Caitlin Clark

[Moogs]

Again, this isn't meant to slight UConn. They have really great players. Iowa has some good players too. Both have good players that weren't ranked. But it seems pretty clear to me from the tables below that Iowa needs Clark to do more and that's okay. She's certainly not perfect and can get better, but she's an incredible talent and is great for women's basketball (right along with Paige and Azzi).

UConn's Roster

Player	ESPN Rank​	Year​	Current MPG​
Christyn Williams	1​	2018​	35.1​
Paige Bueckers	1​	2020​	36.2​
Azzi Fudd	1​	2021​	24.4​
Evina Westbrook	2​	2017​	31.3​
Olivia Nelson-Ododa	5​	2018​	29.3​
Caroline Ducharme	5​	2021​	25.5​
Amari Deberry	15​	2021​	7.3​
Aubrey Griffin	21​	2019​	0​
Aaliyah Edwards	23​	2020​	23.2​
Dorka Juhasz	n/a​	2018​	22​
Nika Muhl	n/a​	2020​	21.9​
Piath Gabriel	n/a​	2020​	5.2​

Iowa's Roster

Player	ESPN Rank​	Year​	MPG​
Caitlin Clark	4​	2020​	34.8​
AJ Ediger	39​	2021​	4​
Kylie Feuerbach	71​	2020​	17.6​
McKenna Warnock	84​	2019​	29.9​
Addison O'Grady	92​	2021​	10​
Tomi Taiwo	n/a​	2018​	16.6​
Kate Martin	n/a​	2018​	29​
Logan Cook	n/a​	2018​	8.9​
Monika Czinano	n/a​	2018​	28.5​
Gabbie Marshall	n/a​	2019​	30.3​
Shateah Wetering	n/a​	2020​	0​
Sharon Goodman	n/a​	2020​	0​
Sydney Affolter	n/a​	2021​	11.9​

 

[bballnut90]

You don’t know what you are talking about. UConn was a team and had very well balanced scoring last year. Paige averaged 20 ppg but CW was right behind her at 16.5 ppg, Ono averaged 12 ppg, and EW averaged 10 ppg IIRC. Iowa or even DePaul doesn’t come close to that kind of scoring spread, both are one player teams and their WL records reflect that, this year or last year.

Do your homework before making such claims:

Iowa last year had:
Clark: 26.6 PPG
Czinano: 19.3 PPG
Warnock: 12.0 PPG
Marshall: 9.1 PPG
Martin: 7.0 PPG

UCONN had:
Bueckers: 20.0 PPG
Williams: 16.3 PPG
ONO: 12.0 PPG
Edwards: 10.7 PPG
Westbrook: 9.4 PPG

 

[sun]

Uh…..so Anna Makurat, Piath Gabriel, Nika Muhl, and Aliyah Edwards were elite prospects wanted by every team in the country? Gabriel wasn’t even in the Espn top 100, and I doubt the others were.

AE was an elite prospect ranked by ESPN at 23 overall and 3rd at her position.

aaliyah-edwards

High School Girls' Basketball Recruiting Aaliyah Edwards

www.espn.com

Even Piath was ranked 23rd at her position and sought after by some top schools, as I believe that all the players mentioned were.

piath-gabriel

High School Girls' Basketball Recruiting Piath Gabriel

www.espn.com

 

[cancontent]

I slighted them? How exactly? I think they are all terrific players, and other than UConn and a handful of other programs, all would start on many many teams throughout the country. Some kids are McDonalds All Americans and some are not, but it doesn’t mean some kids can’t come to a top program and learn from the greatest womens basketball coach in history.

You stated that none of the players listed for your example were wanted by majority of top programs throughout the country. It's an unfair assumption to make when we aren't privy to what when on during the recruiting process.

Edwards chose UConn over programs like Maryland, Louisville, and South Carolina to name a few from some of the unofficial visits she completed. Per ESPN HoopGurlz, Muhl also considered Oregon and Louisville before choosing UConn. Who knows who else were trying to get them to commit to their program?

