Butler Post Game Thread

[HuskyHawk]

This is some really good stuff from Dan. I go back to the PC game two years ago, the Adama team, and it was the same then. I was pissed about that game because PC was mauling, clutching, grabbing us off the ball. The Big East simply doesn't see fouls against people who don't have the ball as fouls. That's the style of play. It rewards old school ISO 90s basketball. It penalizes modern offense. It makes for fairly ugly basketball.

Reminds me of the shift in hockey in some ways, you never saw interference calls back in the old days, guys were expected to fight through that stuff if they wanted to get the puck.

 

[Excalibur]

I mean he is. But be humbler, Danny cmon.

I remember what I said in the first month of Hurley year one. I'm trying to stick to it, but d@m^ . . .

 

[RuffRuff]

This is some really good stuff from Dan. I go back to the PC game two years ago, the Adama team, and it was the same then. I was pissed about that game because PC was mauling, clutching, grabbing us off the ball. The Big East simply doesn't see fouls against people who don't have the ball as fouls. That's the style of play. It rewards old school ISO 90s basketball. It penalizes modern offense. It makes for fairly ugly basketball.

Reminds me of the shift in hockey in some ways, you never saw interference calls back in the old days, guys were expected to fight through that stuff if they wanted to get the puck.

Really great points and you do wonder how it will be called in March - traditionally have always seem the refs in the tournament let them play.

Like in the NFL, you have to adapt to how rules/refs are working. Danny has a lot of system guys right now, the adaptation offset may be to go grab a couple guys with strong iso skills. Key is having a versatile and balanced roster.

 

[UCTitleTown]

Teams are daring us to take mid-range shots. We need someone who can hit (and isn't scared to take) shots in the paint. We can't be exclusively a 3 or drive team. We don't have great finishers and out shooting from 3 is very inconsistent. We really miss Joey C.

 

[temery]

He said it, he even laughed about it when Borges repeated it in the presser.

'That's a problem. A big problem.

Did he say he was joking?

 

[AllHusky]

It's easy to forget for the first 15 minutes of the game we played some of the best basketball of the season. We went up 15 points. Scored 37, that's a 98 point pace. Our tempo was great. We were blowing them out of the building. We are capable of playing great basketball. We just need to play more of it.

C'mon Pal, stop being reasonable and positive.

This team represents a total rebuild from the 2 Championships. We thought we were going to rebuild around Alex, and that just hasn't been the case, well documented and agreed by most. When a team can play stretches like Pal pointed out above, you know it's in there. It becomes not a matter of can they do it, but will they do it, and for how long? Consistent inconsistency has been the hallmark of this team. It is January 22. Yes the clock is ticking. It's similar to heavyweight crew. If one or two guys are off a little in their stroke rhythm, the boat slows considerably and it looks awful. Get those 2 in sync and the boat just about leaps our of the water.

Hoops is a heck of alot more complicated than crew, and we have a number of players that can't row in the same rhythm as their teammates. So far, it doesn't appear to be abating, but those stretches that Pal referred to exhibit what getting everybody pulling in the same direction looks like. To requote:

We just need to play more of it.

 

[RuffRuff]

C'mon Pal, stop being reasonable and positive.

This team represents a total rebuild from the 2 Championships. We thought we were going to rebuild around Alex, and that just hasn't been the case, well documented and agreed by most. When a team can play stretches like Pal pointed out above, you know it's in there. It becomes not a matter of can they do it, but will they do it, and for how long? Consistent inconsistency has been the hallmark of this team. It is January 22. Yes the clock is ticking. It's similar to heavyweight crew. If one or two guys are off a little in their stroke rhythm, the boat slows considerably and it looks awful. Get those 2 in sync and the boat just about leaps our of the water.

Hoops is a heck of alot more complicated than crew, and we have a number of players that can't row in the same rhythm as their teammates. So far, it doesn't appear to be abating, but those stretches that Pal referred to exhibit what getting everybody pulling in the same direction looks like. To requote:

We just need to play more of it.

