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CBS Sports Top 30 Wings

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No arguing that Barnes is a good player, but the kid seems way overrated to me...he didn't come on until late last year and it wasn't like he didnt have a supporting cast to take the pressure off early on. Even when he did start living up to some of the hype I didn't think he was ungodly good...ya he's a definite lottery pick, but I just don't see him on another level like everyone seems to be talking about

And Rivers in head of Lamb?!?! the kid hasn't played a single college bball game, while Lamb has already shown that he can be the go to guy on a national championship team...I don't think there should be any debate here...
 
Barnes is good but no where close to the Nba superstar people thought he was. He is not an explosive athlete and has a very loose handle. Give me Lamb.
 
Lamb should be behind Barnes. Barnes has proven himself and is unquestionably great player and a go-to guy. Lamb needs to prove that he can be a go-to guy. Still he should be ahead of Rivers. That's laughable that he is behind him.
 
I am a huge fan of dock rivers, but his son is a bit of a cocky ******* and over-rated.
 
I agree that Barnes should be ranked above Lamb preseason since Lamb is more unproven, Barnes is just overrated
 
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Yea I don't see Barnes being all that much better, if at all, than Luol Deng in the NBA. Very good player in the league but not the franchise level wing he was being hyped up to be coming out of HS. Carmelo isn't even a franchise player and Barnes isn't anywhere near that level.
 
Jeremy Lamb is going to surprise some people this year.... People know he's good, but I don't think the national media knows just HOW good he is. He's going to be one of the top scorers in all of college basketball this year.
 
There's your Buffalo wings. Your terriaki wings....hey I'm a bit punchy right now waiting in the doggy emergency room as our mini Schnauzer gets stitched up.
 
61cygni said:
Prediction: Rivers will be the most-hated Dukie since Laettner.
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What are we basing him not living up to his hype on? Everything we have heard is that the kid is a player and a top 5 lottery pick. (If it is because he is gay- I think you would be a bit out of line- gay people should not be discounted because of their sexual orientation. Dook as a team seems to get bumped up 2-3 spots every year and they are full of gay white boys).
 
Where did I say anything about living up to hype or how good he would be? He will be hated regardless of where he ends up on the basketball skills spectrum, from Paulus to Laettner.
 
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Scot-e said:
What are we basing him not living up to his hype on? Everything we have heard is that the kid is a player and a top 5 lottery pick. (If it is because he is gay- I think you would be a bit out of line- gay people should not be discounted because of their sexual orientation. Dook as a team seems to get bumped up 2-3 spots every year and they are full of gay white boys).
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I'm confused, who are you saying is gay - Laettner or Rivers?

On a serious note, I don't understand what position Rivers plays in high school/college/NBA. He is 6'4" right? Maybe big enough for an NBA shooting guard, but certainly not a wing. And isn't it still unknown if he's a PG or SG in college? I had assumed Rivers would play PG at Dook since Curry is a SG, but maybe like his brother people think Seth has to play PG to make it in the NBA even though his brother has somewhat disproven that hypothesis (even though he's playing PG with Monte Ellis many think he should be SG and there's been a ton of rumors about Ellis being traded). However I can see support for continuing the hypothesis since Stephen Curry just has a knack/gift for scoring the ball that his brother though a good shooter doesn't possess. Nonetheless, I didn't see anything from Seth Curry that would lead me to believe he is a PG whereas I thought that's what Rivers did in high school??
 
this board is seriously weird as hell when it comes to understanding what a wing is. A wing is a SG/SF, Rivers is a SG at the next level, and will play SG in college and SF as well when they go to 3 guard sets. Its why Jeremy is also included in the wing group because he plays SG/SF. On CBS Sports there isn't a top 30 list for SGs, then a top 30 for SFs, just wings(SG & SF combined)
 
aceboon said:
this board is seriously weird as hell when it comes to understanding what a wing is. A wing is a SG/SF, Rivers is a SG at the next level, and will play SG in college and SF as well when they go to 3 guard sets. Its why Jeremy is also included in the wing group because he plays SG/SF. On CBS Sports there isn't a top 30 list for SGs, then a top 30 for SFs, just wings(SG & SF combined)
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I don't know if we're weird because of our confusion about the definition of the wing player.

