Boise withdraws from MWC

[whaler11]

What the hell could have happened. Everyone knew the BCS was dead already - were they going to find a way to keep them out of a structure that doesn't exist going forward?

 

[UConnDan97]

There is enough overlap. The Big East's recent leadership gets slaughtered on this board.

It certainly wasn't great but there has never been a single strategy posted that was realistic that would have made a difference. Recruit Kansas and the other Big XII leftovers? Funny.

The criticism isn't even consistent. Complain that the Big East has ignored football but then defend the addition of Memphis.

Providence gets killed here with 20-20 vision in the rear view mirror. The additions of Temple and Memphis are idiotic but it's waved away with the premise that some expert told them to add those horrific schools and programs.

On what Fecunditying planet would an expert claim that adding Memphis to a huge league would raise the per team television rake.

There was no a single strand of thought or logic in adding Temple and Memphis. Temple fills out a schedule and Memphis shut Pitino up for a few months. If anyone wants to pretend that some television visionary convinced the league that they are more valuable with two of the least valuable football programs in college football history - it's absurd on every level.

Well I just have a couple of follow up points, then:

1) I'M someone who believes that the moves they made were absolutely predicated on television contract projections. Again, if that isn't at least a reasonable assumption (as opposed to your "absurd on every level"), then why would the Big East promise millions in aid to Villanova in order to do it?

2) As for the overlap of people defending the Temple / Memphis additions and also slaughtered the Big East leadership in the past, can you at least provide me with an example of a Boneyarder that has done both? It certainly wasn't me...

 

[whaler11]

Well I just have a couple of follow up points, then:

1) I'M someone who believes that the moves they made were absolutely predicated on television contract projections. Again, if that isn't at least a reasonable assumption (as opposed to your "absurd on every level"), then why would the Big East promise millions in aid to Villanova in order to do it?

2) As for the overlap of people defending the Temple / Memphis additions and also slaughtered the Big East leadership in the past, can you at least provide me with an example of a Boneyarder that has done both? It certainly wasn't me...

1. Ok I guess. It seems completely absurd to me at first blush and when you consider the evidence. If they were such valuable properties why didn't Temple get an invite until after it was clear Boise couldn't fill out the 2012 schedule? Why weren't they part of the original schedule. What the hell has changed since 2003 for Temple?

If Memphis was so valuable why are they 13? I imagine that you'll admit that 13 is an awfully stupid number for a league. And if the plan is for a number higher than 13 why were they added before 14 or 15 or 16, instead of with other new schools.


2. Not really a midnight project but I'll find some soon.

 

[UConnDan97]

Compared to what? When Temple lost 70 out of 80 games in the Big East last time? When Memphis went like 3-30 the past few years.

Sure you can't get worse so upticks.

For all the glowing reports of Temple'sThe next year, when he was 25, he returned to Czarnków, Poland, for a family visit. There he met a 19-year-old named Barbara, a “naive, simple, gentle” woman, he says, the daughter of a blacksmith who had rented rooms from one of Wojnowski’s aunts. On a walk together down a hillside, he reached out to squeeze her hand. He had never had a girlfriend, and he describes his attraction as equal parts impulsive and desperate. He married her in a Catholic church two days before his monthlong stay was up. The next year, she joined him in an apartment he’d found in Mount Rainier in Prince George’s County.

rebirth. Here is the number of wins they have over MAC teams who ended the season with winning records since they joined the league: 0

2009: 9-4 (Bowl loss to UCLA)
2010: 8-4
2011: 9-4 (Bowl win against Wyoming)

Yeah, that's the definition of an uptick, especially since you point out that they lost 70 out of 80 games in the Big East before they were kicked out.

I understand that you don't like the move, Whaler, but man, sometimes your speakers go to 11, you know what I mean?

 

[nelsonmuntz]

i kind of get Temple. Memphis is a mystery to me.

 

[UConnDan97]

1. Ok I guess. It seems completely absurd to me at first blush and when you consider the evidence. If they were such valuable properties why didn't Temple get an invite until after it was clear Boise couldn't fill out the 2012 schedule? Why weren't they part of the original schedule. What the hell has changed since 2003 for Temple?

What part of my earlier post, where I said that it took a catastrophic situation for Villanova to finally cave in (that, and the millions of dollars), did you not agree with or understand?? THAT'S why they weren't invited until the 11th hour! Simple as that. We had an internal ACC-BC-UConn thing going on, and many knew about it. No big mystery there...

 

[whaler11]

2009: 9-4 (Bowl loss to UCLA)
2010: 8-4
2011: 9-4 (Bowl win against Wyoming)

Yeah, that's the definition of an uptick, especially since you point out that they lost 70 out of 80 games in the Big East before they were kicked out.

I understand that you don't like the move, Whaler, but man, sometimes your speakers go to 11, you know what I mean?

