Can WBB teams catch up to UConn or S Carolina in a changing era? | Page 3 | The Boneyard

Can WBB teams catch up to UConn or S Carolina in a changing era?

You have hit the nail on the head. The problem is getting the right mix of recruiting and ‘portal power.’ The lesson from Dawn and Geno seems to be that 50-50 or 60-40 is the wrong ratio. Maybe something closer to 90-10. The problem for the wannabes is that they’re in a hurry and building through recruitment takes too long for them. Of that group, I have a feeling Campbell is closer to solving the puzzle than Kim is.

I’m also struck by the case of UCLA. Cori relied perhaps too much on the portal and lost her entire freshman class as a result. And even worse, the team she’d put together, which was widely regarded as a juggernaut all season, folded like a house of cards in the tournament.

USC is a similar case, though perhaps not quite so dire. Coach Gottlieb had a great recruiting class and then took in portal players over it and it cost her some of her best freshmen. And to draw a bright line under it, that team made it to the elite eight and gave UConn its toughest test. Some might look wistfully to the loss of Juju and think they might have won that game but for that. However I think they were a better team without her, at least as constituted at that moment. A lot of folks dismiss Lindsay as a coach, but I actually thinks she’s quite good. She seems to have had the misfortune of recruiting a superstar and it distorted her team for two years in a row. Maybe it will be different when she returns.
I was impressed with the team Lindsey put together from lower end transfers the year before she signed Juju. No top notch players but they played winning basketball in the PAC and were quite competitive with a handful of upsets. Made the tournament after a decade absence under her predecessor.
 

“Coaches are questioning, obviously: Is it even worth it to be in this business? What are we doing? What are we doing if we can’t build a program and you’re starting from scratch every year to build a team without any rules around it?” one power conference coach said. “What are we doing? And why are we doing it?”
“I have to change. I have to pivot and plan for 50 percent attrition,” another power conference coach added. “Time will tell if you can build a program (in this era). If I can’t build a program, I’m not going to be doing it very long.”
“If I can keep the kid for two years,” one said, “I feel like I’ve won the lottery.”
This attrition has had a ripple effect on how college coaches prioritize high school recruiting. Many staff chose not to send multiple (or any) coaches on the road this offseason for the first high school recruiting evaluation period, valuing hosting immediate impact players over seeing talent who wouldn’t be on campus for a few years.
That signals a significant shift in the overall recruiting philosophy. Five years ago, the lifeblood of almost every program was high school recruiting. Now, the portal offers another option. Multiple coaches said that their focus on high school recruits has decreased from 95-100 percent of their recruiting efforts to somewhere between 50-70 percent. Nearly 80 power conference freshmen transferred this offseason, so coaches also realize that bringing in a freshman doesn’t necessarily mean stability.
I think the better question would be “Will UConn be able to keep up?” UConn just doesn’t have the money that the P2 teams have. At some point in the very near future the disparity in revenue will be to great for UConn to overcome. Hopefully Geno and CD can hold on just a few years longer to see if UConn can get out of the purgatory that is the Big East.
 
Don't know the difference. But I do know that laboratory people have replaced rats with lawyers, because there are more lawyers than rats, and lab workers get less attached to the lawyers.
LOL. I'm risking a 30-day time out from Nan, but the difference is one is a scum sucking bottom dweller and the other is a fish.
 
If the amount exceeds the contract price, it smells of penalty because liquidated damages must be a reasonable approximation of foreseeable damages to the non -breaching party but they cannot simply be a penalty.

You resort to old common law - which Is more relevant than most would suspect. That shows how tough the field of study can be. University lawyers are good and won’t allow their client to use an easily beaten adhesion agreement signed by an 18 year old. It will be tough but I’m sure they can come up with something that will work. But it won’t be a simple penalty clause. That is why I raise the issue to point out that a simple boilerplate penalty clause is not good enough.

Hadley v Baxendal gives me headaches too.
Well reasoned. I agree. We all have memories of Hadley v. Baxendale, and usually not good ones. :) After 29 years practicing law, I am still surprised how some seemingly established organizations rely on bad contracts to do business.
 
