Can WBB teams catch up to UConn or S Carolina in a changing era?

[visitingcock]

You mistakenly believe the amount the athlete would have been paid caps the damages. That would only apply if the university expressly agreed to it in a liquidated damages provision. A reasonably awake university lawyer could craft a contract dealing with the various elements of the university's special damages were the athlete to leave recited the inherent difficulty is ascertaining those sums and establish a liquidated damages clause. Going back a ways in jolly old England there was this case called Hadley v. Baxendale 1854 .... I have to stop, the horrror of it all is coming back!

If the amount exceeds the contract price, it smells of penalty because liquidated damages must be a reasonable approximation of foreseeable damages to the non -breaching party but they cannot simply be a penalty.

You resort to old common law - which Is more relevant than most would suspect. That shows how tough the field of study can be. University lawyers are good and won’t allow their client to use an easily beaten adhesion agreement signed by an 18 year old. It will be tough but I’m sure they can come up with something that will work. But it won’t be a simple penalty clause. That is why I raise the issue to point out that a simple boilerplate penalty clause is not good enough.

Hadley v Baxendal gives me headaches too.

 

[JstVisiting]

Amazes me that anyone thinks the House NIL review system has a snowball's chance in court.

 

[Gamecockfan77]

Why would a player in the SEC want to join a union with players from 300 schools who have no money? Why would a Juju want to join a union?

maybe a union would foot the bill for challenging the NCAAs presumably illegal attempt to put the genie back in the bottle by limiting the ability of athletes to maximize the amount folks want to pay them.

 

[Cuango]

Gotta say I am totally puzzled by the behavior or lack of it by the WNBA infrastructure, most of all their Commissioner.

The Commissioner is basically a joke! She is so afraid of the players and their union that she essentially is a figurehead to rubber stamp anything they want. The owners are the ones that puzzle me. They have real power but seem content with the status quo. A status quo with a very limited shelf life, imo. It will not be long before injuries and fights begin to increase to unacceptable levels. I think they were very fortunate to get Clark through last season without a major, possibly criminal, injury. That seems to have eased off somewhat this season but otherwise, the rough play is getting worse league wide as the refereeing borders on the comical. I really wonder if the reported success of the Unrivaled League will not ultimately result in the formation of some alternate 5 on 5 league that will eventually supplant the W. I know that is a long shot but it could happen if they don’t find some way to turn the car away from the cliff they seem to be heading for. Anyway, one wonders what our sport is going to look like in five or six years? Hopefully nothing like the W, but lots of changes in a relatively short amount of time can have powerful effects on virtually anything.

 

[boontonbomber]

But can teams catch up to UConn or SC? Yes or no? I say yes, but I'm no lawyer.

 

[Cuango]

But can teams catch up to UConn or SC? Yes or no? I say yes, but I'm no lawyer.

Doubtful! Imo

 

[Skeets]

But can teams catch up to UConn or SC? Yes or no? I say yes, but I'm no lawyer.

A whole bunch of people in this thread sound like lawyers. I am sorry for them. Everyone knows the difference between a catfish and a lawyer, right?

 

[visitingcock]

But can teams catch up to UConn or SC? Yes or no? I say yes, but I'm no lawyer.

Yes. But no Guarantee on when.
Kim and LSU may be closer to closing the gap than people think at this time. She just needs to establish some consistency of success. I expect her to have a power decade with ten or more consecutive years of being a factor in the tournament. That will give her program the recruiting success( number one last year) that she can combine with her NIl/portal power.

Much will depend on administrative support for wbb. Vic appears to have that support. Not sure yet about UCLA and U$C. Caldwell will have it if she steadily climbs the ladder of tournament success. Watch out for Campbell at TCU who just keeps on over-performing.

Yeah. Somebody will. But who and when.

 

[boontonbomber]

A whole bunch of people in this thread sound like lawyers. I am sorry for them. Everyone knows the difference between a catfish and a lawyer, right?

Don't know the difference. But I do know that laboratory people have replaced rats with lawyers, because there are more lawyers than rats, and lab workers get less attached to the lawyers.

