Chong isn't going anywhere!

[UcMiami]

though very good news, no surprise.

but this is weird:
If two guard positions open up, it will likely be a three-way battle between Gabby Williams (started 12 of 38 games), Napheesa Collier (started nine of 38 games) and Chong, who started three of the 33 games she played in, despite injury.

Napheesa is not playing guard....

She is listed in the roster as Guard/Forward as is Lou, in fact the roster is all guards with one center (Butler) and two forwards (Stewart and Tuck.)
But yeah - the official roster lies! Just another way Uconn stretches the rules in an underhanded and deceptive way!!!!

 

[UcMiami]

Had no idea people thought Chong would transfer. I've never thought that. Plus she's a senior, seems to enjoy being at UConn, likes her teammates (she's closest with TLaw), and is close to home. I always got the sense that she didn't care when she got in the game and was a team player. I think her biggest issue is lack of consistent focus. When she's on, she's on. When she loses focus for a minute she gets beat on defense which no doubt ticks off Geno.

I think this is probably the same kind of thing that Kiah got through her four years whenever she went home - 'So where are you going to transfer seeing as you aren't getting to start and your playing under 20 minutes a game?
We have some posters here that can't understand why players who don't get to start (especially as freshman) should be on the next bus out of town. Go figure.

 

[BroadwayVa]

When you've experienced 3 defections in 3 years, the thought of a player leaving is not beyond belief. Breanna Banks left after her junior year for Penn St., Last year, Sadie Edwards left for the University of Southern California during the Christmas break of her freshman year, and freshman De'Janae Boykin followed suit and transferred to Penn State during the Christmas break this season.

So yes, A UConn player(s) going over the wall at the end of the season was not unimaginable. Unexpected, but not unimaginable.
Boykin, was an academic issue, Edwards was a parental, more PT issue, Banks miss judged her potential playing time with the incoming Frosh--she could have been an asset. I doubt any of these, save Banks, really bothered Geno or the coaching staff in a negative way. There are players that take up coaching time and effort that the staff knows are not truly worth the effort--so they play in "clean up time". To me they would do everyone a favor if they transfer.
Geno has expressed this often in past years---His time is spent heavily with Frosh, a bit less with Sophs, even less as Juniors and Seniors are expected to know how to play, defend, and Geno's ways--so as players move from year to year and they haven't t progressed they can expect not much coaching and a lot more sitting time.
Those who reach the end of the Soph year and have not progressed should think of transferring for the good of the team. No reflection on UConn, the team or the Coaching staff..

 

[UcMiami]

Defensively KLS played all five positions on the floor at times this year, and offensively she played four and did a fair amount of posting up, but not as a real center.

 

[DesertFox]

I think Lou needs to develop better footwork inside as well more variety driving to the hoop, left to right, right to left and straight at it. Combine better interior foot work with better upper and lower body strength and she'll be very tough. Clearly Lou is one tough cookie, far tougher than we or may even she thought she was. But as I said early on when she arrived, Lou WILL play more inside as time goes on. She will be required to cover 3's, 4's and occasionally 5's inside as well as 2's and 1's on the perimeter. It's this versatility that Geno will take advantage of. It's this versatility that will make her an early consideration for AA as well.

You make some very decent points here. However, she already can do all those things, and more importantly will definitely improve greatly by next season. Keep in mind that she was a freshman playing with three (3) All-Americans (one of which is arguably the greatest women's BB player of all-time) and the fourth starter is a member of the Canadian National team which trounced the USA. There's only one basketball to go around and trying to be a good "team member" you just attempt to fit in if and where you can. I'm quite confident that Lou's role will be vastly different next season and believe me she's up to the task.

 

[BroadwayVa]

She is listed in the roster as Guard/Forward as is Lou, in fact the roster is all guards with one center (Butler) and two forwards (Stewart and Tuck.)
But yeah - the official roster lies! Just another way Uconn stretches the rules in an underhanded and deceptive way!!!!

You just pointed out another reason for us (I won't mention the team name) to be suing the NCAA to remove all WIN's in the last 4 years from UConn. THEY LIE about the positions, the height, weight, and girth of players--because the TV camera's take 20 pounds off of players--we know Stewie had a 40 inch waist size --and Gabby is really 6 ft 6 and Moriah is really 3 ft 4--so she can run through the legs of our forwards and Centers--UCONN LIES.