But I won't argue with you we are weird as hell.
 
aceboon said:
On CBS Sports there isn't a top 30 list for SGs, then a top 30 for SFs, just wings(SG & SF combined)
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If that's true, then where is Roscoe Smith and Deandre Daniels? It's almost as if there are too many good players on UConn, so they're taking away each other's votes.
 
I love Roscoe but based on last season he does not deserve to be listed as top 30 wing in the country. As for DeAndre he's not even slated to start right now and even though people do know how talented he is he's kind of a mystery because of his recruitment and the fact that he was tucked away at IMG last year.
 
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aceboon said:
this board is seriously weird as hell when it comes to understanding what a wing is. A wing is a SG/SF, Rivers is a SG at the next level, and will play SG in college and SF as well when they go to 3 guard sets. Its why Jeremy is also included in the wing group because he plays SG/SF. On CBS Sports there isn't a top 30 list for SGs, then a top 30 for SFs, just wings(SG & SF combined)
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The reason it's confusing is because in my experience people have addressed the position of small forward as wing when discussing a lineup. For example, SN is starting at point, JL is starting at two guard, RS will start at wing to begin the year, and AO and AD will start up front. Now that I think about it, I believe that people involved with the NBA are more distinctive in calling the 3 the wing. I know it officially includes the 2 and 3. However, I can't think of a time when someone referred to the 2 as wing, then said the 3 as small forward. However, I have heard the reverse countless times like my example above. Again, it happens much more in NBA circles than NCAA. I follow both leagues closely, but have watched a lot more NBA games.
 
aceboon said:
this board is seriously weird as hell when it comes to understanding what a wing is. A wing is a SG/SF, Rivers is a SG at the next level, and will play SG in college and SF as well when they go to 3 guard sets. Its why Jeremy is also included in the wing group because he plays SG/SF. On CBS Sports there isn't a top 30 list for SGs, then a top 30 for SFs, just wings(SG & SF combined)
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The definition of a wing is not consistently defined. Sometimes the 2Gs and SFs are combined but often they are split out.

Depending on the system, their roles can be eerily similar or quite dissimilar. In JC's system, there's not that much of a difference other than the bigger of the two defends the opposing team's SF, has more rebounding responsibilities on offense and plays below the foul line more often than the 2G.

I like it when they split them out though giving you two pools of players to rank. But it does pose a problem where to list 2/3 combos such as Lamb.
 
aceboon said:
I love Roscoe but based on last season he does not deserve to be listed as top 30 wing in the country.
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In that case, you are punishing Roscoe for having accepted a role on his team that does not feature scoring as part of the role. Roscoe came to UConn very raw on offense, but with some tremendous growth potential in that area. I suspect we're gonna see much more of that potential this year. Despite that Roscoe has been called a defensive specialist somewhat jokingly by his teammates, he makes enough plays that win ballgames to deserve a top 30 wing ranking.
 
BigErnMcCracken said:
When did this happen? How did I miss it?
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I didn't see much of his play during the NCAAs but during the 2nd half of his ACC season, he came up huge for the heals. Early on I said the idiotic thing that he was way overrated. He really put it together in the second half. He's no second coming of Kevin Durant. He's more smooth than athletic, but is an elite jump-shooter that has the length to get it off easily. He's going to have an excellent season, but I think he's just going to be a very good pro, not a great one. He reminds me of a poor-man's Tracy McGrady. Maybe he'll be as good, but he seems to lack the power that you see with the elite wings like Kobe. Hum...maybe if he develops a better handle he can develop into a Paul Pierce type player. I just haven't seen that yet, but then again, I thought he was overrated early last season, so he'll probably prove me wrong yet again.
 
gibhunter said:
Lamb should be behind Barnes. Barnes has proven himself and is unquestionably great player and a go-to guy. Lamb needs to prove that he can be a go-to guy. Still he should be ahead of Rivers. That's laughable that he is behind him.
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I think both proved they were go-to-guys last season. Lamb hit a bunch of huge late game shots and probably would have had more if he didn't happen to play beside on of the best winning time scorers of all time.