 

[Bone Dog]

Yes. But no Guarantee on when.
Kim and LSU may be closer to closing the gap than people think at this time. She just needs to establish some consistency of success. I expect her to have a power decade with ten or more consecutive years of being a factor in the tournament. That will give her program the recruiting success( number one last year) that she can combine with her NIl/portal power.

Much will depend on administrative support for wbb. Vic appears to have that support. Not sure yet about UCLA and U$C. Caldwell will have it if she steadily climbs the ladder of tournament success. Watch out for Campbell at TCU who just keeps on over-performing.

Yeah. Somebody will. But who and when.

You have hit the nail on the head. The problem is getting the right mix of recruiting and ‘portal power.’ The lesson from Dawn and Geno seems to be that 50-50 or 60-40 is the wrong ratio. Maybe something closer to 90-10. The problem for the wannabes is that they’re in a hurry and building through recruitment takes too long for them. Of that group, I have a feeling Campbell is closer to solving the puzzle than Kim is.

I’m also struck by the case of UCLA. Cori relied perhaps too much on the portal and lost her entire freshman class as a result. And even worse, the team she’d put together, which was widely regarded as a juggernaut all season, folded like a house of cards in the tournament.

USC is a similar case, though perhaps not quite so dire. Coach Gottlieb had a great recruiting class and then took in portal players over it and it cost her some of her best freshmen. And to draw a bright line under it, that team made it to the elite eight and gave UConn its toughest test. Some might look wistfully to the loss of Juju and think they might have won that game but for that. However I think they were a better team without her, at least as constituted at that moment. A lot of folks dismiss Lindsay as a coach, but I actually thinks she’s quite good. She seems to have had the misfortune of recruiting a superstar and it distorted her team for two years in a row. Maybe it will be different when she returns.

 

[visitingcock]

You have hit the nail on the head. The problem is getting the right mix of recruiting and ‘portal power.’ The lesson from Dawn and Geno seems to be that 50-50 or 60-40 is the wrong ratio. Maybe something closer to 90-10. The problem for the wannabes is that they’re in a hurry and building through recruitment takes too long for them. Of that group, I have a feeling Campbell is closer to solving the puzzle than Kim is.

I’m also struck by the case of UCLA. Cori relied perhaps too much on the portal and lost her entire freshman class as a result. And even worse, the team she’d put together, which was widely regarded as a juggernaut all season, folded like a house of cards in the tournament.

USC is a similar case, though perhaps not quite so dire. Coach Gottlieb had a great recruiting class and then took in portal players over it and it cost her some of her best freshmen. And to draw a bright line under it, that team made it to the elite eight and gave UConn its toughest test. Some might look wistfully to the loss of Juju and think they might have won that game but for that. However I think they were a better team without her, at least as constituted at that moment. A lot of folks dismiss Lindsay as a coach, but I actually thinks she’s quite good. She seems to have had the misfortune of recruiting a superstar and it distorted her team for two years in a row. Maybe it will be different when she returns.

I was impressed with the team Lindsey put together from lower end transfers the year before she signed Juju. No top notch players but they played winning basketball in the PAC and were quite competitive with a handful of upsets. Made the tournament after a decade absence under her predecessor.

 

[CTBballfan243]

Can women’s basketball teams catch up to UConn or South Carolina in a changing era?

Big money deals and unprecedented transfer rates. How are coaches navigating the new era and what's to come?

www.nytimes.com

“Coaches are questioning, obviously: Is it even worth it to be in this business? What are we doing? What are we doing if we can’t build a program and you’re starting from scratch every year to build a team without any rules around it?” one power conference coach said. “What are we doing? And why are we doing it?”​

​

“I have to change. I have to pivot and plan for 50 percent attrition,” another power conference coach added. “Time will tell if you can build a program (in this era). If I can’t build a program, I’m not going to be doing it very long.”​

​

“If I can keep the kid for two years,” one said, “I feel like I’ve won the lottery.”​

​

This attrition has had a ripple effect on how college coaches prioritize high school recruiting. Many staff chose not to send multiple (or any) coaches on the road this offseason for the first high school recruiting evaluation period, valuing hosting immediate impact players over seeing talent who wouldn’t be on campus for a few years.​