 

[BroadwayVa]

Defensively KLS played all five positions on the floor at times this year, and offensively she played four and did a fair amount of posting up, but not as a real center.

Apparently you saw the same games I saw --and the Same Katie Lou I saw--wonder why some others missed the games (like about 30 of them) we saw???

 

[Gus Mahler]

As for Chong, I just don't see her getting any more playing time than she has in the past. She has some talent, but rarely seems to bring it with her. She makes tons of mistakes and turns the ball over way too much.

Her assist/turnover ratio this season was about 1.5, almost 2.5 in conference.

 

[Carnac]

Broadway, I didn't fill in the blanks (the reasons they left). My understanding of the dynamics behind the referenced players leaving jibs with yours. I've always suspected that Edwards' parents had a very large hand in her leaving UConn for greener pastures.

I also agree for the most part with your narrative with respect to UConn's player development philosophy in their first two years. I saw and remember the clip of Geno saying those words verbatim. I believe it was said during a segment of the Geno Auriemma show.

 

[JordyG]

Or Irwin for that matter. I have high hopes, High in the sky apple pie hopes

You must have missed some of the games I saw---Katie Lou attacked the basket from the either side, drove diagonally, straight on--made jumpers at the top of the key, about 8 feet away too, rebounded often and passed off to Mo Jefferson or Stewie--and defends well her game developed/progressed as the season ,pretty damn good for a slow starting Frosh.
I do agree she has the ability/potential to be among the best and no doubt she could improve--even Stewie, DT, Maya, Steff, Rene, Sue , Swin, Tamika, etc needed improvement as a Frosh. I'm pretty pleased with the Katie Lou we now have, and the Collier we have and expect to see much better, more confident players return next fall.
I also agree she is versatile and will be an AA--if she returns to and stays healthy.

The key word was variety I thought. Last year in attacking she often attempted a small variation of a one handed hook. Sometimes she just tried the straight on approach from any angle often drawing offensive fouls. Sometimes she tried a spin move which needs work. Players at this level catch on real quick. I never mentioned her outside shot or her passing which are clearly good. Nor did I mention her defense which improved dramatically from her initial game. If my criticisms seem too sharply pointed, well I could even mention that Stewie still needs to improve her upper and lower body strength, her dribble from the perimeter and her defensive footwork. No player is perfect, and it's that strive for perfection that divides the good from the great. Players often mention that the most improvement they've shown is between their freshman and sophomore year. I'm looking forward to this improvement from Lou and Pheese.

 

[Carnac]

Are you forgetting the other senior? TLaw

Ooops. I completely forgot about our former walk-on. I just remembered that Saniya was the only scholarship player to come in that year. I apologize for having "tunnel memory", thanks.

 

[uconnever]

I am soo confused by Chong's lack of playing time. Obviously I trust Geno, but to me, I see a player who could be super solid. She reminds me of Kiah Stokes in that I think her true self will shine through her senior year. I know coach doesn't like her defense and from what I remember, as soon as she got in the championship game, she got beat on defense and I was really disappointed because I believe in her and I'm like oh....that's why she doesn't play. Lack of focus. People may disagree with me and I've always felt that with hard work, she could play in the league. I think she will step up next year, because I think her demeanor is that of....She doesn't have a choice. And she will shine bright. Her offensive game looks elite to me. Just gotta focus on defense.

 

[Crossover]

Couple of things. First, now that the Holy Trinity is gone, and it's been 5 days since glorious #11, I'm ready to sit back and start taking stock of next season. Having said that, I have always LOVED Chong. I think all UCONN fans are rooting for her big time. I know that many of us have questioned why she doesn't get more PT, but then you watch her on the floor in the first half of the NC game, and sort of go "Oh... ok I sort of get it now".

BUT... “We’re a family,” Chong said. “It doesn’t matter about playing time or whatever. It’s because we all have each other’s back, we all support each other — no matter what — and just, the family, the bond that we’ve created, I love it.” How can you NOT love a kid with that attitude? I'm rooting for her so hard next year. I REALLY want to see her start - I'd LOVE to see a starting lineup with her out there - maybe Nurse, Chong, Williams, Samuelson, and Collier/Butler, but i'm not sure Collier can guard 6'5" post players like Morgan did. By her own admission, she "has no muscle".

