Boy do I miss Pat and .... | The Boneyard

Boy do I miss Pat and ....

HuskylnSC

HuskylnSC

North is a direction; South is a lifestyle
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the old Tennessee. I was just watching some old videos of the rivalry days and I felt once again the excitement and anticipation of those games. Truly for me they made the old cliché real, "The thrill of victory and the agony of defeat." I have more excitement about those games than I do the impending Miss St collision (I hope it's a collision of two teams in a near death struggle for dominance over 40 minutes). WBB was better then for me. I enjoy all the 20-30-40 point wins, but there is nothing like those nail biting games with everything on the line and a worthy opponent.
 
I also miss the rivalry, one that WBB may never see the likes of again. Will there ever be another game that draws almost 30,000 fans as TN-UConn did in 2002 at the FF in San Antonio?
 
I've said for awhile what this program needs is a true sustained rival. We did have Tennessee and yes I miss hating them, then we had ND and I do miss the NA, SD teams and those battles. Baylor was starting something with Griner but could not build off that. Let's face it we got too good and others haven't had near the talent as us.
That could change. A few misses on the trail and a bench that doesn't materialize can slowly turn the tide. I personally would love a rival to develop.
 
Me too. Those were games you could look forward to for weeks in advance. The anticipation builds. TN continues to win. UConn continues to win. Then comes THE day. You know enough to never bet against a Summit-coached team, but UConn ,should win, right? Bird's the difference-maker, right? Pat said so. We've got Taurasi and they don't, right? But they've beaten us before and....

Hold your breath. It's tipoff.
 
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merlin_135748854_fbae1dd6-a43c-441c-9ccf-44908ace70d1-jumbo.jpg
 
Sonny44 said:
It takes great opponents to make truly great teams.
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Totally agree! I remind myself of this as I'm watching the bracket and hoping for upsets so UConn has an easier path. How dumb is that! Just like you said, great opponents define you! Knock on wood (the side of my head), we want SC, ND, and MSU. Classic games this year with these strong squads would put this year's UConn team toward, near, or at the top of the list of great UConn teams.
I think this squad is so able to sacrifice for each other, that we, and I would argue even Geno, takes this squad for granted. I think he keeps expecting this team to lose and they just don't. There's one thing that even Geno can't do himself, and that is make a player better because of the competition with other players. That only comes from the competition. Like when Gabby lifts her game to superstar levels against the best players. Kia's effort against Durr.
Ali can thank Frazier for his place in history, Bird and Magic, Nicklaus and Palmer, Watson. Tyson- no great rival, Larry Holmes- no great rival.
Let's all sit back and enjoy the confrontations. A banner is just a piece of cloth. Great matchups and rivalries are what we remember- the real blood and guts of the combatants.
 
MD#12Fan said:
Totally agree! I remind myself of this as I'm watching the bracket and hoping for upsets so UConn has an easier path. How dumb is that! Just like you said, great opponents define you! Knock on wood (the side of my head), we want SC, ND, and MSU. Classic games this year with these strong squads would put this year's UConn team toward, near, or at the top of the list of great UConn teams.
I think this squad is so able to sacrifice for each other, that we, and I would argue even Geno, takes this squad for granted. I think he keeps expecting this team to lose and they just don't. There's one thing that even Geno can't do himself, and that is make a player better because of the competition with other players. That only comes from the competition. Like when Gabby lifts her game to superstar levels against the best players. Kia's effort against Durr.
Ali can thank Frazier for his place in history, Bird and Magic, Nicklaus and Palmer, Watson. Tyson- no great rival, Larry Holmes- no great rival.
Let's all sit back and enjoy the confrontations. A banner is just a piece of cloth. Great matchups and rivalries are what we remember- the real blood and guts of the combatants.
Expand ...

I want Uconn to Play ND( I was at the game this season it was awesome) and then MSU in a rematch from last year.
 
JustinesGuy said:
I've said for awhile what this program needs is a true sustained rival. We did have Tennessee and yes I miss hating them, then we had ND and I do miss the NA, SD teams and those battles. Baylor was starting something with Griner but could not build off that. Let's face it we got too good and others haven't had near the talent as us.
That could change. A few misses on the trail and a bench that doesn't materialize can slowly turn the tide. I personally would love a rival to develop.
Expand ...
I think you could get your wish if a few more of Justine's Guy's Girls make their way to South Bend. Hypothetically, what if that picture is prophetic and Brunelle / Bueckers / Fudd are all playing under the Golden Dome in a few years? Since we're being hypothetical, let's assume that UConn has Ezi / ONO/ C. Williams / Van Lith, etc. Would that be enough of a rivalry for you, and for WCBB nation? It would certainly make my mouth water.
 