​

That signals a significant shift in the overall recruiting philosophy. Five years ago, the lifeblood of almost every program was high school recruiting. Now, the portal offers another option. Multiple coaches said that their focus on high school recruits has decreased from 95-100 percent of their recruiting efforts to somewhere between 50-70 percent. Nearly 80 power conference freshmen transferred this offseason, so coaches also realize that bringing in a freshman doesn’t necessarily mean stability.​

I think the better question would be “Will UConn be able to keep up?” UConn just doesn’t have the money that the P2 teams have. At some point in the very near future the disparity in revenue will be to great for UConn to overcome. Hopefully Geno and CD can hold on just a few years longer to see if UConn can get out of the purgatory that is the Big East.

 

[Skeets]

Don't know the difference. But I do know that laboratory people have replaced rats with lawyers, because there are more lawyers than rats, and lab workers get less attached to the lawyers.

LOL. I'm risking a 30-day time out from Nan, but the difference is one is a scum sucking bottom dweller and the other is a fish.

 

[PJCLaw]

If the amount exceeds the contract price, it smells of penalty because liquidated damages must be a reasonable approximation of foreseeable damages to the non -breaching party but they cannot simply be a penalty.

You resort to old common law - which Is more relevant than most would suspect. That shows how tough the field of study can be. University lawyers are good and won’t allow their client to use an easily beaten adhesion agreement signed by an 18 year old. It will be tough but I’m sure they can come up with something that will work. But it won’t be a simple penalty clause. That is why I raise the issue to point out that a simple boilerplate penalty clause is not good enough.

Hadley v Baxendal gives me headaches too.

Well reasoned. I agree. We all have memories of Hadley v. Baxendale, and usually not good ones. After 29 years practicing law, I am still surprised how some seemingly established organizations rely on bad contracts to do business.

 

[Cuango]

You have hit the nail on the head. The problem is getting the right mix of recruiting and ‘portal power.’ The lesson from Dawn and Geno seems to be that 50-50 or 60-40 is the wrong ratio. Maybe something closer to 90-10. The problem for the wannabes is that they’re in a hurry and building through recruitment takes too long for them. Of that group, I have a feeling Campbell is closer to solving the puzzle than Kim is.

I’m also struck by the case of UCLA. Cori relied perhaps too much on the portal and lost her entire freshman class as a result. And even worse, the team she’d put together, which was widely regarded as a juggernaut all season, folded like a house of cards in the tournament.

USC is a similar case, though perhaps not quite so dire. Coach Gottlieb had a great recruiting class and then took in portal players over it and it cost her some of her best freshmen. And to draw a bright line under it, that team made it to the elite eight and gave UConn its toughest test. Some might look wistfully to the loss of Juju and think they might have won that game but for that. However I think they were a better team without her, at least as constituted at that moment. A lot of folks dismiss Lindsay as a coach, but I actually thinks she’s quite good. She seems to have had the misfortune of recruiting a superstar and it distorted her team for two years in a row. Maybe it will be different when she returns.

Recruiting the superstar did not distort her team. What distorted the team was her failure to make the superstar play as part of the team. The result was not a team at all but rather JuJu and four acolytes. The question is; was she pressured into playing that way (85-95%) or did she actually believe it was the best way to play? (5-15%) Either way, her standing as a coach diminished greatly in my eyes.

 

[Bald Husky]

LOL. I'm risking a 30-day time out from Nan, but the difference is one is a scum sucking bottom dweller and the other is a fish.

Scum sucking bottom dweller, until you need one, right? My son is an attorney for the state of New York and I am very proud of him. His job is to investigate bad lawyers, and guess what? He has found that they are not all bad. Just sayin.

 

[CL82]

I think the better question would be “Will UConn be able to keep up?” UConn just doesn’t have the money that the P2 teams have. At some point in the very near future the disparity in revenue will be to great for UConn to overcome. Hopefully Geno and CD can hold on just a few years longer to see if UConn can get out of the purgatory that is the Big East.