Like golf, if you can take those 3-4 amazing holes and stretch it over 18, you just might be on the Tour .

 

[JustbrewitMan]

It's not a good result. But I do think it's a pretty tough matchup for us because we have nobody who can guard Brooks or Telfort. Especially when the refs decide they can use their strength and play as physical as they want without calling reciprocal fouls for holding us or bumping our cutters. Butler played extremely physical defense and we were still in the 1 and 1 in OT. (To pre-empt anybody saying we're a jump shooting team, we scored 10 more points in the paint than they did, took 1 more 3, and got the same amount of offensive rebounds).

One of Newton's underrated attributes the last 2 years was he had a knack for drawing fouls against defenders that were being overly physical. Other teams upped the intensity and pressure, and he'd fall over and they'd get a foul. A few of those a game is worth several points on the scoreline.

What the refs let Telfort (and others) get away with on offense last night makes it nearly impossible to play any kind of effective defense. WWE-style elbowing and bumping to bull his way to the hoop. You're just cooked as a defender because if you bump back with equal force, you'll get whistled. If you try to draw a charge, the refs will ignore it since "don't call many offensive fouls" is one of their general points of emphasis now. So you have to just limit the penetration as much as possible and try to block the shot when off balance because you've been pushed back.

Their P-n-R game was just as maddening. It's tough enough to fight through a good stationary screen, but when the guy setting the pick is also strongly hip-checking you as you try to fight through, it's almost always going to let the dribbler get downhill.

Yes, I know we could have adapted via switching more, but it doesn't remove the fact that it's a foul and not calling it gives a huge advantage to the offense.

 

[upstater]

Hurley needs to live in the moment. Stop talking about going for three straight. Stop talking about being the best coach in the sport. Stop talking about the refs giving respect to the defending back-to-back champs. And stop talking about looking at your championship rings after losses. Focus on getting this very flawed team into the NCAA tournament and in a position where maybe they can make some noise.

This doesn't look like a team that is well coached right now. Do I think Danny is a great coach?

I am in favor of him calling out the refs. He needs to put the attention on the lack of freedom of movement. It's a smart thing to do. This whole team relies on offensive sets and moving the ball. If you're going to make it a dribble-drive game, this team is going to lose.

He's doing the right thing by bringing public attention to all the grabbing going on.

To be clear, I have been making this point since November because there is a big difference this year. There's a point of emphasis which allows grabbing but instead calls fouls for any physicality on dribble drives. At some point, they've had a discussion to tilt the court in one direction, and that direction is against UConn (no, I'm not saying that UConn has been singled out).

 

[Edward Sargent]

It's easy to forget for the first 15 minutes of the game we played some of the best basketball of the season. We went up 15 points. Scored 37, that's a 98 point pace. Our tempo was great. We were blowing them out of the building. We are capable of playing great basketball. We just need to play more of it.

It was the intensity they played with as well, but then it turned to mush the last 4 minutes and we gave it all back

 

[AllHusky]

Like golf, if you can take those 3-4 amazing holes and stretch it over 18, you just might be on the Tour .

Last 2 years we were on the tour every week(game) This year we have to qualify every week for the next tournament.

 

[DogMania]

I watched the off-ball action and the number of clutches, grabs and hits on Solo was unreal. In the big east those are not fouls I guess. Hopefully in a tourney that allows freedom of movement, that helps us.

I noticed that as well and said such in the chat during the game.

With that said, he did a lot of standing around, running some slow motion around some weak screens. Just think it's time...or should have been done a lot sooner...for Hurley and staff to draw up some special sets for his teammates to free him up for a lot more catch and shoot 3s than he's currently getting. Not every time down the floor, since you want his teammates ready to take good shots, but more often than we're seeing. He's just too good a deep and even midrange shooter to not be getting more shots.