HuskeyinSC said:
the old Tennessee. I was just watching some old videos of the rivalry days and I felt once again the excitement and anticipation of those games. Truly for me they made the old cliché real, "The thrill of victory and the agony of defeat." I have more excitement about those games than I do the impending Miss St collision (I hope it's a collision of two teams in a near death struggle for dominance over 40 minutes). WBB was better then for me. I enjoy all the 20-30-40 point wins, but there is nothing like those nail biting games with everything on the line and a worthy opponent.
Expand ...
Watch what you ask for. Depending on future recruiting classes, we may be in the Tenn role in future. Doubt it, but just saying.
 
.-.
Maybe the "problem" is a good one:
1. greater parity because far more good players spread throughout the college system
2. greater TV exposure heightens the appreciation of other teams
 
I'm not really a fan of rivalries in this sport. I don't feel the need to play the same team every single year or three times every single year. I kind of like being unencumbered and knowing that every season the schedule is a blank slate that Geno can fill in with whomever he wishes. I like when the team gets to play someone new. Keeps things interesting especially getting to see an arena I've never seen before. I guess I don't see playing a team with regularity as interesting or rivalry, just boring.
 
HoopsFan21 said:
I'm not really a fan of rivalries in this sport. I don't feel the need to play the same team every single year or three times every single year. I kind of like being unencumbered and knowing that every season the schedule is a blank slate that Geno can fill in with whomever he wishes. I like when the team gets to play someone new. Keeps things interesting especially getting to see an arena I've never seen before. I guess I don't see playing a team with regularity as interesting or rivalry, just boring.
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I have a feeling Geno likes sticking it to Muffet a bit more than the average coach.
I think the ND/UCONN games are great.
 
.-.
A couple of thoughts - some of which many of you may agree with, other thoughts many of you may not.

First, what makes up a great rivalry? Many components, but generally great hard fought games, players who dislike each other, coaches who dislike each other, and fan bases who dislike each other.
  1. Dee certainly had no love for anything orange. Both teams wanted to beat the tar out of the other team, and I suspect no love lost there (anyone else remember "Boo Randall"?).
  2. Pat accused Geno several times of cheating, and he had no tolerance for that since he did nothing wrong. No love lost there. Add to that - she hated his Philly sarcasm, and he loved to tweak and irritate her Southern facade.
  3. Even now the fan bases dislike each other, and for the most part, dislike the other team.
  4. Most games back in the day were between 2 top 5 teams, often #'s 1 and 2 so they almost always had big implications for the national WCBB landscape
However, even towards the end of her career, Tennessee was falling off. The game had passed Pat by. She was trying to update offensive schemes, famously by canoodling with Harry Paretta to learn motion offense, but still, the Tenn mantra was "get kids with great athleticism, tenacious defense, stale offense, and score off offensive boards and putbacks".

The thing about that strategy is that Pat was WAY more charismatic than Holly and was able to demand and get more out of her players so her teams performed better. After Parker left with the 2 NC's, Pat coached 4 more years, had a total of 26 losses, and the NCAA appearances ended in exits in the 1st round, sweet 16 and a pair of elite 8's. Honestly, no better than Holly has done since then (3 elite 8's, 2 sweet 16's, 2 2nd round).

Pat was a legend, but her team was already falling off and while it's ALL speculation, I suspect her teams would not have fared any better if she were still here and Holly was still the Assoc HC. I'm sure they would be somewhat better, and of course Pat being the legend she is, by sheer force of will would generally get more out of her teams than Holly has gotten. And given that Pat knew she was not great at teaching offense, would have reached out and done way more than Holly has done to fix that (IMHO).

Bottom line is that we have no idea. I'm sure Tenn fans feel that if Pat had not gotten ill, and was still coaching, she would have earned a few NC's in the past 6 years, or at least made final 4's and NC games. I don't think she would have fared much better than Holly has, but the truth probably lies somewhere in between. RIP Pat Summit - she certainly had her flaws, but no one can deny she is a legend and one of the greatest to ever coach the game...
 
