Bootleg's 2012 Graduation Rate Analysis

[selles]

Uconn Basketball 25%. Ouch. I know that's kids going to the NBA and transferring, but on paper it still looks bad.

http://stanford.scout.com/2/1183346.html

I checked the NCAA website and if I am reading it correctly, these figures are calculated based on kids who entered from 2001-2002 through 2004-2005. So all this is really saying is that we had a problem complying with the NCAA statistical requirements in the middle/late 2000's. No kidding!!! I think we were pretty well aware of that. Also, the Titanic sank and men walked on the moon.

These numbers do not give any indication of whether the new academic initiatives implemented over the past couple years are bearing fruit.

So I guess if you have a thing for masochism or high-horsing this is fun to talk about. But otherwise it's utterly useless. Been there, done that.

 

[HuskyBballFan]

You know what upstater, it may well be true that these numbers aren't great, but they and the APR numbers and pretty much any other numbers you want to run out there show a program that has serious problems. It suggests that UCONN basketball ceased seeing itself as having any relationship with the academic world at all...Guys transfer by the dozens. The guys who stay don't graduate. they don't even fishish that semester's coursework. The academic side of this thing needs to be totally blown up, and to do that I suspect the basketball side does as well. Perhaps it is good tht Calhoun is retirin gwithin the next two years. Bring in someone who takes the academic side at least modestly seriously.

Yes, guys do transfer by the dozens. Jamal Coombs-McDaniel transferred because he wanted more playing time. Oriakhi transferred because he wants to play in the NCAA tournament. Roscoe transferred because he wants to play a different position. Darius Smith, Scottie Harelson and Jamaal Trice transferred because they weren't good enough to play at Uconn. Michael Bradley transferred to be close to his grandmother. Curtis Kelly never got out of Calhoun's doghouse and knew he wouldn't play over Thabeet and Adrien.

Now, what does any of this have to do with academics again?

 

[gandydancer]

I find it difficult to not blame coach for this whole embarrassment. I've felt for several years that he has had recruiting problems, both academically and athletically. I saw it come to a head with the whole Miles fiasco. No matter how you try to spin the numbers, or rationalize the situation, it makes the school look very bad. You can dress a pig up and put lipstick on it, but it's still a pig. I've always been a big fan of coach and felt he should go out on his own terms (preferably after a forth NC) , but I don't fell that way anymore.I think it's time for him to hang it up.

 

[upstater]

I find it difficult to not blame coach for this whole embarrassment. I've felt for several years that he has had recruiting problems, both academically and athletically. I saw it come to a head with the whole Miles fiasco. No matter how you try to spin the numbers, or rationalize the situation, it makes the school look very bad. You can dress a pig up and put lipstick on it, but it's still a pig. I've always been a big fan of coach and felt he should go out on his own terms (preferably after a forth NC) , but I don't fell that way anymore.I think it's time for him to hang it up.

12 mighty posts. Hope the others were as good as this one.

 

[Pmurph678]

Why do we even care about academics? We should meet the minimum standards so we aren't punished but after that who cares? Were basketball fans, I didn't hear anyone cheer when Lamb got an A on his stats test.

If the players cared about their grades, they'd get good grades....it's on them to do well

 

[freescooter]

Why do we even care about academics? We should meet the minimum standards so we aren't punished but after that who cares? Were basketball fans, I didn't hear anyone cheer when Lamb got an A on his stats test.

If the players cared about their grades, they'd get good grades....it's on them to do well

Phil and upstater,

here's the problem...UCONN hasn't met minimum standards, and upstater says they are bogus so we really shouldn't be concerned about them...by the way, have you looked at the federal grad rate which you like better? single digits...Even using the allegedly bogus NCAA GSR, we are embaressingly low. with the Federal rate, UCONN basketball isn't in any way associated with a university. it is just an NBA d-league team without the payroll...

 

[upstater]

Phil and upstater,

here's the problem...UCONN hasn't met minimum standards, and upstater says they are bogus so we really shouldn't be concerned about them...by the way, have you looked at the federal grad rate which you like better? single digits...Even using the allegedly bogus NCAA GSR, we are embaressingly low. with the Federal rate, UCONN basketball isn't in any way associated with a university. it is just an NBA d-league team without the payroll...

Back in the early 2000s, UConn wasn't graduating its players, but for heaven's sake, is it too much to ask for a proper statistical comparison?

45% of BCS bball players transfer. We just saw this stat. This means something. It's probably even more relevant for the big schools that have more transfers. But that GSR stat excludes so many possibilities that you can go 1 for 1 on grads and achieve 100%!! You're going to compare that 1/1 to a school that goes 1/4? Why would you compare that at all? Both schools only graduated one player, but you're telling me one school is at 100% and the other at 25%? Unreal.