You have hit the nail on the head. The problem is getting the right mix of recruiting and ‘portal power.’ The lesson from Dawn and Geno seems to be that 50-50 or 60-40 is the wrong ratio. Maybe something closer to 90-10. The problem for the wannabes is that they’re in a hurry and building through recruitment takes too long for them. Of that group, I have a feeling Campbell is closer to solving the puzzle than Kim is.

I’m also struck by the case of UCLA. Cori relied perhaps too much on the portal and lost her entire freshman class as a result. And even worse, the team she’d put together, which was widely regarded as a juggernaut all season, folded like a house of cards in the tournament.

USC is a similar case, though perhaps not quite so dire. Coach Gottlieb had a great recruiting class and then took in portal players over it and it cost her some of her best freshmen. And to draw a bright line under it, that team made it to the elite eight and gave UConn its toughest test. Some might look wistfully to the loss of Juju and think they might have won that game but for that. However I think they were a better team without her, at least as constituted at that moment. A lot of folks dismiss Lindsay as a coach, but I actually thinks she’s quite good. She seems to have had the misfortune of recruiting a superstar and it distorted her team for two years in a row. Maybe it will be different when she returns.
Recruiting the superstar did not distort her team. What distorted the team was her failure to make the superstar play as part of the team. The result was not a team at all but rather JuJu and four acolytes. The question is; was she pressured into playing that way (85-95%) or did she actually believe it was the best way to play? (5-15%) Either way, her standing as a coach diminished greatly in my eyes.
 
LOL. I'm risking a 30-day time out from Nan, but the difference is one is a scum sucking bottom dweller and the other is a fish.
Scum sucking bottom dweller, until you need one, right? My son is an attorney for the state of New York and I am very proud of him. His job is to investigate bad lawyers, and guess what? He has found that they are not all bad. Just sayin.
 
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I think the better question would be “Will UConn be able to keep up?” UConn just doesn’t have the money that the P2 teams have. At some point in the very near future the disparity in revenue will be to great for UConn to overcome. Hopefully Geno and CD can hold on just a few years longer to see if UConn can get out of the purgatory that is the Big East.
The state and the university have taken the position that UConn will have a competitive budget. I don't see that changing anytime soon.
 
The state and the university have taken the position that UConn will have a competitive budget. I don't see that changing anytime soon.
It’s easy to be intimidated by the P4 schools. But a lot of that is about college football. When it comes to WBB, UConn is one of the very few D1 programs in the nation that operates in the black. For the record, SC WBB loses money. Obviously, SC’s take of SEC football revenue gives the AD more financial resources to move around if he so chooses. But big time college football is a hungry beast that continues to require more care and feeding every year.
 
It’s easy to be intimidated by the P4 schools. But a lot of that is about college football. When it comes to WBB, UConn is one of the very few D1 programs in the nation that operates in the black. For the record, SC WBB loses money. Obviously, SC’s take of SEC football revenue gives the AD more financial resources to move around if he so chooses. But big time college football is a hungry beast that continues to require more care and feeding every year.
Actually, though I haven't checked for last year, I believe that over the past half dozen years or so, we've been in the red for women's basketball. That's OK so long as the state and the university agreed that it's a cost they're willing to bear.
 
Actually, though I haven't checked for last year, I believe that over the past half dozen years or so, we've been in the red for women's basketball. That's OK so long as the state and the university agreed that it's a cost they're willing to bear.
I’m always dubious of university accounting, having seen it from the inside for decades. Concepts like profit or loss don’t operate there as they do elsewhere. A mix of endowment revenue, annual fundraising, state subsidies and tuition revenue is part of every calculation of whether a school or a program is in the red or the black. It is not simply a question of expenditure given the unpredictability of three of these elements.
 
I’m always dubious of university accounting, having seen it from the inside for decades. Concepts like profit or loss don’t operate there as they do elsewhere. A mix of endowment revenue, annual fundraising, state subsidies and tuition revenue is part of every calculation of whether a school or a program is in the red or the black. It is not simply a question of expenditure given the unpredictability of three of these elements.
100% agree. Inter department transfers create "paper losses" wherever they want them to be. I'm particularly skeptical of "tuition" charges which are often booked at an undiscounted rate that relatively few US citizens actually pay.
 