I also agree with @iamcbs that Bent is HIGHLY under rated and she's going to surprise a lot of people. Maybe not UCONN fans, who have been hearing this for a while now, but when you consider she's a 3-star recruit per HG and not in their top 100, that's much lower than Engeln and I expect much greater things from Molly.

UNLESS Saniya can improve her PG skills (ie. initiate the offense - not just dribble the ball horizontally on the perimeter or make a pass 3 feet outside the arc), then there's no way she will be on the floor as the "main floor general". I have always seen her as more of a 2G or even a wing. Her speed and quickness as well as her ball handling skills and outside shot is better utilized as an off guard. I want to see her earn major minutes and average close to 10 PPG next season. I hope she gets there!!!

Yes, Saniya's greatest limitation is her inability to initiate the offense. Given that it will take a while, perhaps the entire year, for Crystal Dangerfield to master the point, it makes sense for Kia to slide over to the 1, a position she has played with considerable success for the Canadian national team. If that happens, Saniya's could see significant time as the off guard (especially against shorter lineups) which would reduce the pressure on her to initiate and free her up to drive to the hoop and dial from long distance.

 

[BroadwayVa]

I think this is probably the same kind of thing that Kiah got through her four years whenever she went home - 'So where are you going to transfer seeing as you aren't getting to start and your playing under 20 minutes a game?
We have some posters here that can't understand why players who don't get to start (especially as freshman) should be on the next bus out of town. Go figure.

Often times players can tell where they stand--and smart people can read the signs--Geno makes some snap judgements with long lasting results. I know many will argue this: But Geno is fallible and makes errors in judgement--and kids are brought to Uconn that really should not have been recruited. To those I have no fault with them transferring. I probably would be in big trouble but I could present a case for current, recent past, and some who transferred to transfer as Frosh. There will be a team out there who could offer 20 minutes per game--and mean it. No NC's, no Conference titles, no catered eating, no planes standing by, no top rated hotels/motels and no top of the line eateries to some playing is worth giving that up.
Kiah, if memory doesn't fail me, was held at Uconn by her father--he announced to all the media that Kiah was staying at Uconn until she graduated, never was sure if that was Kiah's choice.

 

[BroadwayVa]

The key word was variety I thought. Last year in attacking she often attempted a small variation of a one handed hook. Sometimes she just tried the straight on approach from any angle often drawing offensive fouls. Sometimes she tried a spin move which needs work. Players at this level catch on real quick. I never mentioned her outside shot or her passing which are clearly good. Nor did I mention her defense which improved dramatically from her initial game. If my criticisms seem too sharply pointed, well I could even mention that Stewie still needs to improve her upper and lower body strength, her dribble from the perimeter and her defensive footwork. No player is perfect, and it's that strive for perfection that divides the good from the great. Players often mention that the most improvement they've shown is between their freshman and sophomore year. I'm looking forward to this improvement from Lou and Pheese.

Got your message. She did use a "baby hook' once, I think, the spin move worked once failed one. She is a freshman (or was). Stewie is a non argument--she's a numbe r 1 draft pick.
Everyone needs improvement--in all things--in my case I need to perfect Retirement--I'm working on improvement every day. My wife is working on me accepting she is spending more than I take in--in that I'm improving too. I hired a bankruptcy attorney, my daughter.
Katie Lou may not show the vast Freshman to Soph improvement some speak of--her injury may stand in the way. Then too maybe that improvement is mostly mental.
JordyG---if I offended you in my defense of katie Lou--accept my profound apology. I'm not a fan of sniping, cutting and pasting, nitpicking if I did any of those things I offer you a triple apology--after all most are just offering opinions.

 

[BroadwayVa]

Broadway, I didn't fill in the blanks (the reasons they left). My understanding of the dynamics behind the referenced players leaving jibs with yours. I've always suspected that Edwards' parents had a very large hand in her leaving UConn for greener pastures.

I also agree for the most part with your narrative with respect to UConn's player development philosophy in their first two years. I saw and remember the clip of Geno saying those words verbatim. I believe it was said during a segment of the Geno Auriemma show.