 

[bballnut90]

Iowa has two injured starters currently. This includes their best perimeter defender (Marshall) and best front court rebounder (Warnock). Both lead the team in 3P% and provide much needed spacing to the offense, preventing opposing defenses from being able to bring a double to Clark or Czinano every time they touch the ball. Additionally, 5 of Iowa's 7 frontcourt players are injured, leaving literally no one to play the PF spot who actually trains that position. So last night Iowa had two 5'11'' guards -- one of whom is a freshman who wasn't in the regular rotation before all these injuries -- playing the corners of a 2-3 zone trying to defend Michigan's stellar post players. Despite that, Iowa still managed to come within 5 points in the final minute of the 4th quarter.

It is so tiresome to read outsider perspectives on what Clark should or shouldn't be doing when a majority of observers probably know next to nothing about the rest of Iowa's roster.

Great post. Drives me nuts how people see an accomplishment by Clark and their immediate instinct is to undermine and discredit her without even watching the game, or taking 5 minutes to research more about Iowa women's basketball. I've followed women's basketball for 25 years and I've never seen a display like Clark had in the 4th quarter yesterday. Appreciate it for what it is and move on if you don't have anything constructive to say.

 

[CONN78SEJ]

Again, this isn't meant to slight UConn. They have really great players. Iowa has some good players too. Both have good players that weren't ranked. But it seems pretty clear to me from the tables below that Iowa needs Clark to do more and that's okay. She's certainly not perfect and can get better, but she's an incredible talent and is great for women's basketball (right along with Paige and Azzi).

UConn's Roster

Player	ESPN Rank​	Year​	Current MPG​
Christyn Williams	1​	2018​	35.1​
Paige Bueckers	1​	2020​	36.2​
Azzi Fudd	1​	2021​	24.4​
Evina Westbrook	2​	2017​	31.3​
Olivia Nelson-Ododa	5​	2018​	29.3​
Caroline Ducharme	5​	2021​	25.5​
Amari Deberry	15​	2021​	7.3​
Aubrey Griffin	21​	2019​	0​
Aaliyah Edwards	23​	2020​	23.2​
Dorka Juhasz	n/a​	2018​	22​
Nika Muhl	n/a​	2020​	21.9​
Piath Gabriel	n/a​	2020​	5.2​

Iowa's Roster

Player	ESPN Rank​	Year​	MPG​
Caitlin Clark	4​	2020​	34.8​
AJ Ediger	39​	2021​	4​
Kylie Feuerbach	71​	2020​	17.6​
McKenna Warnock	84​	2019​	29.9​
Addison O'Grady	92​	2021​	10​
Tomi Taiwo	n/a​	2018​	16.6​
Kate Martin	n/a​	2018​	29​
Logan Cook	n/a​	2018​	8.9​
Monika Czinano	n/a​	2018​	28.5​
Gabbie Marshall	n/a​	2019​	30.3​
Shateah Wetering	n/a​	2020​	0​
Sharon Goodman	n/a​	2020​	0​
Sydney Affolter	n/a​	2021​	11.9​

I don’t know why Iowa doesn’t get more top recruits, Lisa Bluder has been one of the top womens head coaches for many years.

 

[GreatValue]

I don’t know why Iowa doesn’t get more top recruits, Lisa Bluder has been one of the top womens head coaches for many years.

What the heck is there to do in Iowa besides play bball lol . I think student athletes these days are looking for other aspects of a college life besides playing bball. Just my opinion.

 

[CONN78SEJ]

You stated that none of the players listed for your example were wanted by majority of top programs throughout the country.

No, that’s not what I stated. I responded to the original posters post. …..

“Moogs said:
“I would suggest it's a whole lot easier to opine on the value of "team basketball" when basically every player on the roster was an elite prospect and wanted by virtually every program in the country. Which isn't to devalue that. UConn was able to recruit those players and they've earned that. But it isn't exactly an apples to apples comparison either.”