I’m always dubious of university accounting, having seen it from the inside for decades. Concepts like profit or loss don’t operate there as they do elsewhere. A mix of endowment revenue, annual fundraising, state subsidies and tuition revenue is part of every calculation of whether a school or a program is in the red or the black. It is not simply a question of expenditure given the unpredictability of three of these elements.
100% agree. Inter department transfers create "paper losses" wherever they want them to be. I'm particularly skeptical of "tuition" charges which are often booked at an undiscounted rate that relatively few US citizens actually pay.
While I acknowledge that there’s some creative accounting involved when it comes to college athletics, the one thing that is clear is that UConn is the first WBB program to exceed $3 million in ticket sales, hitting $3.25 million in 2024. Those numbers buy you a lot of credibility.
 
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While I acknowledge that there’s some creative accounting involved when it comes to college athletics, the one thing that is clear is that UConn is the first WBB program to exceed $3 million in ticket sales, hitting $3.25 million in 2024. Those numbers buy you a lot of credibility.
Well, those numbers will buy you a championship level coach anyways.
 
Well, those numbers will buy you a championship level coach anyways.
Geno’s base salary is only around $600,000 per year. With media, consulting and speaking engagements his total annual compensation is somewhere north of $3 million.
 
While I acknowledge that there’s some creative accounting involved when it comes to college athletics, the one thing that is clear is that UConn is the first WBB program to exceed $3 million in ticket sales, hitting $3.25 million in 2024. Those numbers buy you a lot of credibility.
Agreed, and when you add in ratings, which often beat men's basketball games and sometimes beat professional sports it's easy to see an asset there. Unfortunately, it's difficult to overcome the perception of athletic directors in schools where football is either the primary, or only, sport that matters that women's basketball is essentially a club sport, which might not be far from the truth in their institutions where they never invested in it.
 
Two things really leapt out at me in this story: 1) tampering and 2) consequences for the W.

In a thread on Cori Close’s interview a few weeks ago, she mentioned that players and their parents are constantly being urged to consider transferring by agents, not so much by rival coaches — though this may be a distinction without a difference. Coaches could be sanctioned for this behavior, but can agents? Contracts may be coming soon, and maybe they’ll change this dynamic. And with them we may also see strikes. Unions and contracts may eliminate the need for a portal. The union and its attorneys would probably manage all such things on an ad hoc basis.

As for the W, it’s a business, which means it has to respond to situations like this or perish. It is by no means clear that the economics of the league can afford to match the economics of what college has become. One aspect of the game that may change is a growing focus on marketability of its product. We may not like the idea of regulating it, but the league may have to consider adjusting how refs control the game so as to make it less of a brawlers league. It also can’t afford to allow its most marketable players be unavailable do to hard fouls that produce injuries. It may also start tinkering with limiting tattoos and similar aesthetic elements. It has a product to sell and whether we like it or not, to expand its market it has to appeal to broader tastes. We can complain that the MNBA doesn’t think about regulating how players look. But the economics of that league is expansive enough not to require it.

As a college professor I can’t help but see unionization of students as a threat to the classroom.
It's definitely a new era in college ball. You are correct that contracts, unions and all that goes seems the direction this is going at some point in the not-too-distant future. Change seems inevitable as $ has taken over and have to wonder if that could be behind some of the great, name coaches leaving the game.

Regarding ithe W's marketability and the actual marketing by the W, looking at it from afar I would have to give them no more than a "D-". They have failed to not incorporate the "latest and greatest" newbies like Paige, Caitlin and Angel and weaving them into the fabric of the W certainly to the disappointment of all the talented professionals who have played and are playing. I think they were completely unprepared for the reaction caused by CC but also failed at the start to get on the wave of popularity and use it to market the W effectively. As I say this, there will be those who point to the increase in attendance at games. Great. But did the W create that through marketing or was it the beneficiary of the CC Effect? I think we all know the answer to that. How many years can the W survive, however, if it is a business continually losing money? (Annual revenue in 2024 of $160M resulting in a loss of $50M and with projections to lose $40M this year). One hopes it can right the ship and stay afloat because it has a product that better marketing certainly could change.
 
