Borges: Sanogo could see "limited minutes"; AJax calf issue; Diggins unlikely to see the floor
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It’s becoming increasingly apparent on both ends, if Bouknight’s draft timing was better managed, everyone would be better off.
Unfortunately for James he doesn’t get a re-do and if the staff was more proactive about giving him sound advice rather than worrying how that might be perceived - Would it have made a difference?
At any rate, Cole would have been the third offensive option, Polley wouldn’t be going 1-7 from 3pt and we would have been a very special team.
Unfortunately for James he doesn’t get a re-do and if the staff was more proactive about giving him sound advice rather than worrying how that might be perceived - Would it have made a difference?
At any rate, Cole would have been the third offensive option, Polley wouldn’t be going 1-7 from 3pt and we would have been a very special team.
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I think in general we need to temper expectations for players in that 40-70 range that we recruited in this class. There are always going to be some guys that exceed expectations like Bouk or Sanogo, but the reality is most of the recruits in that range that go to top-25 teams aren't getting big minutes. Having 1 in 3 freshman players getting substantial minutes seems about right.
I'm not gonna do it for every position... but these are the minutes for the 25-50 ranked centers in 2021 I compiled a month ago when someone claimed Clingan will get minutes. Team rankings from Torvik.
#29 Enoch Boakye - 12 MPG (#122 ranked team)
#32 Efton Reid - 21 MPG (#10 ranked team)
#33 Charles Bediako - 18 MPG (#11 ranked team)
#47 Jonas Aidoo - 2 MPG (#18 ranked team) (5 games played)
#52 Kaden Perry - 6 MPG (#1 ranked team) (7 games played)
That being said, I do think we should have played the freshman more vs cupcakes. There's no data from practice that outdoes gameday IMO. I want to see them get minutes... but there are a bunch of things more concerning about our team to me than freshman minute allocation.
What frustrates me, and maybe others, is that he doesn't even try something, even briefly...If a player is having a bad game...shooting 1/8, whats the harm in putting in someone else for a few minutes and see if it sparks something. Or try a diff D or diff offensive approach for a few possessions. If it doesn't work go back to the original plan.
Someone said it earlier....being stubborn can be a good or bad thing depending on how it's managed.
Thx...interesting data....could you imagine if Hurley coached Iverson...he'd never play
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I think folks here also have this inflated sense for how impactful freshmen typically are for a team. Outside 5 stars, top 25 territory, the general expectation is minimal impact as a freshman. You will find exceptions, but they are exceptions, not the rule.
Hawkins has been averaging 17 minutes as the #51 recruit in the country according to 247. Let's take a look at the 10 recruits ranked in front of him:
#40 Jonas Aidoo: 2.6 minutes per game, 5 games
#41 Langston Love: 2 minutes per game, 1 game
#42 Kowacie Reeves: 8.8 minutes per game, 6 games
#43 Jalen Warley: 18 minutes per game
#44 Trey Kaufman: Redshirt / ACL tear
#45 Josh Minott: 9 minutes per game, 10 games
#46 Kobe Bufkin: 10 minutes per game, 8 games
#47 Frankie Collins: 13 minutes per game, 9 games
#48 Daron Holmes: 25 minutes per game
#49 Arthur Kaluma: 24 minutes per game
#50 Zach Clemence: 3 minutes per game
So Hawkins minutes are towards the top of the grouping of recruits of similar pedigree so he is getting more exposure than most here. Now let's look at Diggins and Samson getting mostly DNPs appearing in 5 and 7 games and about 8 minutes in games they do appear in game. Both were ranked in in the late 50s (56 and 59 nationally) so let's keep going:
#52 Daeshun Ruffin: played in only 3 games this season due to injury
#53 Jaden Akins: played in every game (11)
#54 Jordan Logino: played in only 6 games, 8 minutes per game
#55 Justice Williams: reclassed to 2022, 0 games played
#57 Kaden Perry: appeared in 7 games, 7 minutes per game
#58 Will McClendon: redshirt, ACL tear
#60 Julian Reese: played in every game, 17 minutes per game
I have bolded those getting the same run as Diggins and Samson. So to summarize the above. Hawkins is ahead of his peers, Johnson is getting about the average burn for a recruit in this area, and Diggins less than average. Sounds about right. As @husky429 said, I think folks here are expecting too much from recruits in the 40-70 range. These players are typically not instant impact, they can be but that isn't the expectation.