To which I responded…..and asked

“Uh…..so Anna Makurat, Piath Gabriel, Nika Muhl, and Aliyah Edwards were elite prospects wanted by every team in the country?”

I questioned his assertion that the UConn players I cited were wanted by every team in the country.
Then you misquoted me with a ridiculous statement saying I slighted them. Geno has always recruited “diamonds in the rough” along with the many top high school players in the country who have chosen UConn.

 

[mudcat]

Tell you this much....I wouldn't want to be in Michigan's bracket. Pick your poison. They can score at all positions...including the bench. And Phelia...might be the steal of the class.

I really like Phelia too, but she would be a lot less effective if forced left every time.

 

[bballnut90]

No, that’s not what I stated. I responded to the original posters post. …..

“Moogs said:
“I would suggest it's a whole lot easier to opine on the value of "team basketball" when basically every player on the roster was an elite prospect and wanted by virtually every program in the country. Which isn't to devalue that. UConn was able to recruit those players and they've earned that. But it isn't exactly an apples to apples comparison either.”

To which I responded…..and asked

“Uh…..so Anna Makurat, Piath Gabriel, Nika Muhl, and Aliyah Edwards were elite prospects wanted by every team in the country?”

I questioned his assertion that the UConn players I cited were wanted by every team in the country.
Then you misquoted me with a ridiculous statement saying I slighted them. Geno has always recruited “diamonds in the rough” along with the many top high school players in the country who have chosen UConn.

You are correct that not all 15 UCONN players were coveted by all 300+ programs in the country, but I think the you missed the main point that @Moogs was making, which is that UCONN has far and away more talent than Iowa does, so it isn't an apples to apples comparison. (Even though as pointed out above, both teams had similar balance last season despite your claim--worth noting, you chose not to reply to that post.)

Also, you claim Geno has "always recruited diamonds in the rough", who are some of these players you speak of?

 

[CONN78SEJ]

AE was an elite prospect ranked by ESPN at 23 overall and 3rd at her position.

aaliyah-edwards

High School Girls' Basketball Recruiting Aaliyah Edwards

www.espn.com

Even Piath was ranked 23rd at her position and sought after by some top schools, as I believe that all the players mentioned were.

piath-gabriel

High School Girls' Basketball Recruiting Piath Gabriel

www.espn.com

And Piath and AE were wanted by virtually every team in the country?

That’s the part I questioned.

 

[CONN78SEJ]

Do your homework before making such claims:

Iowa last year had:
Clark: 26.6 PPG
Czinano: 19.3 PPG
Warnock: 12.0 PPG
Marshall: 9.1 PPG
Martin: 7.0 PPG

UCONN had:
Bueckers: 20.0 PPG
Williams: 16.3 PPG
ONO: 12.0 PPG
Edwards: 10.7 PPG
Westbrook: 9.4 PPG

Oh yeah? How about this year so far?

 

[bballnut90]

Oh yeah? How about this year so far?

Lmao almost the exact same:

Clark: 27.4 PPG
Czinano: 20.2 PPG
Warnock: 11.7 PPG
Marshall: 7.2 PPG
Martin: 6.7 PPG

Seriously, watch a game or do your homework before making statements that are blatantly inaccurate.

 

[cancontent]

No, that’s not what I stated. I responded to the original posters post. …..

“Moogs said:
“I would suggest it's a whole lot easier to opine on the value of "team basketball" when basically every player on the roster was an elite prospect and wanted by virtually every program in the country. Which isn't to devalue that. UConn was able to recruit those players and they've earned that. But it isn't exactly an apples to apples comparison either.”

To which I responded…..and asked

“Uh…..so Anna Makurat, Piath Gabriel, Nika Muhl, and Aliyah Edwards were elite prospects wanted by every team in the country?”

I questioned his assertion that the UConn players I cited were wanted by every team in the country.
Then you misquoted me with a ridiculous statement saying I slighted them. Geno has always recruited “diamonds in the rough” along with the many top high school players in the country who have chosen UConn.