 

[AllHusky]

It was the intensity they played with as well, but then it turned to mush the last 4 minutes and we gave it all back

consistent inconsistency

maybe we don't have the guys that can apply themselves for that long. Ability to maintain focus and effort is a talent or skill just like shooting or rebounding

 

[ctbro1999]

consistent inconsistency

maybe we don't have the guys that can apply themselves for that long. Ability to maintain focus and effort is a talent or skill just like shooting or rebounding

All I know for sure is that Diarra can't keep playing 35+ minutes every game and expect to last the rest of the season. He played 40/45 last night. He'll be grinded into the ground come tourney time at that rate.

 

[Waquoit]

Whay can't you guys just root for your team and be happy for an OT win? This thread is why I don't find the "spoiled and entitled" stuff funny. Folks aren't being ironic, they're being spoiled and entitled. Who's not trying to win? Who's not working hard? Who's not playing team ball?

 

[RuffRuff]

All I know for sure is that Diarra can't keep playing 35+ minutes every game and expect to last the rest of the season. He played 40/45 last night. He'll be grinded into the ground come tourney time at that rate.

Always wonder how accurate this is with 23 year old kids in amazing physical condition playing 2 games a week.

 

[JustbrewitMan]

A lot of us have been seduced into this idea with those two titles. Hurley and staff are mortals and not alchemists. The players you have dictate your potential.

Need McNeeley back. He’s not only the best player but he puts the rest of the good players in their more natural role, and keeps bad players from playing. It’s that simple.

This squad without him is not a top 25 team as has been suggested.

But history tells us that Hurley's teams pretty much always get stronger and better as the season goes on. Go back and look at the February records for his 2nd-4th years here at UConn, which were early in the rebuild when our teams were mere shells of the teams we've had the last 2 years (in terms of talent): 8-3, 6-3, 7-4

 

[uconnric]

I think the game was called horribly both ways. Both teams have several plays to complain about.

Seems like Motta was going after the refs all game also but generally he got the net benefit on foul calls.

 

[uconnric]

We were an offensive juggernaut last year, but the defense was also a juggernaut. A 7'2" monster manning the paint, a freshman take-your-best-guy-out defender, a 6'5" worldly point guard, and oh, the smartest grad transfer defender ever. This team with McNeeley can be very good on offense - we've shown that. He adds a 3rd deadeye from 3 and the ability to drive that opens the floor for everyone. But it's the defense that has to improve to compete at the top. Kentucky failed to nail down multiple championships under Cal because, as talented as their offensive recruits every year were - and they were very talented - the defense was always less than the sum of the parts.

It starts with defense. The guys need to get better at cutting off drives, help D, defensive rotations, and boxing and rebounding. Would it help if we trapped more off the screens? Maybe. Right now we show, and try to recover, and the dribbler continues around beating everyone to the hoop.

We couldn't guard Telfort last night. Karaban (who was a teammate of Telfort at New Hampton Prep), couldn't keep him from going to his right and driving in for a layup. That was Butler's offense in the late stages last night.

We've been spoiled. Last year's team would beat this year's team by 15, but that doesn't mean there is no fight in these guys. Karaban took over the game in the last few minutes for us and got some key baskets. Without McNeeley we don't have enough scoring options right now.

 

[RuffRuff]

But history tells us that Hurley's teams pretty much always get stronger and better as the season goes on. Go back and look at the February records for his 2nd-4th years here at UConn, which were early in the rebuild when our teams were mere shells of the teams we've had the last 2 years (in terms of talent): 8-3, 6-3, 7-4

This team should hit its stride when it matters, I hope. Upside by that time is TBD. We should have a really good gauge after Feb 1 as we play our 5 hardest games against teams that exploit our weaknesses with Liam back.

I'd like to think every year has an arc that resembles the historical, but I don't think that is always true as every team has a unique set of personalities and players. This team has unique challenges. At some point DH will have to figure out whether it's worth continuing to develop in season, or scheme adjust.

