Can a stacked team win without a great coach?

[RichZ]

This will sound crazy to say on this board but number 3 was satisfied by KO in 2014. That team - by all metrics standards, should not have won a title. Yet, for that season, which really didn’t have great teams anywhere, perhaps apart from Louisville, UConn had one of the hardest paths and got it done.

That's what came into my mind as well. But that's based on foggy memory, and while we certainly weren't favored to win it, it wasn't THAT much of a turnaround. When I looked it up, we went into that season ranked 18th and ended the regular season 19th. We ate the non-con schedule like a bag of chips. We beat Florida in early December and suffered our first loss in mid-December to Stanford. 6 of our eventual 8 losses were to teams ranked above us, including a L in the AAC championship game against #2 Louisville.
And after a tough opening game (OT against 10th seed, St Joes) we ran through the tourney that featured a pair of highlight games -- Nova, seeded 2nd in our division, and Florida (again) seeded #1 in the south and ranked #1 in the NCAA poll.
Until I revisited that season after getting intrigued by this post, I considered it a bad year. In retrospect, it really wasn't.

 

[AZHuskiePop]

That's what came into my mind as well. But that's based on foggy memory, and while we certainly weren't favored to win it, it wasn't THAT much of a turnaround. When I looked it up, we went into that season ranked 18th and ended the regular season 19th. We ate the non-con schedule like a bag of chips. We beat Florida in early December and suffered our first loss in mid-December to Stanford. 6 of our eventual 8 losses were to teams ranked above us, including a L in the AAC championship game against #2 Louisville.
And after a tough opening game (OT against 10th seed, St Joes) we ran through the tourney that featured a pair of highlight games -- Nova, seeded 2nd in our division, and Florida (again) seeded #1 in the south and ranked #1 in the NCAA poll.
Until I revisited that season after getting intrigued by this post, I considered it a bad year. In retrospect, it really wasn't.

That team was underseeded for sure
But we’re simply were not the same team in March /April that we were earlier
I think Billy Donavan who had the benefit of seeing us early and late commented . I knew going into the second game that UConn was underrated but I knew we were better and I was pretty confident on a neutral floor . “We ( Fla) were not prepared for the intense team D that team was playing that didn’t enable our excellent guards to get us into our offense “
We probably had the most difficult road to the championship as any team in history but scoring on us became increasingly difficult. Individually that team was talented but as a unit incredible.
We beat the , A10 Champs , The Big East Champs , The Big 12 Champs , The B1G Champs , The SEC Champs , and The hottest and talent loaded SEC runner up
3-4 HOF coaches. . No one has ever done that

 

[HuskyWarrior611]

That team was underseeded for sure
But we’re simply were not the same team in March /April that we were earlier
I think Billy Donavan who had the benefit of seeing us early and late commented . I knew going into the second game that UConn was underrated but I knew we were better and I was pretty confident on a neutral floor . “We ( Fla) were not prepared for the intense team D that team was playing that didn’t enable our excellent guards to get us into our offense “
We probably had the most difficult road to the championship as any team in history but scoring on us became increasingly difficult. Individually that team was talented but as a unit incredible.
We beat the , A10 Champs , The Big East Champs , The Big 12 Champs , The B1G Champs , The SEC Champs , and The hottest and talent loaded SEC runner up
3-4 HOF coaches. . No one has ever done that

On a team with Phil Nolan as a starting center and a freshman Amida as a backup. All time coaching job.

 

[AZHuskiePop]

When I saw the title
The team you have to think of is Houston Phi Slama Jama . who were beaten by a better coached team of nobodies from NCS .
The most talented team in my memory who failed so the answer is definitely a generationally talented team can be beaten if poorly coached . In my opinion Valvano was a good coach not a great coach . He made a simple adjustment that Lewis‘s team who simply overpowered teams did not havr a clue how to counter.

 

[Waquoit]

A mediocre coach can win if he has the best player. Like Ollie and Boeheim.

 

[RuffRuff]

1) this year is full of big money rosters within mediocre programs. Which teams will make their coaches look better than they are?