And we just saw someone list 7 or 8 UConn players that did graduate in the last few years. So what are we going on about? And what do you do about Roscoe Smith, Alex Oriakhi, Andre Drummond and Michael Bradley leaving? You tell me what you would do. Those players are going to count ZERO for 4 on Calhoun's Federal rate. 0% on those 4 players.

As for your point about the D-league, what is Kentucky? So many were lauding them for their GSR and APRs this past year. Are they not a D-league team? Let's be serious here.

 

[baggerbob]

I would be willing to bet if someone in the SEC were to fall below the APR, the NCAA would void the APR for that year. The reason is the fear of the big conferences breaking away, and taking the cash cow, which is the NCAA basketball tourney. They chose Uconn because the Big East is not a power broker in the NCAA.

 

[upstater]

I would be willing to bet if someone in the SEC were to fall below the APR, the NCAA would void the APR for that year. The reason is the fear of the big conferences breaking away, and taking the cash cow, which is the NCAA basketball tourney. They chose Uconn because the Big East is not a power broker in the NCAA.

Arkansas has gotten lower APR scores than any other BCS school since they've been keeping score. It has always had scores well below UConn's. Suddenly, Arkansas's players are Phi Beta Kappa.

 

[Huskymaniac]

Just make bogus classes like Kentucky has.

 

[sledog]

What is GSR??????

 

[uconndoit]

Ironically, all these academically-averse basketball players coming to UConn - who also bring us final fours and championships - have raised the profile of the university resulting in higher-quality academic applicants. IOW, the school has higher academic standards these days thanks to the success of men's basketball, which would not happened with higher academic standards for the players.

 

[Chief00]

Out of the last 28 players who have come to UConn out of high school, 8 have stayed for 4 years. Think about that.

And the percentage of 4 year guys after the next few years will be even lower with the exodus after last year.

Rashad Anderson, Denham Brown, Hilton Armstrong, Jeff Adrien, Craig Austrie, Jerome Dyson, Gavin Edwards, Donnell Beverly. That's the list. That's it. And what, 6 of those players graduated?

I didn't include Mandeldove because who knows what happened there.

This is a problem - no sugar coating this. Last season Calhoun could not run guys off the team who seldom played . This year some good kids wanted to leave - Alex, Roscoe and Bradley. Last season was way too much about Calhoun - his suspension, his medical issues, the Boatright/NCAA situation which was in truth about the NCAA unsuccessfully trying to trace a money trail back to Calhoun......and then Jimmy giving the keys to George and the bad game and off court consequences which resulted. George couldn't hold the team together and then guys just split.

Having said that both Bazz and AD loved Calhoun and if Herbst did her job and avoided the post season ban - AD would have been back.

 

[upstater]

What is GSR??????

Graduate Success Rate. How many of your players graduate who don't transfer or go pro?

 

[Waquoit]

GSR can put you in jail. Happens all the time on CSI.

 

[Gurleyman]

We've never played the academic "game" right. You redshirt a couple guys along the way (giving them an extra year) and find a towel waver or two to ride the pine and get a degree and then you have more than enough cover for the guys who do just enough to stay eligible and go pro. Replace Chad Wise and Darius Smith and Rob Garrison and Ben Eaves with Connecticut guys happy to wave a towel for State U and get a degree and our GSR doubles, since we're talking such a small sample size.

Our top players/recruits have also been consistently good students along the way - Ray, Rip, Khalid, Ricky, Taliek, Emeka, Ben, Rudy, Thabeet, Dyson, Kemba, Oriakhi. None had issues with qualifying or went to dIploma mills or were close to ineligible in college or made you cringe when they spoke publicly. Maybe Caron had issues qualifying, but I'd be surprised if he didn't work hard in the classroom given his background. Also not sure about Blair Academy where Charlie V went, but Luol Deng went there and got into Duke, so it can't be that bad.

I recall five guys with qualifying/Clearinghouse issues - Saunders, Mouring, Souley, Deng and Nate Miles. Two of them graduated (Ed graduated with two degrees, Souley got his fourth year back after he graduated), one graduated from Fairfield, one dropped out after his senior season ended (Albie) and we'll never know about the last.

To the person who asked about AJ, he was only in school six semesters, since he took a medical leave one year and was suspended from school the next. Stanley also was only in school seven semesters (and left one in the middle for a personal leave). Both guys are GSR/APR hits, but without the medical issues, they might have been fine. Rashad also likely fell behind when he was hospitalized for weeks with a staph infection and almost died.