The state and the university have taken the position that UConn will have a competitive budget. I don't see that changing anytime soon.

 

[oldude]

The state and the university have taken the position that UConn will have a competitive budget. I don't see that changing anytime soon.

It’s easy to be intimidated by the P4 schools. But a lot of that is about college football. When it comes to WBB, UConn is one of the very few D1 programs in the nation that operates in the black. For the record, SC WBB loses money. Obviously, SC’s take of SEC football revenue gives the AD more financial resources to move around if he so chooses. But big time college football is a hungry beast that continues to require more care and feeding every year.

 

[CL82]

It’s easy to be intimidated by the P4 schools. But a lot of that is about college football. When it comes to WBB, UConn is one of the very few D1 programs in the nation that operates in the black. For the record, SC WBB loses money. Obviously, SC’s take of SEC football revenue gives the AD more financial resources to move around if he so chooses. But big time college football is a hungry beast that continues to require more care and feeding every year.

Actually, though I haven't checked for last year, I believe that over the past half dozen years or so, we've been in the red for women's basketball. That's OK so long as the state and the university agreed that it's a cost they're willing to bear.

 

[Bone Dog]

Actually, though I haven't checked for last year, I believe that over the past half dozen years or so, we've been in the red for women's basketball. That's OK so long as the state and the university agreed that it's a cost they're willing to bear.

I’m always dubious of university accounting, having seen it from the inside for decades. Concepts like profit or loss don’t operate there as they do elsewhere. A mix of endowment revenue, annual fundraising, state subsidies and tuition revenue is part of every calculation of whether a school or a program is in the red or the black. It is not simply a question of expenditure given the unpredictability of three of these elements.

 

[CL82]

I’m always dubious of university accounting, having seen it from the inside for decades. Concepts like profit or loss don’t operate there as they do elsewhere. A mix of endowment revenue, annual fundraising, state subsidies and tuition revenue is part of every calculation of whether a school or a program is in the red or the black. It is not simply a question of expenditure given the unpredictability of three of these elements.

100% agree. Inter department transfers create "paper losses" wherever they want them to be. I'm particularly skeptical of "tuition" charges which are often booked at an undiscounted rate that relatively few US citizens actually pay.

 

[oldude]

I’m always dubious of university accounting, having seen it from the inside for decades. Concepts like profit or loss don’t operate there as they do elsewhere. A mix of endowment revenue, annual fundraising, state subsidies and tuition revenue is part of every calculation of whether a school or a program is in the red or the black. It is not simply a question of expenditure given the unpredictability of three of these elements.

100% agree. Inter department transfers create "paper losses" wherever they want them to be. I'm particularly skeptical of "tuition" charges which are often booked at an undiscounted rate that relatively few US citizens actually pay.

While I acknowledge that there’s some creative accounting involved when it comes to college athletics, the one thing that is clear is that UConn is the first WBB program to exceed $3 million in ticket sales, hitting $3.25 million in 2024. Those numbers buy you a lot of credibility.

 

[visitingcock]

While I acknowledge that there’s some creative accounting involved when it comes to college athletics, the one thing that is clear is that UConn is the first WBB program to exceed $3 million in ticket sales, hitting $3.25 million in 2024. Those numbers buy you a lot of credibility.

Well, those numbers will buy you a championship level coach anyways.

 

[oldude]

Well, those numbers will buy you a championship level coach anyways.

Geno’s base salary is only around $600,000 per year. With media, consulting and speaking engagements his total annual compensation is somewhere north of $3 million.

 

[CL82]

While I acknowledge that there’s some creative accounting involved when it comes to college athletics, the one thing that is clear is that UConn is the first WBB program to exceed $3 million in ticket sales, hitting $3.25 million in 2024. Those numbers buy you a lot of credibility.

Agreed, and when you add in ratings, which often beat men's basketball games and sometimes beat professional sports it's easy to see an asset there. Unfortunately, it's difficult to overcome the perception of athletic directors in schools where football is either the primary, or only, sport that matters that women's basketball is essentially a club sport, which might not be far from the truth in their institutions where they never invested in it.