IMO, Lamb has a more versatile game, while Barnes was a better shooter. Would I be shocked if Lamb has a better season than Barnes and outplays him? No! Is Barnes more hyped because of his rep coming out of HS and because he plays for the Heals? Yes!

I don't have a problem with Barnes ranked higher. Like it or not, many voters weigh NBA potential high and many see Barnes' skill set as a good match for the NBA. It's not where there they start of that's important, but where they're ranked when it's all said and done. I'll be very happy to see Barnes with his POY trophy while Lamb and his teammates are holding up the National Championship, and maybe Lamb holding up the F4 Most Outstanding Player trophy as well.
 
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Barnes has a beautiful stroke, dare I say almost Ray Allen-esque. His size is prototype NBA small forward. He also handles the ball very well for his size. These are all offensive skills. He's not much of a defender and is only an OK rebounder, but the media doesn't care about those things.
 
DogMania said:
The definition of a wing is not consistently defined. Sometimes the 2Gs and SFs are combined but often they are split out.

Depending on the system, their roles can be eerily similar or quite dissimilar. In JC's system, there's not that much of a difference other than the bigger of the two defends the opposing team's SF, has more rebounding responsibilities on offense and plays below the foul line more often than the 2G.

I like it when they split them out though giving you two pools of players to rank. But it does pose a problem where to list 2/3 combos such as Lamb.
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I think I agree with Sportsman5 that wing more often means a SF though it can also be a SF that also plays the 2. And that when you get to the NBA the definition drifts more heavily to SF. Example Ray Allen was a wing player at UConn but became strictly a SG in the NBA vs Paul Pierce who plays the 2 and 3 in the NBA and is therefore a NBA wing.

However my point or question was that I thought Austin Rivers is a SG/PG = not wing vs Lamb SG/SF = wing. No one has commented, am I wrong about Rivers?

Maybe I just assumed Austin Rivers was a PG because Doc was a PG. And for that matter maybe I assume the Curry's are SG's because Dell was an NBA SG (although I think Dell played wing at VTech ;)
 
Rivers will spend some time at all 3 perimeter spots for Duke, PG, SG, and SF. He's a SG with plus skills. I think he's a little overrated myself, he can shoot you both into and out of a game. We'll see.
 
Mr. Wonderful said:
Barnes has a beautiful stroke, dare I say almost Ray Allen-esque. His size is prototype NBA small forward. He also handles the ball very well for his size. These are all offensive skills. He's not much of a defender and is only an OK rebounder, but the media doesn't care about those things.
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Barnes does not have a good handle and showed no ability to create for himself. There is a reason his production improved dramatically when Marshall was inserted in the lineup because he now was able to be a spot up shooter.

He has perfect size for the 3 and seemed to get a lot stronger in the off season. He looked very big in the Heels Midnight Madness that I caught a bit of. He is a very normal athlete for NBA standards, though.

Some draft people like ESPN's Chad Ford have Barnes rated as a better prospect than Drummond. Picking Barnes over Drummond will get a GM fired.
 
walker11 said:
Barnes does not have a good handle and showed no ability to create for himself.
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This is one thing you will see this year. He's not going to remind anyone of Kemba, but he'll have the green light to take it to the hole this year, especially in transition. UNC is going to try to run a lot this year. Expect a lot of secondary break action with their bigs, it's classic Roy Williams.
 
I don't want to on the kid too much because he is supposed to be a real 1st class kid in all ways but he showed a weak handle last year and unless his 3 day stint at the CP3 camp transformed his ball handling, he will still be mediocre in that regard. He will score in transition but UNC always runs. He scored in transition last year.
 