 

[Mr.Phat]

Hard to have good graduation rate when you have no seniors on the team except walk ons

I hope what you're saying here is that it is disgraceful UConn players are not committed to becoming seniors and graduating. You can't possibly be saying that somehow a 25% rate is somehow OK because most players never get to their senior years. Well, there is a reason why they don't get to their senior years. NOT that they are going into the NBA which accounts for a handful of players. But rather, the basketball program has a *y culture engendered by our head coach in which academic achievement is laughed at.

Believe it or not guys, in this BIG time basketball program called UConn the players get something called scholarships. Which means they actually go to school, learn something and have the chance to graduate with a degree if their NBA careers don't pan out. Calhoun should be telling them that a degree is that much more important because he knows full well most of his players won't be playing in the NBA. A degree is that much more important.

JC can't go to class for his players but the program can encourage a culture of academic achievement - that it is something AS IMPORTANT AS PLAYING BASKETBALL.

This will prove to be the worst part of Calhoun's legacy as coach, nothing else comes close. And it is all happening at the end of his career and not at the beginning.

Who wants to take bets that the next hoop coach will have academic progress metrics in his contract. *ty academic performance like we are witnessing today will not be tolerated or the coach will be given the door with no exit money. This will be the case if Herbst has the focus and commitment I believe she does.

For one prospective coaching candidate this isn't an issue. Brad Stevens' program at Butler has a PERFECT 1.000 APR. Sounds like the perfect fit for UConn.

 

[hoopsknowitall]

Having said that both Bazz and AD loved Calhoun and if Herbst did her job and avoided the post season ban - AD would have been back.[/quote]

Chief the problem was hardly Herbst's fault. She got handed this whole steaming mess coming in the door.

 

[upstater]

I hope what you're saying here is that it is disgraceful UConn players are not committed to becoming seniors and graduating. You can't possibly be saying that somehow a 25% rate is somehow OK because most players never get to their senior years. Well, there is a reason why they don't get to their senior years. NOT that they are going into the NBA which accounts for a handful of players. But rather, the basketball program has a *y culture engendered by our head coach in which academic achievement is laughed at.

Believe it or not guys, in this BIG time basketball program called UConn the players get something called scholarships. Which means they actually go to school, learn something and have the chance to graduate with a degree if their NBA careers don't pan out. Calhoun should be telling them that a degree is that much more important because he knows full well most of his players won't be playing in the NBA. A degree is that much more important.

JC can't go to class for his players but the program can encourage a culture of academic achievement - that it is something AS IMPORTANT AS PLAYING BASKETBALL.

This will prove to be the worst part of Calhoun's legacy as coach, nothing else comes close. And it is all happening at the end of his career and not at the beginning.

Who wants to take bets that the next hoop coach will have academic progress metrics in his contract. *ty academic performance like we are witnessing today will not be tolerated or the coach will be given the door with no exit money. This will be the case if Herbst has the focus and commitment I believe she does.

For one prospective coaching candidate this isn't an issue. Brad Stevens' program at Butler has a PERFECT 1.000 APR. Sounds like the perfect fit for UConn.

A huge steaming pile of BS in this post.

 

[cohenzone]

The real discussion ought to be, IMHO, whether or not the main goal of a university basketball program should be an early exit feeder system to the pros. When Calipari last year said on draft night that it was a great night for the U of Kentucky, I cringed. It was a great night for the kids who went pro. So hooray, this year they won the NC and get to have another minor league franchise next year. It's giving up the ghost entirely from my point of view to say big whoop for schools who don't value winning championships if it means kids stay in school through graduation, as if sports championships is what our university was put on earth for. Don't misunderstand me, because I have a tape of every blessed championship game and semi-final UConn has been in, including the NIT victory.

Even if the graduation stats shown are not realistically what they appear to be put out there to portray, it is not a completely bogus question to ask why UConn has so few kids stick with the school through graduation. Obviously, the one thing this stat does show is that a lot of programs don't have the kind of turnover we do, not even close. If some of the folks here who are primarily focused on winning or, if not that, pointing out the silliness of these stats or even questionable motivation of the enforcing authorities, it seems to me it would be at least worth a dispassionate look at why UConn sticks out like a sore thumb. Maybe every defensive explanation of UConn's men's hoops educational relevance holds water and the picture the bare stats purport to show aren't worth the dried ink on the page. But if all the program is, is an off the book appendage to the university, maybe it isn't worth celebrating and time for the program to head in a different direction.

 

[upstater]

Obviously, the one thing this stat does show is that a lot of programs don't have the kind of turnover we do, not even close. If some of the folks here who are primarily focused on winning or, if not that, pointing out the silliness of these stats or even questionable motivation of the enforcing authorities, it seems to me it would be at least worth a dispassionate look at why UConn sticks out like a sore thumb.