Calipari's roster, having got some big names in the portal with Davis and Aidu, teamed up with some other older carryover players like Brazille/Mark goes against his common approach. As mentioned, Mike Woodson made a haul in the portal and could reap the rewards of covering up some of his coaching gaps.

2) which coach will win despite an average roster?

This day and age, very hard to win the big one without NBA talent on the roster. Tony Bennett typically wins without stars, but his offense is being seen as a bit stale amongst the new gen and impacts his ability to recruit. Pope has done pretty well in the regular season despite not having a super talented roster at BYU. TJ Otzelberger at Iowa St, Kelvin Sampson come to mind. Both emphasize defense. Sampson has an above average roster, but elevates the outcome and squeezes every last drop out of what he has.

3) historically, can you point to instances where a coach won a Natty with a mediocre team, or vice versa?

Some of the more notorious runs: Nova with Rolly, the 2 Uconn runs, NC St 1983. Sometimes it's just about getting hot at the right time. All you need to do here is look at the lowest seeded Champs to find.

 

[HuskyHawk]

To win a title you basically have to be a really good to great coach. There's really no exceptions in the last 20 years. To lose in the title game the bar is much much lower though, so you can definitely luck into some deep runs as a mediocre coach

View attachment 103711

Honestly, the guys who lost, other than Dutcher, are all very good.

As to the premise? You won't have a stacked team in college basketball unless you have a good coach. So it's an impossible hypothetical. Also "stacked" doesn't mean a bunch of 5 star freshmen, those teams will mostly lose even with a good coach. Experience and maturity is very important.

 

[awy]

ollie was a great motivator and in a rather stale cbb environment that was kind of enough. mike k is a politician/power broker kind of guy, coaching style also along same lines. calipari kind of similar but more of a salesman rather than mafia boss.

 

[Jaydumo20]

Honestly, the guys who lost, other than Dutcher, are all very good.

As to the premise? You won't have a stacked team in college basketball unless you have a good coach. So it's an impossible hypothetical. Also "stacked" doesn't mean a bunch of 5 star freshmen, those teams will mostly lose even with a good coach. Experience and maturity is very important.

Penny Hardaway got some pretty great recruits.
I'm sure there are a lot of examples where a sub-par coach got great recruits based on name or school alone. Indiana, Michigan, and OSU have all gotten top recruits with Woodson, Howard, Chris H. over the past few years. Louisville had a top 10 class last year. USC has reeled in some huge freshman talent. I think it's way more common than we think at first glance. We just don't pay attention because these teams never did anything.

 

[CONN78SEJ]

I'll have to check...
I'm curious how people view those 90-91 UNLV teams? Was it them or Tark?

Those teams were definitely stacked, and the coach ate towels during their games.

 

[lonsharkin51]

A mediocre coach can win if he has the best player. Like Ollie and Boeheim.

And Squid and Izzo and Sweaty. Funny how Purdue never got it done with Big Dog or Edey

 

[dennismenace]

Hopefully, Dan is the best coach in the game. However, I tend to think we have the best coaching staff in the game and that each of the guys is integral to our success. Based on their willingness to stick around, I think they may agree.

Whole heartedly agree. The unity of this staff is formidable. The scary thing for our opponents is that I don't see any of them leaving soon. They've got lightening in a bottle and the culture they have created including sophisticated offense, relentless defense and willingness to sacrifice for the sake of the team translates throughout the entire team. I can hardly believe what I am seeing at times. Can't wait til they start up again.

 

[CL82]

I'm also not a fan of Tony Bennett. He has a great record

 

[UCTitleTown]

It happens in the NBA all the time. I always say that great players can coach themselves and anyone can coach a great team. A truly great coach wins with lesser talent.