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I agree with walker11, Barnes really isn't a guy you want to isolate and have him try to break someone down off the dribble but he can pull up for jumpers and is a great spot up guy. Barnes's weaknesses in that regard is why I compare him to Deng, they're the same kind of player to me.
 
aceboon said:
I agree with walker11, Barnes really isn't a guy you want to isolate and have him try to break someone down off the dribble but he can pull up for jumpers and is a great spot up guy. Barnes's weaknesses in that regard is why I compare him to Deng, they're the same kind of player to me.
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I think this assessment is spot on and Deng is a great comparison. Barnes is certainly a very good player and will be one of the best in the country this year, but those projecting him to be a star in the NBA are way off. He doesn't have the elite athleticism and handle, in my opinion.

Maybe it's just because they haven't been "exposed" by a year of college ball yet, but I think Drummond and Davis are easily the two best NBA prospects in college this year. And considering that Davis is a little bit of a "tweener", I think Drummond is the #1 pick if he doesn't fall flat on his face. This situation actually reminds me a lot of Oden vs. Durant a few years back. Not that their respective careers will end up the same way, but the elite big man prospect (Oden/Drummond) vs. the tall, lanky guy with good perimeter skills (Durant/Davis).
 
If Barnes were at UConn would people feel and post the same way? Just curious.
 
Kitaman said:
If Barnes were at UConn would people feel and post the same way? Just curious.
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Don't get me wrong, Barnes is a fantastic player and will likely be a top 3-5 NBA draft pick. He's a very smooth player with good size, a GREAT shot, and by all accounts works his ass off. He's someone who's easy to root for and it's always hard to count out players with a great work ethic.

That being said, I've heard people compare him to a young Kobe and that's just insane. Barnes is a good athlete, but lacks ELITE athleticism that the top NBA SF's possess. On top of that, his ball handling skills are merely adequate. He can't create his own shot at this point. That can certainly change (look at someone like Rudy Gay), but it is a limitation at this point. I think what makes Barnes such a good prospect is that he's already pretty polished and should be NBA ready from the get-go. And if he has a good PG to feed him the ball in good positions, I think he can be an all-star player a couple years. But, from what I've personally seen of him, I don't think he has that "dominate the league" type potential of a Drummond or Davis. I think the Luol Deng/Danny Granger mold fits him, which is still very good in its own right.
 
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Kitaman said:
If Barnes were at UConn would people feel and post the same way? Just curious.
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Feel what way, that he has weaknesses? I like Barnes but he does have his weaknesses and its not bashing him to point them out, its no different than what I do with Roscoe now and Stanley before him as far as what they lacked in their overall offensive games. I guess its just a little more vocal in regards to Barnes because he was billed as being this complete player and was drawing Kobe comparisons because of his overall polish(although I think this had alot to do with his media savvy and demeanor as well), but his first year exposed his glaring weaknesses.
 
Mr. Wonderful said:
Barnes has a beautiful stroke, dare I say almost Ray Allen-esque.
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You dare not. You don't compare a one year college player to a first ballot HOFer that holds the NBA record for three pointers.
 
walker11 said:
I don't want to on the kid too much because he is supposed to be a real 1st class kid in all ways but he showed a weak handle last year and unless his 3 day stint at the CP3 camp transformed his ball handling, he will still be mediocre in that regard. He will score in transition but UNC always runs. He scored in transition last year.
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I agree. Comparing to former UNC guys, I see him as a bigger, stronger Joe Forte. He doesn't have the dominant athleticism of a Carter or Stackhouse, but he's a better shooter.

The guy we really ought to be concerned about is Marshall, who strikes me as a better version of Ed Cota. Who was the real key back in the day. Man, do I hate me some Ed Cota.
 
walker11 said:
Barnes reminds me a Stephen Jackson with his head on straight
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The next Quentin Richardson or nick Anderson or Dennis Scott or Antoine Walker?
Potential top three pick?...not if I were the GM
 
selles said:
I agree. Comparing to former UNC guys, I see him as a bigger, stronger Joe Forte. He doesn't have the dominant athleticism of a Carter or Stackhouse, but he's a better shooter.