How is it not possible that more programs, possibly "every" program out there in addition to the examples provided didn't make an attempt to reach out when they could be contacted? These kids get inundated by schools non-stop when the contact period officially opens up, not to mention what they probably sent via mail before they can be contacted. I'm sure a lot of programs attempted to put their hat in the ring in the hopes they could get a chance to be considered.

 

[CONN78SEJ]

You are correct that not all 15 UCONN players were coveted by all 300+ programs in the country, but I think the you missed the main point that @Moogs was making, which is that UCONN has far and away more talent than Iowa does, so it isn't an apples to apples comparison. (Even though as pointed out above, both teams had similar balance last season despite your claim--worth noting, you chose not to reply to that post.)

Also, you claim Geno has "always recruited diamonds in the rough", who are some of these players you speak of?

I actually only checked the scoring balance of Iowa this year vs UConn this year, which no one even touched, including you. I included last year because Clark had a similarly spectacular season last year.

As for “diamonds” in the rough, how about Jessica Moore, Maria Conlin, Kelly Schumacher, Svetlana Abrosimova, or Anna Makurat. Would you call Caroline Ducharme a diamond in rough? She was well known coming out of high school, but I would call her a diamond in the rough for a freshman that no one expected to lead the team.

I didn’t miss his main point, he falsely embellished his post and I called him out on it.

 

[nwhoopfan]

Great post. Drives me nuts how people see an accomplishment by Clark and their immediate instinct is to undermine and discredit her

Some just feel a need to do this with pretty much any player. Heard the same kind of stuff w/ Plum, Ionescu, McDonald, and probably many others.

 

[nwhoopfan]

What the heck is there to do in Iowa besides play bball lol . I think student athletes these days are looking for other aspects of a college life besides playing bball. Just my opinion.

Des Moines has a population over 200,000 according to wiki. There must be something to do there. Storrs clocks in at about 15,000 by comparison.

 

[bballnut90]

I actually only checked the scoring balance of Iowa this year vs UConn this year, which no one even touched, including you. I included last year because Clark had a similarly spectacular season last year.

As for “diamonds” in the rough, how about Jessica Moore, Maria Conlin, Kelly Schumacher, Svetlana Abrosimova, or Anna Makurat. Would you call Caroline Ducharme a diamond in rough? She was well known coming out of high school, but I would call her a diamond in the rough for a freshman that no one expected to lead the team.

I didn’t miss his main point, he falsely embellished his post and I called him out on it.

I didn't talk about UCONN last year because you specifically cited last season, not this season when you said:

"You don’t know what you are talking about. UConn was a team and had very well balanced scoring last year. Paige averaged 20 ppg but CW was right behind her at 16.5 ppg, Ono averaged 12 ppg, and EW averaged 10 ppg IIRC. Iowa or even DePaul doesn’t come close to that kind of scoring spread, both are one player teams and their WL records reflect that, this year or last year."

If you look at Iowa stats this year, you're nuts if you can conclude theyre a 1 man team. They literally have another player who is top 20 in the country in PPG, and a third player in double figures.


And all of those players cited were recruited 20+ years ago. Have any other more current examples? I'll give you Makurat, but she essentially played 1 season and transferred when it was clear she was pushed down on the depth chart. Id also say "diamond" is a generous term too considering her impact. Even if you count her, 1 player in 20 years doesn't validate that claim IMO.

And in no way shape or form can you call a top 5 blue chip recruit a "diamond in the rough." Is she performing better than expected? Absolutely. Is she a "diamond in the rough?" Not at all.

 

[undersized]

I actually only checked the scoring balance of Iowa this year vs UConn this year, which no one even touched, including you. I included last year because Clark had a similarly spectacular season last year.

As for “diamonds” in the rough, how about Jessica Moore, Maria Conlin, Kelly Schumacher, Svetlana Abrosimova, or Anna Makurat. Would you call Caroline Ducharme a diamond in rough? She was well known coming out of high school, but I would call her a diamond in the rough for a freshman that no one expected to lead the team.