 

[AZHuskiePop]

ollie was a great motivator and in a rather stale cbb environment that was kind of enough. mike k is a politician/power broker kind of guy, coaching style also along same lines. calipari kind of similar but more of a salesman rather than mafia boss.

i really don’t think most on the board understood the special relationship between Ollie. and that team had.,
I watched hours on of interviews from that time .
Ollie told RB . The undisciplined Chicago kid that he had the potential to become a great defender .RB didn’t believe it but Ollie repeated that everyday in practice for 3 years and guess what he was right
Ollie and Bazz had a father son relationship from day one .
Calhoun the grumpy old white guy would tell him how bad he was as a freshman to the point of tears . Ollie gave him a shoulder to cry on and as a Calhoun PG who understood his style and NBA veteran which gave him immense credibility he would turn that session into a learning experience .
As his guard coach and then head coach they developed a symbiotic relationship rare between coach and PG and SN’s confidence.and skill grew beyond the limits of his athleticism.
Ollie was obviously a great guard coach whose lack of managerial skills and desire to improve in that area doomed him.which was tragic.
Even Kemba’s confidence grew when he came on board . That hesitation was totally gone
His relationships with DD was more of a west coast guy out of place in Ct had a guy from LA that helped him adjust .
He was also a bust as a freshman and KO pumped him up especially as a defender and knockdown shooter .
Giffey was a strange guy but as a failure for two years when JC left his choices were transfer to a mid major , go back to Germany or stay with his friends and see what was going to happen. He found that just because you’re not great in a specific thing doesn’t mean you can’t contribute in a lot of different ways that hold the team together. The ultimate glue guy .
When Your a 7 seed playing a 2 and the score is tied at the half pretty much telling the TV audience the game was in the bag is the type of confidence that makes you tough to beat .

 

[g_smith]

This will sound crazy to say on this board but number 3 was satisfied by KO in 2014. That team - by all metrics standards, should not have won a title. Yet, for that season, which really didn’t have great teams anywhere, perhaps apart from Louisville, UConn had one of the hardest paths and got it done.

Confirmed

 

[g_smith]

Leaving aside what happened afterward, what's your personal take on how Ollie notched 6 consecutive victories, defeating Martelli, Wright, Izzo, Hoiberg, Donovan, and Calipari (who have won a total of 6 National Championships), and noting that each of the defeated opponents were at the top of their respective conferences, or had the top-ranked freshman class?

Calhoun’s recruits & Ollie rode the wave. Calhoun stuck around the program & continued to push for greatness. Ollie was able to help them believe.

His mistake was pushing Calhoun away after the success. That decision, his divorce, & the AAC combined to ruin the guy.

But important side note - without that brimah And-1 in round of 64 - that seasons ends with a first round exit. It was one March madness play away from starting the dark years even earlier.

 

[temery]

Confirmed
View attachment 103764

1992?

 

[Waquoit]

Ollie was obviously a great guard coach...

If this was true, we would have seen some evidence of the greatness after Bazz graduated.

 

[HuskyWarrior611]

If this was true, we would have seen some evidence of the greatness after Bazz graduated.

Guards were never an issue under Ollie. He just sucked with bigs.

Boatright and Jalen Adams were great guards. In Adams case he was on horrible, injury riddled teams.

 

[dennismenace]

It happens in the NBA all the time. I always say that great players can coach themselves and anyone can coach a great team. A truly great coach wins with lesser talent.

It was once said of Casey Stengel when managing the 1950's Yankees that Shirley Temple could have managed them to all the pennants.

 

[g_smith]

1992?

Rumor has it Duke won 1992 but the viewers choice was UConn

 

[Kitaman]

Leaving aside what happened afterward, what's your personal take on how Ollie notched 6 consecutive victories, defeating Martelli, Wright, Izzo, Hoiberg, Donovan, and Calipari (who have won a total of 6 National Championships), and noting that each of the defeated opponents were at the top of their respective conferences, or had the top-ranked freshman class?

I think 'Coach' Bazz deserves a lot of credit here. The Senior 1st team All American 'Jersey Hangin' Champion point guard knew what needed to get done to win a Championship and was a conductor of men out there.

 

[HuskyWarrior611]

I think 'Coach' Bazz deserves a lot of credit here. The Senior 1st team All American 'Jersey Hangin' Champion point guard knew what needed to get done to win a Championship and was a conductor of men out there.

Did Coach Bazz develop and teach himself how to run the team?