All you have to look at is Texas Tech in Women's Softball. Paid over a million a year for Canady. They also tampered early and have all-americans transferring in from other major programs (UCLA, Florida, etc.. They are trying to buy a championship with their Matador Club.
 
I’m always dubious of university accounting, having seen it from the inside for decades. Concepts like profit or loss don’t operate there as they do elsewhere. A mix of endowment revenue, annual fundraising, state subsidies and tuition revenue is part of every calculation of whether a school or a program is in the red or the black. It is not simply a question of expenditure given the unpredictability of three of these elements.
I agree 100% Mr. Dog. The books are not exactly GAP. Too much nonsense and moving pieces to say one way or another. For example: 1 state agency (UConn) paying $50K to another state agency (Peoples Bank) for every game played there. Decreed by the state of CT, I suspect to prop Hartford up. Plus, I have no clue how the financials, such as they are, could be broken out by sport.
 
.-.
Two things really leapt out at me in this story: 1) tampering and 2) consequences for the W.

In a thread on Cori Close’s interview a few weeks ago, she mentioned that players and their parents are constantly being urged to consider transferring by agents, not so much by rival coaches — though this may be a distinction without a difference. Coaches could be sanctioned for this behavior, but can agents? Contracts may be coming soon, and maybe they’ll change this dynamic. And with them we may also see strikes. Unions and contracts may eliminate the need for a portal. The union and its attorneys would probably manage all such things on an ad hoc basis.

As for the W, it’s a business, which means it has to respond to situations like this or perish. It is by no means clear that the economics of the league can afford to match the economics of what college has become. One aspect of the game that may change is a growing focus on marketability of its product. We may not like the idea of regulating it, but the league may have to consider adjusting how refs control the game so as to make it less of a brawlers league. It also can’t afford to allow its most marketable players be unavailable do to hard fouls that produce injuries. It may also start tinkering with limiting tattoos and similar aesthetic elements. It has a product to sell and whether we like it or not, to expand its market it has to appeal to broader tastes. We can complain that the MNBA doesn’t think about regulating how players look. But the economics of that league is expansive enough not to require it.

As a college professor I can’t help but see unionization of students as a threat to the classroom.
1). This is supposed to happen with the emphasis on "freedom of movement" this season. Time will tell, however at this point, the physicality hasn't changed much.

2). The tattoo conversation always intrigues me as I don't understand the overall fuss. Is it generational, cultural, etc.? Even in corporate environments, I don't see them being hidden at the workplace anymore like it used to be. Nor do I see it limited to certain age groups as I know many people much older than myself still adding pieces to what they already have. I don't see how limiting tattoos will enhance marketability when they're a lot more common in today's society.
 
The tattoo conversation always intrigues me as I don't understand the overall fuss. Is it generational, cultural, etc.? Even in corporate environments, I don't see them being hidden at the workplace anymore like it used to be. Nor do I see it limited to certain age groups as I know many people much older than myself still adding pieces to what they already have. I don't see how limiting tattoos will enhance marketability when they're a lot more common in today's society.
Personally, I’m indifferent to personal choices like tattoos. To each her own. But this represents a limiting condition to the breadth of appeal of the league. And it’s unfair that this impinges on women’s freedom more than on men’s. Now I haven’t been tracking this, so it’s possible that the tattoo culture in the W is already receding.

By the way, I’m dubious that tattoos are freely displayed in corporate offices. Are folks displaying full sleeves or are we talking face tattoos?
 
It's definitely a new era in college ball. You are correct that contracts, unions and all that goes seems the direction this is going at some point in the not-too-distant future. Change seems inevitable as $ has taken over and have to wonder if that could be behind some of the great, name coaches leaving the game.

Regarding ithe W's marketability and the actual marketing by the W, looking at it from afar I would have to give them no more than a "D-". They have failed to not incorporate the "latest and greatest" newbies like Paige, Caitlin and Angel and weaving them into the fabric of the W certainly to the disappointment of all the talented professionals who have played and are playing. I think they were completely unprepared for the reaction caused by CC but also failed at the start to get on the wave of popularity and use it to market the W effectively. As I say this, there will be those who point to the increase in attendance at games. Great. But did the W create that through marketing or was it the beneficiary of the CC Effect? I think we all know the answer to that. How many years can the W survive, however, if it is a business continually losing money? (Annual revenue in 2024 of $160M resulting in a loss of $50M and with projections to lose $40M this year). One hopes it can right the ship and stay afloat because it has a product that better marketing certainly could change.
The WNBA's marketing has been perplexing, especially under the current commissioner's run. When you compare what Unrivaled and Athletes Unlimited have done, you'd think they'd take some pages out of their book and leverage it to their advantage.