EricLA said:
A couple of thoughts - some of which many of you may agree with, other thoughts many of you may not.

First, what makes up a great rivalry? Many components, but generally great hard fought games, players who dislike each other, coaches who dislike each other, and fan bases who dislike each other.
  1. Dee certainly had no love for anything orange. Both teams wanted to beat the tar out of the other team, and I suspect no love lost there (anyone else remember "Boo Randall"?).
  2. Pat accused Geno several times of cheating, and he had no tolerance for that since he did nothing wrong. No love lost there. Add to that - she hated his Philly sarcasm, and he loved to tweak and irritate her Southern facade.
  3. Even now the fan bases dislike each other, and for the most part, dislike the other team.
  4. Most games back in the day were between 2 top 5 teams, often #'s 1 and 2 so they almost always had big implications for the national WCBB landscape
However, even towards the end of her career, Tennessee was falling off. The game had passed Pat by. She was trying to update offensive schemes, famously by canoodling with Harry Paretta to learn motion offense, but still, the Tenn mantra was "get kids with great athleticism, tenacious defense, stale offense, and score off offensive boards and putbacks".

The thing about that strategy is that Pat was WAY more charismatic than Holly and was able to demand and get more out of her players so her teams performed better. After Parker left with the 2 NC's, Pat coached 4 more years, had a total of 26 losses, and the NCAA appearances ended in exits in the 1st round, sweet 16 and a pair of elite 8's. Honestly, no better than Holly has done since then (3 elite 8's, 2 sweet 16's, 2 2nd round).

Pat was a legend, but her team was already falling off and while it's ALL speculation, I suspect her teams would not have fared any better if she were still here and Holly was still the Assoc HC. I'm sure they would be somewhat better, and of course Pat being the legend she is, by sheer force of will would generally get more out of her teams than Holly has gotten. And given that Pat knew she was not great at teaching offense, would have reached out and done way more than Holly has done to fix that (IMHO).

Bottom line is that we have no idea. I'm sure Tenn fans feel that if Pat had not gotten ill, and was still coaching, she would have earned a few NC's in the past 6 years, or at least made final 4's and NC games. I don't think she would have fared much better than Holly has, but the truth probably lies somewhere in between. RIP Pat Summit - she certainly had her flaws, but no one can deny she is a legend and one of the greatest to ever coach the game...
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Nothing to disagree with here
 
JoePgh said:
I think you could get your wish if a few more of Justine's Guy's Girls make their way to South Bend. Hypothetically, what if that picture is prophetic and Brunelle / Bueckers / Fudd are all playing under the Golden Dome in a few years? Since we're being hypothetical, let's assume that UConn has Ezi / ONO/ C. Williams / Van Lith, etc. Would that be enough of a rivalry for you, and for WCBB nation? It would certainly make my mouth water.
Expand ...


Of course I want to win every game but a ND/Uconn rivalry would be great. It would be painful losing BB but if your scenerio pans out it would be fun. Don't forget we still have Geno and the best coaching staff in the country. I would also hope walker develops into a solid player.
Let's see what happens
 
HopJim said:
Watch what you ask for. Depending on future recruiting classes, we may be in the Tenn role in future. Doubt it, but just saying.
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Why? You don't trust what UConn has is real? What proof do you need?
This isn't Tom Brady or Bill Russell or Mickey Mantle or Babe Ruth getting too old and retiring. Geno retools every year.
Are you reading about Christyn Williams?
This could be blasphemous to say at this point of the season (knock on wood) but I could see UConn being more athletic next year. Then 3 key seniors graduate and the program keeps chugging down the track. One thing I'm looking forward to in the future is when Crystal Dangerfield becomes a key performer. That will be crazy fun to watch. And Megan......
 
RockyMTblue2 said:
St. Pat was not and Geno is no cheat. Pat buried the rivalry and that is where it belongs. Cold, dead, eight feet under.
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Like Andy Roddick said after Roger beat him for the umpteenth time in a major, "it takes two to make a rivalry".
The rivalry faded when Tenn faded. Rarely does a rivalry withstand that. Maybe Red Sox-Yankees.
Newsflash: UConn has been doing this for decades. Duh! Such a rivalry requires a second consistently great team. I say ND, Baylor, and MSU are in the conversation. We hate (I didn't say we didn't respect them) all 3 coaches and they are formidable opponents.
Let the games begin!
 