 

[HuskyHawk]

Really great points and you do wonder how it will be called in March - traditionally have always seem the refs in the tournament let them play.

Like in the NFL, you have to adapt to how rules/refs are working. Danny has a lot of system guys right now, the adaptation offset may be to go grab a couple guys with strong iso skills. Key is having a versatile and balanced roster.

I don't think he's going backward to an ISO offense. I think the takeaway for him will be different if they aren't going to change how they call things. My general thoughts.

1. Screeners need to be intimidating enough to wreck people. Like Clingan and Adama were. Reed could be. But we also screen with other than centers, which leads to #2.
2. Our off ball guys will need to skew towards the physical. Castle, not Ross. Solo should be that but somehow isn't. Cam was strong as hell. Newton was strong. I'm talking dudes who can rip themselves away from the grabs and clutches decisively. Mahaney doesn't have it. Ball doesn't have it. Alex turns it off and on. Liam has it.
3. Teach guys to force the calls or get free. Newton was instinctively good at it. If a guy is grabbing you, spin move, reverse back into him, make it obvious that you're being impeded. There are some football similarities here. Techniques to shed blockers.

 

[Husky Alien]

I’m not saying Diarra is good at the end of the shot clock. But it’s obvious that’s what we trust him to do because he has the ball almost every single time it happens.

I don’t know why we don’t give Solo the ball more at the end of games

I hate to say this but Solo's ball handling skills need to improve. He's better at comming off screens at the end of the game then having the ball in his hands.

 

[freescooter]

What’s game day Conor’s job, thought he was suppose to get the crowd rowdy. Place was a morgue last night, building had 0 energy. Probnaly because its Butler on a Tuesday but come on

Not to mention there were a bunch of empty seats. Not sure what the official attendance was but actual butts in seats were below capacity for sure.

 

[AllHusky]

This team should hit its stride when it matters, I hope. Upside by that time is TBD. We should have a really good gauge after Feb 1 as we play our 5 hardest games against teams that exploit our weaknesses with Liam back.

I'd like to think every year has an arc that resembles the historical, but I don't think that is always true as every team has a unique set of personalities and players. This team has unique challenges. At some point DH will have to figure out whether it's worth continuing to develop in season, or scheme adjust.

I think that arc will be a function of the strength of character of this team. As you point out, a couple of ball games a week shouldn't physically destroy young superbly conditioned athletes. When you read the board after a game like Butler, it is debilitating. The negative energy flows like a river in spring flood stage. You have to ask what is the mental/emotional environment like for the kids.

Usually a team that plays best at end of season has 2 things going for it:
1. Physically they are at their best through a combination of conditioning, strength, in game and practice reps and rest. Injuries are a function of the aforementioned(Thibodeau effect or no) and luck.
2. Emotionally they are built up not beat up. Kids that believe in the Coach, the program and the team are still excited and enthused.
A Coach that year in and year out has his teams playing the best when it means the most, has paid attention to the details of #1 and 2. It is part science, part art.

 

[UCTitleTown]

People... We won. It wasn't pretty. Our flaws were again exposed. But we won. We know what this team is. The staff knows what this team is. We have the ability to look really good. We have the ability to play down to teams and lose our composure.

But man, this thread is a total dumpster fire. We've won back-to-back nattys. And we're criticizing the coaching staff and their ability to coach and develop? We're arguing about an all-american from last year? Constant "we're playing 8 on 5" bs. The refs suck. We get away and have gotten away with ENDLESS bad calls. It goes both ways. It's embarrassing. There are worthy criticisms out there but this (and the chat) just denigrates into some whiny, entitled, we suck narrative. We're 14-5 and ranked. We have more or less stayed the course without our best player. We're going to be an NCAA team who will be a dangerous out.

Remember that thread in the summer about "toxic fanbases" that you all denied?

Butler is now 8-11 and we had to go to OT to eek out a home win that we could have lost on a last shot due to poor execution. I think it's fair to honestly assess that performance. It was trash.