Can a stacked team win without a great coach?

[Jaydumo20]

I am biased but I think Dan Hurley is the best coach in the game. Granted, we've re recruited really well, but we still weren't loaded with your traditional UK/Duke/KU class of all 5stars. Here are some questions to consider:

1) this year is full of big money rosters within mediocre programs. Which teams will make their coaches look better than they are?

2) which coach will win despite an average roster?

3) historically, can you point to instances where a coach won a Natty with a mediocre team, or vice versa?

 

[Jaydumo20]

I think Rutgers and IU classes will make it Iook like SP and MW have finally figured it out. Note* I said "look like"

 

[Scottzer]

This will sound crazy to say on this board but number 3 was satisfied by KO in 2014. That team - by all metrics standards, should not have won a title. Yet, for that season, which really didn’t have great teams anywhere, perhaps apart from Louisville, UConn had one of the hardest paths and got it done.

 

[awy]

cbb is getting better, probably not?

the best example of a stacked team that didn't win because of bad coaching was when duke had zion.

 

[TheShot1990]

The best example of a stacked team not getting it done was the 1999 Duke blue Devils

William Avery – NBA
Shane Battier – NBA
Corey Maggette – NBA
Elton Brand – NBA
Travon Langdon – NBA

And all went in the first 14 if I remember correctly.

Can anybody remember which team beat them?

 

[superjohn]

This will sound crazy to say on this board but number 3 was satisfied by KO in 2014. That team - by all metrics standards, should not have won a title. Yet, for that season, which really didn’t have great teams anywhere, perhaps apart from Louisville, UConn had one of the hardest paths and got it done.

Agreed but we had the best player in the country and he played the most important position. We weren't at all deep with talent and we were a donut at center for a national champion but the best player in the country, Boat, and Daniels gave us that big three you need to go on a run in the tournament. Giffey would've been a top 50 recruit if he was American and he gave us the three point shooting and a willingness to be that jack of all trades guy that winning teams need.

 

[WillB4]

Does the Squid come to mind?

 

[Jaydumo20]

The best example of a stacked team not getting it done was the 1999 Duke blue Devils

William Avery – NBA
Shane Battier – NBA
Corey Maggette – NBA
Elton Brand – NBA
Travon Langdon – NBA

And all went in the first 14 if I remember correctly.

Can anybody remember which team beat them?

I'll have to check...
I'm curious how people view those 90-91 UNLV teams? Was it them or Tark?

 

[Scottzer]

I'll have to check...
I'm curious how people view those 90-91 UNLV teams? Was it them or Tark?

I get that he had a lot of dirty money players, but Atari was not a bad coach. That 90 team played harder than anyone, on top of having the most talent.

 

[awy]

the 99 Duke team was extremely stacked but the coaching job there wasn't terrible. they just got beat by great team and great coaching.

the Zion Duke team was pretty ghastly coaching wise.

 

[Deleted at users request]

This will sound crazy to say on this board but number 3 was satisfied by KO in 2014. That team - by all metrics standards, should not have won a title. Yet, for that season, which really didn’t have great teams anywhere, perhaps apart from Louisville, UConn had one of the hardest paths and got it done.

I’d probably put 2011 in the same category. We had no business winning with the talent we had. Kemba Walker was special though.

I don’t think we’re loaded with 5*s like past Duke, UK, etc. teams. But would anyone say that we didn’t have head and shoulders more talent than anyone these past 2 years?

 

[Hoophound]

Hopefully, Dan is the best coach in the game. However, I tend to think we have the best coaching staff in the game and that each of the guys is integral to our success. Based on their willingness to stick around, I think they may agree.

 

[willie99]

UK has been answering that question for a decade

And Dook more recently

 

[Yorkeez4]

I think Syracuse did it once !

 

[auror]

Calipari has a title, so yeah.

 

[Scottzer]

In terms of a stacked team winning with a bad coach - maybe Dean Smith? Guy had so much talent on so many teams, but I think he only won two titles.

 

[willie99]

Both Boeheim and Squid only won when they had a generational player

One time, Melo and AD

Many many many more disappointments

 

[uconngb]

The best example of a stacked team not getting it done was the 1999 Duke blue Devils

William Avery – NBA
Shane Battier – NBA
Corey Maggette – NBA
Elton Brand – NBA
Travon Langdon – NBA

And all went in the first 14 if I remember correctly.

Can anybody remember which team beat them?

And how many NBA players that winning team had ??

 

[navery12]

To win a title you basically have to be a really good to great coach. There's really no exceptions in the last 20 years. To lose in the title game the bar is much much lower though, so you can definitely luck into some deep runs as a mediocre coach

 

[superjohn]

To win a title you basically have to be a really good to great coach. There's really no exceptions in the last 20 years. To lose in the title game the bar is much much lower though, so you can definitely luck into some deep runs as a mediocre coach

View attachment 103711

Ollie sticks out like a sore thumb. I'm also not a fan of Tony Bennett. He has a great record and his teams play defense but his offense is unwatchable and other coaches seem to have figured him out.

 

[navery12]

Ollie sticks out like a sore thumb. I'm also not a fan of Tony Bennett. He has a great record and his teams play defense but his offense is unwatchable and other coaches seem to have figured him out.

Yeah I think the shine has worn off of Tony Bennett. I never liked him because that style of play is just awful to watch, but at least now every commentator isn't fawning over how difficult it is to play Virginia with no prep every March

 

[Hans Sprungfeld]

Ollie sticks out like a sore thumb. I'm also not a fan of Tony Bennett. He has a great record and his teams play defense but his offense is unwatchable and other coaches seem to have figured him out.