Thanks for the verification. Geno in the past said those things a few times, probably all on CPTV.
If I appeared argumentative--forgive me. My opinion's are just that--I can't compete with all the professional data/fact checkers--nor do I have the desire to or the energy to dig that deeply--I just do this for fun--my professional days are long gone. Those that want to find fault with my posting have lots of area's to dig into==
including my spelling, grandma, and punkuwayshun--I do cypher well.

 

[JordyG]

Got your message. She did use a "baby hook' once, I think, the spin move worked once failed one. She is a freshman (or was). Stewie is a non argument--she's a numbe r 1 draft pick.
Everyone needs improvement--in all things--in my case I need to perfect Retirement--I'm working on improvement every day. My wife is working on me accepting she is spending more than I take in--in that I'm improving too. I hired a bankruptcy attorney, my daughter.
Katie Lou may not show the vast Freshman to Soph improvement some speak of--her injury may stand in the way. Then too maybe that improvement is mostly mental.
JordyG---if I offended you in my defense of katie Lou--accept my profound apology. I'm not a fan of sniping, cutting and pasting, nitpicking if I did any of those things I offer you a triple apology--after all most are just offering opinions.

Offended me? Now It's my turn to apologize. There was absolutely no offense taken. Hopefully there was none given. Now I know I've come across too sharply and perhaps obnoxiously. I just love a good discussion with someone whose opinion differs from mine. Your opinions, indeed of every person here on the BY has become precious to me. I think perhaps I should in the future watch my tone. As for the perfect retirement, well, you and I seem to have had less success than Stanley's search for Dr. Livingstone. I'm sure however we'll keep trying.

 

[UcMiami]

Often times players can tell where they stand--and smart people can read the signs--Geno makes some snap judgements with long lasting results. I know many will argue this: But Geno is fallible and makes errors in judgement--and kids are brought to Uconn that really should not have been recruited. To those I have no fault with them transferring. I probably would be in big trouble but I could present a case for current, recent past, and some who transferred to transfer as Frosh. There will be a team out there who could offer 20 minutes per game--and mean it. No NC's, no Conference titles, no catered eating, no planes standing by, no top rated hotels/motels and no top of the line eateries to some playing is worth giving that up.
Kiah, if memory doesn't fail me, was held at Uconn by her father--he announced to all the media that Kiah was staying at Uconn until she graduated, never was sure if that was Kiah's choice.

I never have a problem with players that transfer out from Uconn - if it isn't for you for whatever reason, why stay. What I have a problem with is people projecting their own ideas of what a college sports experience should be onto players they know next to nothing about. And unless you were a party to every conversation between a recruit and their family and the coaching staff the above highlight is presumptuous.

Tahirah Williams who presumably really didn't have enough talent to play significant minutes (7 min/game for her career, with a high as a sophomore of 7.7, and a career scoring average of one basket per game played) might be one of those people? But from all outward appearances she had the a great time during her four years and was a great teammate. Gardler is another example. Those and many others are the ones that stayed and thrived when to outward appearances they 'really should not have been recruited', the ones you probably refer to are similar players who chose to leave for whatever reasons of their own. And Lawlor and Pulido are I suspect envied by many players at other schools who may get more playing time, but without the team success.

Not everyone offered a scholarship is expected to star, and some who are offered don't develop as well as perhaps expected or hoped, and not every player who accepts has stars in their eyes either. Some may just look forward to being coached by the best coaching staff in the world and being associated with an organization that strives for perfection every day - and they don't have to pay thousands of dollars for the privilege, something that a lot of people less capable of athletic excellence do daily for the chance to train with _____, or be coached by ______. If you are good at something, and have the chance and desire to find out just how good you can be, why not seek out the best of the best to teach/train/develop you. That you then discover you ability is not so great, or your desire has limits, or you are not willing to make the commitment or the sacrifices required, or that there is something even more important to you that supersedes this part of your life, isn't that what we call growing up and maturing and self discovery. And if you discover your ability has limits but you still desire to test them, what a great adventure. And what life lessons you learn on your journey.

Looking at Heather or Briana in their respective moments of glory not only shows how wrong outside judgements can be, but it also lifts the spirits of all who watch and may inspire many.

 

[trb123]

Chong needs to learn defense. She should find that yellow brick road and get going. Very disappointed to learn that she has not started.