I didn’t miss his main point, he falsely embellished his post and I called him out on it.

Only a UConn fan would claim that the #5 recruit in her class qualifies as a diamond in the rough.

 

[TheFarmFan]

Would you call Caroline Ducharme a diamond in rough? She was well known coming out of high school, but I would call her a diamond in the rough for a freshman that no one expected to lead the team.

Only a UConn fan would claim that the #5 recruit in her class qualifies as a diamond in the rough.

HAHA. So true. The only reason no one expected her to lead the team is because that team has the frosh, soph, and senior #1 recruits, the super senior #2 recruit, and a senior #4 recruit. Only in such rarified air can a #5 recruit exceed expectations by occasionally leading the team in scoring.

 

[mudcat]

Des Moines has a population over 200,000 according to wiki. There must be something to do there. Storrs clocks in at about 15,000 by comparison.

U. of IA is located in Iowa City, not Des Moines. Even if you included nearby Coralville, it still would be well under 100,000

 

[nwhoopfan]

U. of IA is located in Iowa City, not Des Moines. Even if you included nearby Coralville, it still would be well under 100,000

Ah crap, I can't believe I did that. Oops.

Well...college kids probably find ways to amuse themselves in towns/cities of every size across the country, no matter where they are.

 

[CONN78SEJ]

I didn't talk about UCONN last year because you specifically cited last season, not this season when you said:

"You don’t know what you are talking about. UConn was a team and had very well balanced scoring last year. Paige averaged 20 ppg but CW was right behind her at 16.5 ppg, Ono averaged 12 ppg, and EW averaged 10 ppg IIRC. Iowa or even DePaul doesn’t come close to that kind of scoring spread, both are one player teams and their WL records reflect that, this year or last year."

If you look at Iowa stats this year, you're nuts if you can conclude theyre a 1 man team. They literally have another player who is top 20 in the country in PPG, and a third player in double figures.


And all of those players cited were recruited 20+ years ago. Have any other more current examples? I'll give you Makurat, but she essentially played 1 season and transferred when it was clear she was pushed down on the depth chart. Id also say "diamond" is a generous term too considering her impact. Even if you count her, 1 player in 20 years doesn't validate that claim IMO.

They are a one man team, that’s why Michigan was easily blowing them out last night, until the 4th quarter when Clark went crazy and scored 25 points in the 4th quarter to narrow the margin of defeat for Iowa. Iowa’s almost as bad as Tennessee but at least they have Clark.

 

[bballnut90]

They are a one man team, that’s why Michigan was easily blowing them out last night, until the 4th quarter when Clark went crazy and scored 25 points in the 4th quarter to narrow the margin of defeat for Iowa. Iowa’s almost as bad as Tennessee but at least they have Clark.

 

[CONN78SEJ]

Hey, good one. She even looks like Pat Summitt.

 

[Fishy]

Watched Clark and was absolutely stunned!!! She's the best shooter I've seen since Pistol Pete Maravich half a century ago. Astonishing!!! Not sure which is the better player- Paige or Clark. Paige has better coaching and probably a better supporting cast. Michigan survived with great free throw shooting down the stretch. But I've never seen anyone in the women's game, either in the pros or in college, do what Caitlin Clark just did. Not even Diana Taurasi.

Seriously.

She shoots 28% from three.

Maybe watch more than a highlight reel.

 

[Bjbod]

My analogy which I think I gave before

1) Caitlin is like an intergalactic Blockbuster movie. Sure to thrill
2) Paige is like a beautifully choreographed and complex ballet. A true pleasure to those who can appreciate it.

Paige cannot and/or would not want to do some of the things Caitlin does like going 3 v 1 into combat and make a large number of contested shots or drive hard into a clogged middle but look for easier answers

The world can hold both types

On the other hand, the question I think is more interesting is how each would fare in the others situation

1) Geno would work hard on getting Caitlin to take the highest percentage shots and with more talent around her, I could see her morph into a paige type player with the same level of success getting all her teammates involved. I do not think Caitlin is a real 'me; player like an Arike but is forced into it by circumstance

2) At Iowa with less talent, Paige would have to be more dominant than she is at UConn but I think Paige would be able to develop better synergy with more players than Caitlin is doing where she and Czinano work the 2 man game. I also think Paige would be the better defender although Caitlin is improving quite a bit in that although the defensive effort is not always there. Perhaps a function of going at the highest speed on offense?