Hawkins has been averaging 17 minutes as the #51 recruit in the country according to 247. Let's take a look at the 10 recruits ranked in front of him:
#40 Jonas Aidoo: 2.6 minutes per game, 5 games
#41 Langston Love: 2 minutes per game, 1 game
#42 Kowacie Reeves: 8.8 minutes per game, 6 games
#43 Jalen Warley: 18 minutes per game
#45 Josh Minott: 9 minutes per game, 10 games
#46 Kobe Bufkin: 10 minutes per game, 8 games
#47 Frankie Collins: 13 minutes per game, 9 games
#48 Daron Holmes: 25 minutes per game
#49 Arthur Kaluma: 24 minutes per game
#50 Zach Clemence: 3 minutes per game
So Hawkins minutes are towards the top of the grouping of recruits of similar pedigree so he is getting more exposure than most here. Now let's look at Diggins and Samson getting mostly DNPs appearing in 5 and 7 games and about 8 minutes in games they do appear in game. Both were ranked in in the late 50s (56 and 59 nationally) so let's keep going:
#52 Daeshun Ruffin: played in only 3 games this season due to injury
#53 Jaden Akins: played in every game (11)
#54 Jordan Logino: played in only 6 games, 8 minutes per game
#57 Kaden Perry: appeared in 7 games, 7 minutes per game
#60 Julian Reese: played in every game, 17 minutes per game
I have bolded those getting the same run as Diggins and Samson. So to summarize the above. Hawkins is ahead of his peers, Johnson is getting about the average burn for a recruit in this area, and Diggins less than average. Sounds about right. As @husky429 said, I think folks here are expecting too much from recruits in the 40-70 range. These players are typically not instant impact, they can be but that isn't the expectation.
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From their username, likely slept through class.
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Yeah. High school rankings are pretty damn accurate at least when it comes to talent level. For example, Diggins is a more talented player than Gaffney. He should have already been given a chance. Now it may be too late
BGesus4
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I mean we all saw Johnson in that WV game right? He’s got a ton of potential but it was pretty obvious that playing more minutes over any of the bigs in our rotation is not going to help us win games right now. Hawkins does things that both help us and hurt us. Diggins we don’t have as much insight on but for a team that has been plagued by not being able to hit enough shots, it’s hard to see how he fixes that.
Obviously the more we can give them a chance to develop the better, but if you’re looking for something that could’ve been done to win the games we lost, playing the freshman more is not on the list. If you want to argue playing them more now will help us in March, that could very well be true but realize it’ll be at the expense of performance in the near term.
If you think “it can’t be worse than Gaffney” or “it can’t be worse than Akok” you need to get a grip. It can be a whole lot worse—in terms of bad turnovers, missed assignments, bad fouls, bad box outs, etc. Rewatch the WV game and you’ll see what a very talented freshman who’s not ready to help a team win looks like.
Obviously the more we can give them a chance to develop the better, but if you’re looking for something that could’ve been done to win the games we lost, playing the freshman more is not on the list. If you want to argue playing them more now will help us in March, that could very well be true but realize it’ll be at the expense of performance in the near term.
If you think “it can’t be worse than Gaffney” or “it can’t be worse than Akok” you need to get a grip. It can be a whole lot worse—in terms of bad turnovers, missed assignments, bad fouls, bad box outs, etc. Rewatch the WV game and you’ll see what a very talented freshman who’s not ready to help a team win looks like.
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Hurley seems to do a lot of wishing. Not sure what the wishful thinking is based on though. If you make actual changes, adjustments in scheme or personnel you can justify it. But nothing he stated indicates anything of substance has changed. So we can expect high 50's to mid 60's most nights against decent defensive teams and try to keep them under that? At the very least run some plays to get Whaley more shots and give anybody who can go better than 60% against Auburn then average around 10% against the other 5 decent teams we've played a few of those minutes. Or just keep banging heads against the wall and hope we play better.
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Sounds a lot like HCRE2.0. Basketball is not that complicated a game, the eye test can easily differentiate "wow that's some good stuff" from "what the duckk are they trying to do on offense".
Don't see much difference between current offense and the Gilbert/Vitale offense where those 2 had to constantly bail out the team on offense as no one else could dribble/shoot and others caught the ball past the 3 point line only to pass it back to Gilbert or Vitale.
Cole is the Gilbert and Vitale all rolled up in one guy.
So, starting lineup, what does the offense run the 1st 5 minutes. Unless the defense breaks down AJ, Akok and Whaley are just there to pass the ball back to Cole. Martin is the go to guy?
Of the 7 or so teams UConn played that are more or less equal to UConn name the ones that after the game said "boy I wished we ran an offense as effective as UConn". Not even sure the 5 cupcakes would say that.
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8893
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I watch very little NBA, but I followed the discussion about Bouk and the Hornets here.
It occurs to me that the description of what Borrego was doing there is very similar to what Hurley is doing here, i.e., Borrego was/is playing veterans with greater experience but more limited upside in hopes of making the playoffs, at the expense of developing younger talent with greater potential. He has no designs on actually competing for a championship at this point; he just wants to make the playoffs and he figures that his veterans give him the best chance at that. And apparently, that is consistent with the goals of that franchise.
Likewise, Hurley says he wants to play his upperclassmen even if they are more limited because he would prefer to lose by a few points with their experience than to lose by a lot with mistake-prone freshmen. Hurley is trying to make the NCCAs and get at least a post-season win or two under his belt here; I don't think he has any designs on a winning a championship this season, but he figures that his upperclassmen give him the best chance to win games now. He is much less concerned about developing younger talent with greater potential, unless and until those players are consistently beating the upperclassmen in practice.