Leaving aside what happened afterward, what's your personal take on how Ollie notched 6 consecutive victories, defeating Martelli, Wright, Izzo, Hoiberg, Donovan, and Calipari (who have won a total of 6 National Championships), and noting that each of the defeated opponents were at the top of their respective conferences, or had the top-ranked freshman class?

 

[Deleted at users request]

To win a title you basically have to be a really good to great coach. There's really no exceptions in the last 20 years. To lose in the title game the bar is much much lower though, so you can definitely luck into some deep runs as a mediocre coach

View attachment 103711

Feel like Scott Drew also sticks out to go with Bennett. Been at Baylor since 2003 and had a random spring of success during this time.

That 2021 squad was super duper talented though.

 

[superjohn]

Leaving aside what happened afterward, what's your personal take on how Ollie notched 6 consecutive victories, defeating Martelli, Wright, Izzo, Hoiberg, Donovan, and Calipari (who have won a total of 6 National Championships), and noting that each of the defeated opponents were at the top of their respective conferences, or had the top-ranked freshman class?

A coach and a team that was on a heater. Ollie pushed all the right buttons and Shabazz was the best player in the country. Stellar guard play can cover up other deficiencies teams have in the tournament and we had the best guards. They got under the skin of the (MSU, Florida, and Kentucky) backcourts defensively and had those offenses discombobulated because of it. On offense Bazz and Boat bailed us out over and over again at the end of the shot clock. Add in Daniels becoming that third scoring option that nobody really had an answer for with the best ft shooting I've ever seen and it was a difficult team to stop. Playing games at MSG and avoiding Louisville helped.

 

[willie99]

Ollie sticks out like a sore thumb. I'm also not a fan of Tony Bennett. He has a great record and his teams play defense but his offense is unwatchable and other coaches seem to have figured him out.

I was thinking the same thing about the same two coaches. I don't think anyone calls them "great" coaches today.

 

[RichZ]

This will sound crazy to say on this board but number 3 was satisfied by KO in 2014. That team - by all metrics standards, should not have won a title. Yet, for that season, which really didn’t have great teams anywhere, perhaps apart from Louisville, UConn had one of the hardest paths and got it done.

That's what came into my mind as well. But that's based on foggy memory, and while we certainly weren't favored to win it, it wasn't THAT much of a turnaround. When I looked it up, we went into that season ranked 18th and ended the regular season 19th. We ate the non-con schedule like a bag of chips. We beat Florida in early December and suffered our first loss in mid-December to Stanford. 6 of our eventual 8 losses were to teams ranked above us, including a L in the AAC championship game against #2 Louisville.
And after a tough opening game (OT against 10th seed, St Joes) we ran through the tourney that featured a pair of highlight games -- Nova, seeded 2nd in our division, and Florida (again) seeded #1 in the south and ranked #1 in the NCAA poll.
Until I revisited that season after getting intrigued by this post, I considered it a bad year. In retrospect, it really wasn't.

 

[AZHuskiePop]

That's what came into my mind as well. But that's based on foggy memory, and while we certainly weren't favored to win it, it wasn't THAT much of a turnaround. When I looked it up, we went into that season ranked 18th and ended the regular season 19th. We ate the non-con schedule like a bag of chips. We beat Florida in early December and suffered our first loss in mid-December to Stanford. 6 of our eventual 8 losses were to teams ranked above us, including a L in the AAC championship game against #2 Louisville.
And after a tough opening game (OT against 10th seed, St Joes) we ran through the tourney that featured a pair of highlight games -- Nova, seeded 2nd in our division, and Florida (again) seeded #1 in the south and ranked #1 in the NCAA poll.
Until I revisited that season after getting intrigued by this post, I considered it a bad year. In retrospect, it really wasn't.

That team was underseeded for sure
But we’re simply were not the same team in March /April that we were earlier
I think Billy Donavan who had the benefit of seeing us early and late commented . I knew going into the second game that UConn was underrated but I knew we were better and I was pretty confident on a neutral floor . “We ( Fla) were not prepared for the intense team D that team was playing that didn’t enable our excellent guards to get us into our offense “
We probably had the most difficult road to the championship as any team in history but scoring on us became increasingly difficult. Individually that team was talented but as a unit incredible.
We beat the , A10 Champs , The Big East Champs , The Big 12 Champs , The B1G Champs , The SEC Champs , and The hottest and talent loaded SEC runner up
3-4 HOF coaches. . No one has ever done that

 

[Deleted at users request]

That team was underseeded for sure
But we’re simply were not the same team in March /April that we were earlier
I think Billy Donavan who had the benefit of seeing us early and late commented . I knew going into the second game that UConn was underrated but I knew we were better and I was pretty confident on a neutral floor . “We ( Fla) were not prepared for the intense team D that team was playing that didn’t enable our excellent guards to get us into our offense “
We probably had the most difficult road to the championship as any team in history but scoring on us became increasingly difficult. Individually that team was talented but as a unit incredible.
We beat the , A10 Champs , The Big East Champs , The Big 12 Champs , The B1G Champs , The SEC Champs , and The hottest and talent loaded SEC runner up
3-4 HOF coaches. . No one has ever done that

On a team with Phil Nolan as a starting center and a freshman Amida as a backup. All time coaching job.

 

[AZHuskiePop]

When I saw the title
The team you have to think of is Houston Phi Slama Jama . who were beaten by a better coached team of nobodies from NCS .
The most talented team in my memory who failed so the answer is definitely a generationally talented team can be beaten if poorly coached . In my opinion Valvano was a good coach not a great coach . He made a simple adjustment that Lewis‘s team who simply overpowered teams did not havr a clue how to counter.

 

[Waquoit]

A mediocre coach can win if he has the best player. Like Ollie and Boeheim.