Anyway, just idle personal speculation

The Des Moines Register eNewspaper

This full replica of our printed product provides you the newspaper as you know and love it from the convenience of the web.

desmoinesregister-ia.newsmemory.com

Wow, this link has really blown up. Lots of really good posts, but also a lot of venom...not what I'm used to seeing on this board.

This article (if the link works) came out in yesterday's Des Moines Register. A really thorough insight on her history and what makes her tick.

My kids' high school competed with Caitlin's. We played Dowling Catholic 5 times while she was there, and amazingly we won 4 of those games. I'm embarassed to say I'm a bit of an Iowa girls basketball geek, so I've seen ALOT of games. While Caitlin was a senior I went on record as saying I'd prefer Ashley Joens (now at Iowa State) over Caitlin for a lot of the same perceived reasons she's being dismissed in this thread: not a good teammate, taking too many shots, not winning the big game, etc. In retrospect, my reasons proved to be wrong.

Caitlin's basketball IQ is very high, and has been for a long time. If your ultimate goal is to win a game you want the ball in the hands of the best player most of the time. If you have multiple players that are highly talented, the ball will be spread around more equitably. If not, then the strategy that has the best chance of working may involve one player dominating possessions. Michigan's roster is more talented than Iowa's overall, Iowa was down 2 starters (Michigan was down one as well), but Iowa only had 7 players even dressed to play. They had girls starting against the #6 team in the country that were role players at best. They were getting their butts kicked but had no choice but to keep playing...there were only 2 others on the bench. Clark knew the only chance they had at winning was to shoulder the load herself. This wasn't a selfish decision, it was an objective one.

Her teammates love her, they aren't jealous of or resent her. The display Sunday was newsworthy and highlight reel worthy, but it wasn't self-serving. It was just someone trying her best to win. With a regular lineup and a full bench we never would have been able to witness the craziness we saw Sunday night. Let's just enjoy it and revel in it, not criticize it.

Lots of great posts here on the Boneyard...keep it up!

 

[cockhrnleghrn]

Tell you this much....I wouldn't want to be in Michigan's bracket. Pick your poison. They can score at all positions...including the bench. And Phelia...might be the steal of the class.

They're playing very well. It wouldn't shock me if they ended up a 1 seed since between Louisville and NC State, one will lose again, if not both.

 

[Dillon77]

They are a one man team, that’s why Michigan was easily blowing them out last night, until the 4th quarter when Clark went crazy and scored 25 points in the 4th quarter to narrow the margin of defeat for Iowa. Iowa’s almost as bad as Tennessee but at least they have Clark.

I've joined this thread on the later end, but I've been following both Ms. Clark and Iowa for a number of years (full disclosure: ND lost out on CC at the end of the recruiting process, but I'm still a big admirer of her and Lisa Bluder, her coach).

That said, have you been reading any of the replies @bballnut90 has written? If so, you'd know that your comment about Iowa being a one-man team is not accurate. Maybe you're trying to turn a phrase, but tell that to Monika Czinano, who was only a first-team Big Ten choice last year and is having another respectable performance again this season. Two of Iowa's problems yesterday were not having a few starters and only having 7 players available.

There's been enough written on their roster, but I just wanted to bring up there's another very fine player on that team. Here's her bio for you to peruse...

Monika Czinano - Women's Basketball 2018-19

Monika Czinano - Women's Basketball 2018-19

hawkeyesports.com

 

[my2cents]

Ah crap, I can't believe I did that. Oops.

Well...college kids probably find ways to amuse themselves in towns/cities of every size across the country, no matter where they are.

All they need is a liquor store.