Wins over MAC teams with winning records. None. Do you not realize how bad that frigging league is?

Note they are such an afterthought they won 8 games and didn't get a bowl bid. That happens all the time.....

 

[whaler11]

What part of my earlier post, where I said that it took a catastrophic situation for Villanova to finally cave in (that, and the millions of dollars), did you not agree with or understand?? THAT'S why they weren't invited until the 11th hour! Simple as that. We had an internal ACC-BC-UConn thing going on, and many knew about it. No big mystery there...

Oh you think that the other Big East schools saw value in Temple but Villanova stood in their way? I guess that could be true but that only makes me want to thank Villanova.

You do see that no one felt the need to buy Nova off until they needed a team that was available though right? Why would Villanova give a damn about the league's football schedules? Why would they allow Temple to creep into their basketball territory for a few million research something they don't want to do?

 

[UConnDan97]

Wins over MAC teams with winning records. None. Do you not realize how bad that frigging league is?

Note they are such an afterthought they won 8 games and didn't get a bowl bid. That happens all the time.....

Actually, it's happened to us! Settle down, dude. Did you forget about 2003 when we went 9-3 (after pasting WF), and we didn't have a bowl game either??

 

[whaler11]

Actually, it's happened to us! Settle down, dude. Did you forget about 2003 when we went 9-3 (after pasting WF), and we didn't have a bowl game either??

Funny I was going to say it probably hasn't happened since then but it's a bit different for an independent at a time when there were fewer bowls.

 

[UConnDan97]

You do see that no one felt the need to buy Nova off until they needed a team that was available though right?

You have to start to look at the facts, and then you will have the answers to all of your questions:

Feb. 15 - West Virginia settles with BE and will leave Big East
Mar. 7 - Temple is announced as a new member to the Big East, after a deal is struck with them and Villanova

http://espn.go.com/college-sports/s...-join-big-12-july-big-east-lawsuit-settlement

That is the catastrophic change that I am talking about. The Big East essentially tells Villanova "this must be done to save the conference" and Nova says, "so long as you throw me some money."

 

[UConnDan97]

Funny I was going to say it probably hasn't happened since then but it's a bit different for an independent at a time when there were fewer bowls.

Yeah, that's why, because there were fewer bowls.

 

[whaler11]

Yeah, that's why, because there were fewer bowls.

Well there were. I believe in 2010 when Temple stayed home they were the only bowl eligible team who didn't find a game. My memory might be failing me but I believe that is the case.

 

[whaler11]

You have to start to look at the facts, and then you will have the answers to all of your questions:

Feb. 15 - West Virginia settles with BE and will leave Big East
Mar. 7 - Temple is announced as a new member to the Big East, after a deal is struck with them and Villanova

http://espn.go.com/college-sports/s...-join-big-12-july-big-east-lawsuit-settlement

That is the catastrophic change that I am talking about. The Big East essentially tells Villanova "this must be done to save the conference" and Nova says, "so long as you throw me some money."

Doesn't that mean you agree? That they added Temple to fill the schedule?

 

[UConnDan97]

Well there were. I believe in 2010 when Temple stayed home they were the only bowl eligible team who didn't find a game. My memory might be failing me but I believe that is the case.

Well then do me a favor and tell me how many 9-win teams in 1-A have been left out of a bowl and then I will say "mea culpa." The problem is not that there were not enough bowls. The problem is that the bowls didn't think much of us and they didn't think much of Temple in regards to whether we were going to be able to sell more than 5 tickets. The International Bowl changed that perception for us. I expect that Temple's bowl game against WYO is going to change that image for them too.

 

[UConnDan97]

Doesn't that mean you agree? That they added Temple to fill the schedule?

Oh dear help me. I have said in about 6 posts in this thread already that the Big East would not have agreed to pay Villanova millions of dollars if they did not believe that Temple was worth it! THEY WOULD HAVE GRABBED SOMEONE ELSE OR NOONE AT ALL!! Do you get that?? The catastrophic event that I keep referring to is what finally made VILLANOVA AGREE, NOT THE BIG EAST!

 

[whaler11]

By the way bowl games by year


2003: 28
2011: 35


Do you think UConn's 2003 team would have been passed up by another 14 teams? So maybe the number of bowls mattered?

 

[UConnDan97]

By the way bowl games by year


2003: 28
2011: 35


Do you think UConn's 2003 team would have been passed up by another 14 teams? So maybe the number of bowls mattered?

Again, show me another 9-win team that didn't make one when there were 28 bowls, and I told you that I would concede the point. I'm guessing you will have great difficulty finding one...

 

[whaler11]

Oh dear help me. I have said in about 6 posts in this thread already that the Big East would not have agreed to pay Villanova millions of dollars if they did not believe that Temple was worth it! THEY WOULD HAVE GRABBED SOMEONE ELSE OR NOONE AT ALL!! Do you get that?? The catastrophic event that I keep referring to is what finally made VILLANOVA AGREE, NOT THE BIG EAST!

