is taking that whole thing to the next step in terms of coddling its players….. they have so far to go in terms of fundamentals…. Although they are very talented individually….. and I get the impression that the LV coaches are not doing the full job….. I get the feeling every time I see senior class and presumptive team leader Simmons go off on her undisciplined “run and gun” shows…. I get the feeling when I see a lack of hustle and/or heart….. I get the feeling when I see operationally 5 players rather than one cohesive team connected to the head and the heart….. most of these instances would be perfect opportunities to call a timeout…. And sit non-performers and more importantly… non-compliant ones on the bench…. But it doesn’t happen…. I do not know why… only can assume a lack of talent at the coaching position(s)…. Because I do believe TN has good and coachable players…..
I
read somewhere…. Perhaps on this forum … a few weeks ago….. one of Geno’s tenets on coaching….. he said that most coaches work on things until they get it right. He said that he strives to work on things until they cannot get it wrong. Those sorts of things are part and parcel of the nuances in coaching that is omnipresent nowadays….. I like the earlier comment on passé coaches…. Wow, there were some names that I hadn’t thought about in a while….. but the Hatchells (glad her health is better) and Fosters of the game….. It certainly is not your mother’s WCBB game any longer…… WCBB today ain’t beanbag, and while WCBB has a ways to go regarding depth of talent at a national level, we are still light years ahead of how it was in the mid 70s when Pat started…..

With regard to the overarching snapshot in Knoxville….. I often wonder what affect the current circus in the athletic dept. at UT has on the Lady Vol program…. They have fired people…. Pared down all areas of the athletic department…. But specifically …. Seemingly deemphasized womens sports…. Gotten rid of female employees in the department….. to retro back to the disproportionate days of pre-title 9…. It is sad to see …a bellweather program taking backward steps such as they have…… what is the forecast for the UT athletic dept….. ?? Will they seek to recapture the past glory of LV lore, or will they first seek to heal the hemorrhaging presently seen with the football and mens hoop program? Don’t know, but I have my guess.

And what of Holly as the figurehead of the LVs? She got $65K increase as a reward for the “great job” of bringing home an SEC championship….. the bar needs to be much higher in Knoxville.

 

[LadyVols9]

again, you all are really underestimating the difficulties of a transition from a sick legend who had to retire because of an illness to a new coach. she was there for almost FORTY YEARS. think about that. God forbid UCONN ever has to deal with that specific issue but it is not easy. that's the reality on the ground. do i think they will persevere? absolutely! but many of you and many Vol fans think it should just magically happen overnight. it will take some time, but it will happen. TN plays in a great conference and the fan base is not going anywhere. women's basketball is a way of life in TN, and the lady vols are the top dogs in town. it will be a very exciting day when the program finally turns the corner.

 

[DobbsRover2]

again, you all are really underestimating the difficulties of a transition from a sick legend who had to retire because of an illness to a new coach. she was there for almost FORTY YEARS. think about that. God forbid UCONN ever has to deal with that specific issue but it is not easy. that's the reality on the ground. do i think they will persevere? absolutely! but many of you and many Vol fans think it should just magically happen overnight. it will take some time, but it will happen. TN plays in a great conference and the fan base is not going anywhere. women's basketball is a way of life in TN, and the lady vols are the top dogs in town. it will be a very exciting day when the program finally turns the corner.

No, I don't think there's much underestimation of an incredibly difficult task it is turning the Vols program around at this point. Besides all the issues with the AD and recent issues with the men's coaches in football and basketball, you have the additional problem that the Vols haven't gone really bad, they're just not meeting past expectations. As they say, sometimes you need to crash and hit bottom to really revive and come back strong, but there's no real consensus at UTenn about what needs to be done because there has been no crash, just a slide down to a lower level. They're in a muddle.

And though having Pat as the legend in the seats can be comforting, she is also a big psychological stumbling block to making any transformative changes. The post-Pat era probably needs to play out for a few more years before big steps toward progress can be made, and likely a younger coach than Warlick with a better handle on the modern game will need to be brought in. And I can well understand that Hart does not really want to tackle any changes for the Lady Vols as it is a no-win situation for him and a minefield to step into while Pat is still close by.

 

[UcMiami]

Bay Area - I also wonder about the department situation at TN - Pat had built her own fiefdom within athletics and so not only did you have the coaching change but inevitably without Pat's power behind them, there were bound to be some administrative changes. We see some gory headlines but have no real idea of the internal structure and changes. There had to be a level of perk that Pat had built up over the decades that was likely to be dismantled with a new head coach and those left behind would obviously feel resentment and would push back. The question from outside - is that all this is, or does it go deeper and reflect a diminishing of women's sports. Has there been a sexist shift in employment or is it a balanced recalibration of overall staffing?
And don't kid yourselves that Uconn may not experience some similar issues when Geno/CD leave - in 20+ years of building and arriving and staying at the top, Geno has structured and cajoled and fought for a lot of things for the women's basketball team (as I am sure Calhoun did for the men.) He has had his say in who is hired and fired within the program's support staff and to some degree across the department. And I would not be surprised to discover that some people have resented his and his program's power. When he is gone there will be changes. That happens everywhere in all walks of life. The hope is that it is a measured and 'quiet' process that doesn't change much of the outward product.