 

[Carnac]

Thanks for the verification. Geno in the past said those things a few times, probably all on CPTV.
If I appeared argumentative--forgive me. My opinion's are just that--I can't compete with all the professional data/fact checkers--nor do I have the desire to or the energy to dig that deeply--I just do this for fun--my professional days are long gone. Those that want to find fault with my posting have lots of area's to dig into==
including my spelling, grandma, and punkuwayshun--I do cypher well.

Hey Broadway, that's what makes this board so much fun, and interesting. How much fun would this board be if we all agreed on every topic? There are some very knowledgeable fans on this board that have been UConn fans a lot longer than me. I've also had to bow every once in a while when a poster responds to one of my comments with a different view point that I had not thought of, that makes sense. When anyone posts, they've got to know that somebody is going to disagree with them, that's part of the dynamic of posting here.

I know there are some posters here that are connected to the program because they post or comment on items that only someone close to the program would know. I'm glad they're here. I like getting inside information BEFORE it hits the air waves, or the internet. i.e., A poster commented that Tuck made the ALL American list. He/she gave no further details. She did make it. So that poster's credibility remains in tact.

That information was not confirmed until approx. 10 days later if I recall. I did not see or read that anywhere else (that she definitely made it). I like to read others opinions, whether they make sense or not. Since we're not robots, there's no way we will ever agree all the time, or always observe a situation the same, like whether Chong should start or not. That's going to be a hot one. I expect some very spirited debates over who the starting 5 will be that first exhibition game in November. There's no hurry on that one, we've got all summer to hash that out.

 

[Carnac]

I am soo confused by Chong's lack of playing time. Obviously I trust Geno, but to me, I see a player who could be super solid. She reminds me of Kiah Stokes in that I think her true self will shine through her senior year. I know coach doesn't like her defense and from what I remember, as soon as she got in the championship game, she got beat on defense and I was really disappointed because I believe in her and I'm like oh....that's why she doesn't play. Lack of focus. People may disagree with me and I've always felt that with hard work, she could play in the league. I think she will step up next year, because I think her demeanor is that of....She doesn't have a choice. And she will shine bright. Her offensive game looks elite to me. Just gotta focus on defense.

I think the yard is split down the middle on this topic. There are many that agree with you, and just as many that don't. Believe me, this topic will be discussed and debated ALL summer.
I'm rooting for Saniya (Lord knows she's paid her dues), but if she's going to start, she's going to have to beat out all of the other guards once official practice begins., and earn that spot. Geno is not sentimental, he's going to start the best 5 players that give the team the best chance to win. If Saniya is in that number, good for her. If not, she'll continue to come off the bench.

That's the way I see it, I think that's the way it should be. Your reference to her defensive deficiencies are on point. I remind you of the definition of insanity. I think that applies here. She's going to have to do something different to improve and enhance her ability to keep her man in front of her. That's one thing Geno will not tolerate from any player. Saniya is much better than when she first got here, but there's still room for improvement.

This is her last "round-up". She knows what her deficiencies are. She has the entire summer to address them. She should come back in the fall ready to compete for a starting spot. Hopefully she will return healthy, and free from the IT Band Syndrome that plagued her this year. Kia Nurse will of course be the other starting guard. Whether she moves over to the point, or someone else assumes that role remains to be seen.
We'll discuss and debate THAT issue also. We've got lots of "fodder" to keep us entertained until October, that's six looooong months from now.

 

[Carnac]

Chong needs to learn defense. She should find that yellow brick road and get going. Very disappointed to learn that she has not started.

OK......If Chong were to start, which one of the other starters would you have take a seat on the bench? Which one of the 5 starters do you think Chong should be starting over? You know Geno is going to start the best 5 players that give him the best chance to win, right?

 

[HardHatGuy#2]

I believe that Saniya will have a Kiah Stokes-esque rebirth in her senior year. Suddenly there are no Superstars to fall back on, YOU are the Senior everyone is looking to for leadership, and there is a gaping hole at YOUR position. The time has come to earn your scholarship, and validate the rings on your fingers. I don't think she will let her teammates down.

Just like Kiah, she has all of the talent and ability, and has enticed us at times with brilliant plays, while frustrating us madly with sophomoric blunders and what appeared to be lackluster play. When opportunity knocked, Kiah grabbed it by the throat and throttled it, dominating opponents throughout her Senior season. I see Saniya doing the same.