The numbers behind the profitability of the WNBA will always get some skepticism from me because of the limited information that is available. Per this BNN article at the start of the season, it's noted that not a lot of data is provided to verify what is reported
The ownership structure between the NBA and WNBA owners muddies the waters as well. Then there's the new TV deal will kick in more money. Will this help stem some of those losses that have been experienced in the past? Who knows?

 
Personally, I’m indifferent to personal choices like tattoos. To each her own. But this represents a limiting condition to the breadth of appeal of the league. And it’s unfair that this impinges on women’s freedom more than on men’s. Now I haven’t been tracking this, so it’s possible that the tattoo culture in the W is already receding.

By the way, I’m dubious that tattoos are freely displayed in corporate offices. Are folks displaying full sleeves or are we talking face tattoos?
1a). Maybe from your vantage point. This hasn't been the impression from those I talk to about the WNBA who are casual or new fans.

1b). As to receding, that's hard to gauge as tattoos and where they're placed depends on the person. For all we know, they all could have tattoos but their locations aren't visible to everyone.

2). I've seen full sleeves and neck work at my organization, which has offices nationally and internationally. Not on faces just yet, but who knows? ;)
 
Recruiting the superstar did not distort her team. What distorted the team was her failure to make the superstar play as part of the team. The result was not a team at all but rather JuJu and four acolytes. The question is; was she pressured into playing that way (85-95%) or did she actually believe it was the best way to play? (5-15%) Either way, her standing as a coach diminished greatly in my eyes.
Not sure in what way So Cal with JuJu could be viewed as a failure.
 
I've seen full sleeves and neck work at my organization, which has offices nationally and internationally. Not on faces just yet, but who knows?
Interesting. I assumed you meant white collar office jobs. I’m not all that familiar with corporate culture anymore. I was assuming that people in those offices (not working remotely) would not be able to display full sleeves. Perhaps they’re wearing short sleeves? Or it’s on casual fridays?
 
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Interesting. I assumed you meant white collar office jobs. I’m not all that familiar with corporate culture anymore. I was assuming that people in those offices (not working remotely) would not be able to display full sleeves. Perhaps they’re wearing short sleeves? Or it’s on casual fridays?
Short sleeves, yes. Casual Fridays, no. Provided you're in business casual attire, people don't get the side eye for doing so.

I get your point about the double standard, however this is something women have faced for centuries and things eventually change. From skirts to shorts, processed hair to natural, or keeping relationships private to being openly public. Unfortunately, it's a story as old as time but the league continues to persevere.
 
Any program is as good as it's leader and when Geno retires UConn will have a legacy for sure but in a lot of ways will be starting over. The real question is are there any good young coaches who can recruit like Dawn and coach like Geno? To be honest I think South Carolina has underachieved over the past ten years on the court when you consider the level of talent they have had over that time. UConn on the other hand has been right there every year even though the level of talent was not at UConn levels and when they did have the talent they had too many injuries.

Teams like USC and UCLA this past year proved that you have to have more than good players to win a championship. In fact I would say Texas or Tennessee might reach that level before either of the west coast teams.

But to me the thing that is going to be interesting is how the freedom of movement of the players will impact the overall popularity of the game. The teams that build from recruiting will always have the best teams but likely won't have the best individual players. If money becomes a factor then teams in the big conferences will have an advantage that will be hard to compete with.
 
Recruiting the superstar did not distort her team. What distorted the team was her failure to make the superstar play as part of the team. The result was not a team at all but rather JuJu and four acolytes. The question is; was she pressured into playing that way (85-95%) or did she actually believe it was the best way to play? (5-15%) Either way, her standing as a coach diminished greatly in my eyes.
Big Ten coach of the year, one of the acolytes is one of the best rookies in the WNBA.
 

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