 

[RockyMTblue2]

Candace Parker both obscured and accelerated the decline of Tenn basketball. She gave the program 3 years to pretend the game had not passed Pat Summit by, while her ball hogging and the all to willing enablers on her team left little behind when she left the program. Some Tenn rooters think that it will take until the end of next year before Holly may be eased out. Clearly that is needed.

 

[LadyVols9]

Candace Parker both obscured and accelerated the decline of Tenn basketball. She gave the program 3 years to pretend the game had not passed Pat Summit by, while her ball hogging and the all to willing enablers on her team left little behind when she left the program. Some Tenn rooters think that it will take until the end of next year before Holly may be eased out. Clearly that is needed.

oh dear. check ur sources on that. you can get a UCONN or TN fan to say just about anything. holly is in her second year and just got an extension. she won SEC coach of the year. that's simply not the case.

 

[Bayareahusky]

LadyVols9 -

I want to err on the side of fairness, but still would expect UT to be making a run at the top by now..... Yes, Pat got sick, and that was terrible.... understood there,,, but, well in a UC scenario.... if GA had to abdicate for whatever reason, and Chris Dailey who is top assistant with almost as much tenure as Holly..... took over the program, and we could shoot a snapshot 2 1/2 years into her head coaching gig, I would HOPE we would be further along than Holly is.... I have no animosity toward Holly Dean Kyra, etc.... but just don't think they are gettin' it done

Not saying it isn't tough..... I would just expect more....

Yes, the LVs will persevere..... and I hope fan fervor will carry on...... Good luck to you going forward, and whatever the stumbling blocks are that are holding the team back.... hope they can be corrected by tournament time.

 

[LadyVols9]

LadyVols9 -

I want to err on the side of fairness, but still would expect UT to be making a run at the top by now..... Yes, Pat got sick, and that was terrible.... understood there,,, but, well in a UC scenario.... if GA had to abdicate for whatever reason, and Chris Dailey who is top assistant with almost as much tenure as Holly..... took over the program, and we could shoot a snapshot 2 1/2 years into her head coaching gig, I would HOPE we would be further along than Holly is.... I have no animosity toward Holly Dean Kyra, etc.... but just don't think they are gettin' it done

Not saying it isn't tough..... I would just expect more....

Yes, the LVs will persevere..... and I hope fan fervor will carry on. Good luck to you going forward, and whatever the stumbling blocks are that are holding the team back.... hope they can be corrected by tournament time.

thanks bayarea for the nice comments. i would only note that holly has been coaching for a 1 and a half. that's it. how far should she be right now? undefeated? TN has missed several FF's and will need time to regain its confidence and footing in a world where WCBB is much more competitive than before. anyone who expected things to be magically cured in one calendar year was not being realistic.

Dailey would face immense problems in perception and in reality if Geno stepped aside. nothing she did would ever be good enough. her comparisons to Geno would be nonstop and it would drive you guys NUTS. it is a very tough position for any coach to take over for a legend. as for kyra and dean, i respectfully disagree. dean is a master at developing post players (i.e. candace, glory, harrison and so on) he will turn Mercedes into a powerhouse. i realize those comments may draw some ire from the Boneyard but he is a very good post coach. MR needs time too. kyra is a recruiting guru. she is tough as nails and brings old school fire to the program. she was a lady vol and a defensive stopper. she helped make KY a better program. don't forget this coaching staff has only been together for a year. it simply takes time.

i am thrilled with our staff and new players. we have several great players coming to the program in 2014. in reality, TN needs another year or 2 to get back its serious mojo. just my two cents. not the gospel.

 

[msf22b]

i am thrilled with our staff and new players. we have several great players coming to the program in 2014. in reality, TN needs another year or 2 to get back its serious mojo. just my two cents. not the gospel.

The problems I see are a continuing repetition of issues that surfaced in Pat's last year or two, perhaps even earlier.
So it's at least four years in; that makes the issues chronic.
Good players come, good players go; the product is seeming the same.

On D: they don't guard the three point line well and allow speedy guards to penetrate and once in, the help D is often non-existent.
On O: they don't protect the ball, do not systematically feed the front court very well and seem not to run much in the way of organized plays or approaches to getting the best shots.

And they have difficulty competing for 40 minutes.

None of this has to do with heart or even personnel.
Why would any of this change with new player x or y

It all comes down to coaching.

 

[LadyVols9]

well we saw a TN team play a very good 1st half against ND. they basically dominated ND on both ends of the floor. if they can muster up that intensity for 40 minutes, i have faith in their ability to play with anyone. i agree it's about coaching. we will see how it pans out i guess.

 

[Phil]

well we saw a TN team play a very good 1st half against ND. they basically dominated ND on both ends of the floor. if they can muster up that intensity for 40 minutes, i have faith in their ability to play with anyone. i agree it's about coaching. we will see how it pans out i guess.

Sorry, but I cannot let this pass.

I watched the game. TN looked good offensively in the first half. Shooting 67%, sixteen of their first 24 shots will make any team look good offensively.

But you did say both ends of the floor.

Did you notice that the LVs gave up 41 points in the first half? That's on pace for an 82 point game. Do you know how many teams give up fewer than 82 points a game?

339

Do you know how many teams give up more than 82 points a game?

9

No way, no how can giving up 41 points in a half qualify as dominating defense.