.-.
MD#12Fan said:
Like Andy Roddick said after Roger beat him for the umpteenth time in a major, "it takes two to make a rivalry".
The rivalry faded when Tenn faded. Rarely does a rivalry withstand that. Maybe Red Sox-Yankees.
Newsflash: UConn has been doing this for decades. Duh! Such a rivalry requires a second consistently great team. I say ND, Baylor, and MSU are in the conversation. We hate (I didn't say we didn't respect them) all 3 coaches and they are formidable opponents.
Let the games begin!
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That's a bit strong, no? Do you really hate Muffet, Kim, and Vic?
 
MD#12Fan said:
Why? You don't trust what UConn has is real? What proof do you need?
This isn't Tom Brady or Bill Russell or Mickey Mantle or Babe Ruth getting too old and retiring. Geno retools every year.
Are you reading about Christyn Williams?
This could be blasphemous to say at this point of the season (knock on wood) but I could see UConn being more athletic next year. Then 3 key seniors graduate and the program keeps chugging down the track. One thing I'm looking forward to in the future is when Crystal Dangerfield becomes a key performer. That will be crazy fun to watch. And Megan.
Expand ...


HopJim is making a valid point. I don't think he's saying UCONN is going to be awful I think he's saying nothing lasts forever and its possible we have a few off years. I know we have two players leaving that are trusted, solid players and three more players that are tremendously good or great leaving the following year. So the question becomes do we continue on and keep the 30 plus win seasons going or do we take a step back? You do know all great programs take a step back from time to time. In the mens game, Ucla did, Unlv did, Michigan did, Georgetown did.... In the women's game, Tennessee did, Louisiana Tech did, Stanford did, Baylor did..... It happened there and it will happen here. You make a good point, we will have Danger and she will probably be the best Pg in the country and thats great. Are you so confident in Walker next year or in general? One can make the case that she is not much better today than day one... Do you really want to point to garbage time minutes? The next recruiting class should be solid and we will see. Lets see who signs LOI'S for 19 and 20, that will really tell the tale. Do we hit on BB? MB? Hailey Van Lith? KW? Do we have some key misses to one team? I think its possible, why not? Only time will tell.
 
HoopsFan21 said:
That's a bit strong, no? Do you really hate Muffet, Kim, and Vic?
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Come on, let's not get sappy! Are you new school where everyone hugs and kisses before and after games? Of course you hate your rivals. Watch the NBA at 50 documentary and see how Magic and Bird felt about each other before they did the famous Converse commercial.
Don't take everything so literal!
 
JustinesGuy said:
HopJim is making a valid point. I don't think he's saying UCONN is going to be awful I think he's saying nothing lasts forever and its possible we have a few off years. I know we have two players leaving that are trusted, solid players and three more players that are tremendously good or great leaving the following year. So the question becomes do we continue on and keep the 30 plus win seasons going or do we take a step back? You do know all great programs take a step back from time to time. In the mens game, Ucla did, Unlv did, Michigan did, Georgetown did.... In the women's game, Tennessee did, Louisiana Tech did, Stanford did, Baylor did..... It happened there and it will happen here. You make a good point, we will have Danger and she will probably be the best Pg in the country and thats great. Are you so confident in Walker next year or in general? One can make the case that she is not much better today than day one... Do you really want to point to garbage time minutes? The next recruiting class should be solid and we will see. Lets see who signs LOI'S for 19 and 20, that will really tell the tale. Do we hit on BB? MB? Hailey Van Lith? KW? Do we have some key misses to one team? I think its possible, why not? Only time will tell.
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Great post! Thanks for the response!
Not sure I see any evidence of a drop off. Wasn't last year supposed to be a drop off, after the graduation of the first 3 picks in the WNBA draft, including one of the top 3 Huskies of all-time.
Every team you mentioned had a "short" run compared to UConn, except UCLA. Wooden didn't have a drop off after he starting winning.
All bets are off if Geno leaves. That's different. I'm talking UConn with Geno.
One more point- I bet Geno would actually love a couple of years in which he's not the prohibitive favorite. I bet he would pull a rabbit out of his hat. Maybe like UCLA when they had Wicks and Rowe, after Alcindor and before Walton.
I think the thing that is wearing Geno down are these incredibly high expectations everyone has.
 
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