The guy we really ought to be concerned about is Marshall, who strikes me as a better version of Ed Cota. Who was the real key back in the day. Man, do I hate me some Ed Cota.
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Really? I see Marshall as a slow version of Deron Williams* or maybe going into the wayback machine a poor man's Mark Jackson. Marshall gets it done, but it ain't pretty and it'll be interesting if UNC is really committed to running with the slowest player on the team playing point. Not saying I don't like his game, but I also like Heinz ketchup. Nowadays if you can choose gotta go organic or Chris Paul.

* After mediocre first game Deron Williams had 24pts 10 assists in 2nd Turkey game.
 
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Dogdeacon said:
Really? I see Marshall as a slow version of Deron Williams* or maybe going into the wayback machine a poor man's Mark Jackson. Marshall gets it done, but it ain't pretty and it'll be interesting if UNC is really committed to running with the slowest player on the team playing point. Not saying I don't like his game, but I also like Heinz ketchup. Nowadays if you can choose gotta go organic or Chris Paul.

* After mediocre first game Deron Williams had 24pts 10 assists in 2nd Turkey game.
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Frankly, don't they have to? Roy Williams never has much of a half-court offense. He's masterful at primary and secondary breaks, and all his teams that have won at Kansas and UNC have done so with running. They tend to lose with the other team can slow them down (see Syracuse and the zone, 2003) or just out athlete them (see Kansas and their athletic lineup, 2008).
 
walker11 said:
Barnes does not have a good handle and showed no ability to create for himself. There is a reason his production improved dramatically when Marshall was inserted in the lineup because he now was able to be a spot up shooter.

He has perfect size for the 3 and seemed to get a lot stronger in the off season. He looked very big in the Heels Midnight Madness that I caught a bit of. He is a very normal athlete for NBA standards, though.

Some draft people like ESPN's Chad Ford have Barnes rated as a better prospect than Drummond. Picking Barnes over Drummond will get a GM fired.
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I tend to agree with you. It's not that Barnes has a poor handle, but nothing exceptional and has yet to show a vast array of scoring off the dribble. That's not to say he hasn't improved and will improve his ability to score from all over the floor. But based on what I saw last season there's a lot of room for growth. One thing is for sure, the kid can really light it if via the J when he has it going.
 
Dogdeacon said:
I think I agree with Sportsman5 that wing more often means a SF though it can also be a SF that also plays the 2. And that when you get to the NBA the definition drifts more heavily to SF. Example Ray Allen was a wing player at UConn but became strictly a SG in the NBA vs Paul Pierce who plays the 2 and 3 in the NBA and is therefore a NBA wing.

However my point or question was that I thought Austin Rivers is a SG/PG = not wing vs Lamb SG/SF = wing. No one has commented, am I wrong about Rivers?

Maybe I just assumed Austin Rivers was a PG because Doc was a PG. And for that matter maybe I assume the Curry's are SG's because Dell was an NBA SG (although I think Dell played wing at VTech ;)
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It's hard to say where Austin fits at the college level and eventually at the next. He's got the size and skill that will allow him to play the 1 through 3 in college. I think he'll see time at all 3, but I have a feeling dook's greatest need for him to fill will be at the 2G. At the next level, he'll end up a 1 or 2, though I'm guessing if he shows he can run a team and pass like a PG, he's going to end up an NBA PG since that's a hard position to fill with size and skill.

For example Derrick Rose has the size and game to play the 1 or 2, probably even the 3 with his strength, but he's at his best with the ball in his hands.

Rivers has a lot of filling out to do, and could find a lot of time at the wing as a catch-and-shooter/slasher type player at both levels. He's just a tough one to slot until you see how Rat Face decides to use him.
 
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