Perhaps this was obvious to most, but it was something that occurred to me during the interminable meeting I've been in most of the day. Not saying it's good or bad, but I thought it was an interesting similarity in the dynamic between the two.
It occurs to me that the description of what Borrego was doing there is very similar to what Hurley is doing here, i.e., Borrego was/is playing veterans with greater experience but more limited upside in hopes of making the playoffs, at the expense of developing younger talent with greater potential. He has no designs on actually competing for a championship at this point; he just wants to make the playoffs and he figures that his veterans give him the best chance at that. And apparently, that is consistent with the goals of that franchise.
Likewise, Hurley says he wants to play his upperclassmen even if they are more limited because he would prefer to lose by a few points with their experience than to lose by a lot with mistake-prone freshmen. Hurley is trying to make the NCCAs and get at least a post-season win or two under his belt here; I don't think he has any designs on a winning a championship this season, but he figures that his upperclassmen give him the best chance to win games now. He is much less concerned about developing younger talent with greater potential, unless and until those players are consistently beating the upperclassmen in practice.
Perhaps this was obvious to most, but it was something that occurred to me during the interminable meeting I've been in most of the day. Not saying it's good or bad, but I thought it was an interesting similarity in the dynamic between the two.
CL82
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Of course, you realize Hurleys giving us false choices. In essence he saying I’d rather play my seniors the whole game and lose by a few points rather than play my freshman the whole game and lose by a dozen points. There is a whole world of options in between those two choices that might result in, oh I don’t know winning a game?
BGesus4
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i.e. have a chance at winning vs no chance. Seems pretty straightforward.
dennismenace
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I believe you are correct in what Dan Hurley's goals are and thus justifying his decisions. However, he could have kept the same goals and not risked anything by playing some of the freshman in games against cupcakes and given them more experience and probably the team more March potential by letting them play. The two goals are not mutually exclusive. IMHO that is a risk he took with little upside and a lot of potential downside risk (experience (in case of injuries), discovery of how they can play, confidence, more fresh bodies for wearing down opponents and avoiding frustration with these recruits and potential new ones. Too me it is an unnecessary downside risk and also rewards what are in some cases consistently bad performances by a few marginal upperclassmen.
8893
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I don't put much stock in the particulars of what he says when he's in this defensive mode. I'll look at the bright side and be thankful that at least we're not getting the daily lectures anymore about how bad off the program was before he came and what a great job he has done building it back up.
I took his comments to basically say, "Trust me, if you think these guys are bad, the younger guys are worse, and I have the luxury not to play them now because I don't need to." And the message from many here is, "Shut your traps and trust your coach because you don't know what he's seeing in practice."
So, I'm going to try that. For tonight at least. On the board, if not in the chat. If I stay awake...
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I definitely agree with your point that you can be a huge supporter of Hurley while also criticizing some of his decisions. I just personally think all the people insisting that he play Diggins rn are off-base. Hurley has put freshmen into the rotation before, and the fact that he isn't playing Diggins tells me that Diggins is far off in practice/simply not good enough right now. I would trust Hurley/his coaching experience/what he sees in practice to make that decision
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Woah no need to drag Chuck into this mess. Also Olander was also in that freshman class, so he definitely wouldn't have played. For sure would have seen a lot more Coombs though
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"You win with older guys" is probably not something 5* recruits want to hear.
Waquoit
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The truth?
bendm
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THank you both. I knew Hurley couldn’t be refusing to play guys that were killing it during practice in favor of gaff and polley because he’s overly loyal and/or stubborn. It’s because 2/3 of the freshmen aren’t ready, which is perfectly normal.
It’s hard to imagine digg and Samson being much worse than gaff and polley but if Hurley says our single digit losses would have turned into double digit losses had they played instead well then We have to defer to him.
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That's a sure way to fail in recruiting these days. If you tell the truth, you better have some huge NIL backing. Didn't a recruit coming next year say Dan Hurley told him that he was probably a one and done player? Inconsistent message?
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There are plenty of casual fans but players and especially coaches pull out this gatekeeping stuff far too often, like basketball strategy is an advanced field of knowledge that few "outsiders" could possibly have. It's basketball; it ain't that complicated. I stopped listening to JJ Redick's podcast because he got so bad with the gatekeeping, as if knowing where "the nail" is defensively is a mythic piece of information.
If you've played or coached at a reasonable level and study the game you can know just about everything out there. Sure, you'll never be in the locker room and know exactly what coaches tell the team or what they say their gameplan or scouting report is but it's pretty easy to pick this stuff up by watching the game.
Also, while it's true that we don't know what's going on in practice, to a certain extent that's a dated philosphy: playing time is earned in practice. If a player gets it done when the bright lights are on then they should be on the floor.
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Scary he said “one possession games” would be lost if he played the freshman because they would make too many mistakes. Yet he had the guy who had 5 turnovers and made zero positive plays in the game to try to win it the other day. I think he’s lost at times I really do.
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Dont know what it is but i know what i hope its not. A potential achilles injury.
ClifSpliffy
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hey! i see what u did here. nice. right out of grey's anatomy.
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Yeah i got a good laugh out of that.
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