How many times do I have to point out why this is wrong?

Let me say this again: if you have 13 scholarship kids, and only 1 of them graduates, your score can still be 100%. The stat doesn't count transfers or kids leaving for pro contracts. You can go 1 for 1 = 100%

If you have 13 scholarship kids, and only 1 graduates, you can score a 25%, if you only had 9 transfers and pro contract departures. You went 1 for 4 = 25%.

Given the ridiculous nature of this statistic, you're asking why one school sticks out?

If you look at the FSR rates (federal rates) all these schools are in the 25-35% range, and none of them stick out. You say schools don't have much turnover as UConn, and yet the national average for transfers is 45% (which includes all 400 D1 schools, even Davidson!).

OK, so why do schools score 100% and UConn doesn't? If you've been reading Jay Bilas and even take half a blind look at the story on UNC athletics-academics, you know why this happens.

To say I'm putting athletics ahead of academics in making this argument is to miss the entire point of what I've been saying.

 

[Danzz]

Hard to have good graduation rate when you have no seniors on the team except walk ons

I don't care how you manipulate the numbers, our graduation rate sucks and has for some time. Uconn took too long to make changes in the system and recruiting.
Retroactive punishment isn't fair but nobody can deny that our record was horrible.

 

[cohenzone]

How many times do I have to point out why this is wrong?

Let me say this again: if you have 13 scholarship kids, and only 1 of them graduates, your score can still be 100%. The stat doesn't count transfers or kids leaving for pro contracts. You can go 1 for 1 = 100%

If you have 13 scholarship kids, and only 1 graduates, you can score a 25%, if you only had 9 transfers and pro contract departures. You went 1 for 4 = 25%.

Given the ridiculous nature of this statistic, you're asking why one school sticks out?

If you look at the FSR rates (federal rates) all these schools are in the 25-35% range, and none of them stick out. You say schools don't have much turnover as UConn, and yet the national average for transfers is 45% (which includes all 400 D1 schools, even Davidson!).

OK, so why do schools score 100% and UConn doesn't? If you've been reading Jay Bilas and even take half a blind look at the story on UNC athletics-academics, you know why this happens.

To say I'm putting athletics ahead of academics in making this argument is to miss the entire point of what I've been saying.

I know what you are saying and you are missing what am saying. You aren't the poster who commented that we are about winning championships as if that is a good reason for excusing academic issues or to put down other programs because they can't get the early NBA exiters. For reasons not controlled by the universities, basketball players who are pro ready are pretty much forced into college for at least a year. However, it is also undeniably true that universities take in kids who do not meet the usual standards for admission if they can windmill dunk from a standing start at 40 feet from a hoop. Obviously, UConn is far from alone on that score. The going pro early business is a whole separate topic, or should be.

I am not defending the value of this report. If one is going to measure graduation rate by who actually gets a degree at the end of a 4-5 year stay,I believe the way to look at a school is to see if there is any real difference between the rate for athletes and the rate for the school as a whole. In the case of men's hoops, and to the extent relevant, football, I would not count kids who depart early for the pros. I'm not sure what happens to UConn's rate if those kids are eliminated. A program with 100% rate, if that is way out of whack for the norm for a school, raises questions every bit as much as does a low rate. How kids are kept in good standing for the years needed to get a degree is what is really worthy of review if the powers that be want to stop dicking around the issue. The phoniness of all of this is that schools with great academic stats for athletes are not necessarily doing a great job of providing a college education compared to schools with worse stats. I don't want UConn to have "special" majors for athletes but totally think that special support is appropriate given the time demanded of these kids,often for most of the academic year. They owe something back as well in exchange for a free education. However, regardless of the national issues on this point, UConn is the school I'm interested in. It's hard to say that UConn has been a shining example of the right way to do things even if this sort of report presents misleading stats (and even if the APR system is poorly conceived). Something got out of whack at UConn , and is apparently being addressed now. I hope in a way that reflects real academics and not just a way to make sure kids are just being floated through.

 

[upstater]

I don't care how you manipulate the numbers, our graduation rate sucks and has for some time. Uconn took too long to make changes in the system and recruiting.
Retroactive punishment isn't fair but nobody can deny that our record was horrible.

What changes in the system do you want? Should we adopt UNC's changes? Or Kentucky's? That would satisfy you?

 

[upstater]

I hope in a way that reflects real academics and not just a way to make sure kids are just being floated through.

Did you read Herbst's application for the waiver to the NCAA? She lists the measures UConn is taking. Let's just say that UConn will very likely not be in trouble with the APR ever again. And that would be a huge concern for me. The near impossibility of failure should be a huge concern.