 

[Charliebball]

I believe that Saniya will have a Kiah Stokes-esque rebirth in her senior year. Suddenly there are no Superstars to fall back on, YOU are the Senior everyone is looking to for leadership, and there is a gaping hole at YOUR position. The time has come to earn your scholarship, and validate the rings on your fingers. I don't think she will let her teammates down.

Just like Kiah, she has all of the talent and ability, and has enticed us at times with brilliant plays, while frustrating us madly with sophomoric blunders and what appeared to be lackluster play. When opportunity knocked, Kiah grabbed it by the throat and throttled it, dominating opponents throughout her Senior season. I see Saniya doing the same.

I do see similarities to the Stokes situation..... Chong could be an impactful part of the team even if she doesn't start. If she is fit and that's a big if, she could be the first guard off the bench and could be inserted any time her shooting touch was needed. After all, she will be one of the two or three best outside shooters on the team next season.

 

[trb123]

OK.If Chong were to start, which one of the other starters would you have take a seat on the bench? Which one of the 5 starters do you think Chong should be starting over? You know Geno is going to start the best 5 players that give him the best chance to win, right?

Carnac

I had read only the title of this thread and not much else when I posted. I believed she should get going. I can almost hear her say, " I am Saniya, five foot nine and fast......"

I know that Geno is going to start the best 5 players. I am not going to talk about Chong making the starting 5. Very wary of talking about something that is not my expertise.

Needless to say I am very happy to learn about these vast improvements waiting to happen in summer and early fall.

 

[Gus Mahler]

Y'know, Saniya, despite fighting health issues, averaged about 12.5 minutes per game. Last year, when healthier, she averaged 19, I believe. There's been a few starts scattered in there, too.

When you're part of teams that are being considered as the two most powerful college basketball teams ever, that ain't so bad.
When you look at the players on these teams that get more minutes - All Americans, Olympian/National team players, current-and-soon-to-be WNBA players - that ain't so bad.
When you look at the wonderful experiences and wonderful people you get to spend your time with - that ain't so bad.

I could go on, but, you get the idea. We tend to fixate on starters, and can be very quick to point out deficiencies in players who don't play ahead of the aforementioned roster of AA's, etc. Just because a kid doesn't start at UConn, doesn't mean they're chopped liver - and a kid who averages double-digit minutes, I would contend, is definitely not chopped liver.

A very not-chopped-liver post, Mr. Bear.

 

[Geno-ista]

A lot of interesting stuff on this thread- here's my take. I love Collier- love he!!! But I see Gabby as a better ball handler/guard right now vs Napheesa. With Morgan going too- ( which I took a lot of "constructive criticism" for my prediction last summer", the Boykin Transfer will loom large- large! I'm not confident about Butler and Chong being players that will be able to get us thru regionals to a FF. I hope I'm wrong. I think next yr's team goal is to get Danger in a position to make a big run to the Promised land her Sophomore yr. Butler is going to have to be able to drain a high percentage 13-17 mid range shots all the time for us to have a prayer next yr. her footwork on both ends and defense ends in fouls most of the tim. I really thought she would have been farther after 2 yr's of practice w our teams. And Saniya is almost invisible on defense. I'm not expecting more than a regional game next year. I'm still looking forward to the season and seeing everyone's ind growth.

 

[Geno-ista]

Don't count out Molly Bent, she's going to surprise a lot of people.

I hope you're right- we'll need all the help we can get. We need the help next season! Not sure she can help us that much by March?

 

[Carnac]

Yes, Saniya's greatest limitation is her inability to initiate the offense. Given that it will take a while, perhaps the entire year, for Crystal Dangerfield to master the point, it makes sense for Kia to slide over to the 1, a position she has played with considerable success for the Canadian national team. If that happens, Saniya's could see significant time as the off guard (especially against shorter lineups) which would reduce the pressure on her to initiate and free her up to drive to the hoop and dial from long distance.

Pardon my ignorance, but you have me at a disadvantage. I assume that Chris Daley is "CD". I'm also assuming that Crystal Dangerfield is Crystal Dangerfield. My question is who is CD2?

 

[Geno-ista]

Right. Picture a team, with small guards, putting a full court press on Uconn. You don't want to see Collier+Williams handling the ball in the back court. As another poster said, Chong needs to concentrate more, and do it 100% of the time that she is on the court.

She can't defend at all- biggest detriment.