Ok well thats our disagreement. I don't think the Big East gave a damn about Temple because they didn't make that move until it was clear Boise couldn't jump early. I believe they took Temple to fill out the schedule in 2012.

You can believe that Villanova took the high road. I believe they couldn't block it and they got a few million to keep their fans quiet as it was earmarked to research and upgrade their fans want but the school doesn't.

 

[whaler11]

Again, show me another 9-win team that didn't make one when there were 28 bowls, and I told you that I would concede the point. I'm guessing you will have great difficulty finding one...

That is because there weren't any independents that won 9 games that aren't Navy or Notre Dame.

Are you going to argue that an independent 9 win UConn team would have been left out in 2010 or 2011? Do you not see a difference between 56 and 70 bowl teams? The frigging bowls went and got a waiver for a 6-7 team this year. Most seasons now there are
scenarios the last week where not enough teams qualify. That doesn't happen with 56 teams.

 

[UConnDan97]

Ok well thats our disagreement. I don't think the Big East gave a damn about Temple because they didn't make that move until it was clear Boise couldn't jump early. I believe they took Temple to fill out the schedule in 2012.

You can believe that Villanova took the high road. I believe they couldn't block it and they got a few million to keep their fans quiet as it was earmarked to research and upgrade their fans want but the school doesn't.

And that's fine if we disagree. I'll just add that I don't think that taking a bribe constitutes "taking the high road" and it was public knowledge prior to that moment that Villanova was blocking Temple. Another part of the deal was that Nova would get to share the Linc if they decide to go 1-A. There was a lot of bribery, so it does not appear to be a simple case of the BE saying, "Hey Nova, thanks for being so great about the whole thing!"

 

[UConnDan97]

That is because there weren't any independents that won 9 games that aren't Navy or Notre Dame.

Are you going to argue that an independent 9 win UConn team would have been left out in 2010 or 2011? Do you not see a difference between 56 and 70 bowl teams? The frigging bowls went and got a waiver for a 6-7 team this year. Most seasons now there are
scenarios the last week where not enough teams qualify. That doesn't happen with 56 teams.

Here are the minor conference teams that were in front of UConn that year (ironically, Memphis is one):

Memphis (8-4)
No. Texas (9-3)
New Mex (8-4)
Navy (8-4)
Fres St (8-5)
Colo St (7-5)
Tulsa (8-4)

So it wasn't just a matter of not having enough bowls, if a 7-5 "non-BCS team" is getting in before UConn. I remember the Hartford Courant uproar when it happened, because everyone assumed we were in (especially after drubbing WF). It was a gigantic snub, and I'm not willing to revise history to match your take on it.

 

[UConnDan97]

Just so everyone doesn't think that I am completely full of $#it, recall that WVU left the Big East in February of this year. Now, I want you all to see these reports of Villanova blocking Temple's entrance into the Big East dating all the way back to October of last year!!

http://www.thenovablog.com/2011/10/...nsion-villanova-wildcats-temple-owls-football

http://articles.philly.com/2011-10-15/sports/30283649_1_temple-fans-villanova-big-east-football

http://www.the700level.com/ncaa/news/villanova-blocking-temple-from-full-big-?blockID=576760

http://www.csnphilly.com/sportsnetP...va-blocking-temple-s-bid-for-the-big-east.htm

http://sports.yahoo.com/top/news?slug=ycn-10223365

How were arguments won before the advent of Google?? It's amazingly easy nowadays to recall info in order to drive home a point. I just wish I didn't have to...

 

[lv99]

Regardless of the circumstances of Temple's entry into the Big East, now that we're comfortable because Boise State is on board, we need to kick Temple out again. That will show we're a conference of strength. Weak conferences don't kick people out. It would also be kind of a cool distinction for our conference. Temple would be the only team ever kicked out of a conference twice. It's important for the new Big East to show it still has some character. We don't want Temple in the conference. We've got to keep out the rift-raft.

 

[whaler11]

Here are the minor conference teams that were in front of UConn that year (ironically, Memphis is one):

Memphis (8-4)
No. Texas (9-3)
New Mex (8-4)
Navy (8-4)
Fres St (8-5)
Colo St (7-5)
Tulsa (8-4)

So it wasn't just a matter of not having enough bowls, if a 7-5 "non-BCS team" is getting in before UConn. I remember the Hartford Courant uproar when it happened, because everyone assumed we were in (especially after drubbing WF). It was a gigantic snub, and I'm not willing to revise history to match your take on it.

It was far from a giganic snub and it only showed how little our fanbase understood the sport. Funny about Memphis, CUSA with Ville and Cinci isn't quite as minor as being an independent.

Their leagues had tie ins to games. In 2010 Temple in a conference was the one team of 71 left home. UConn was an independent in a system that had 56 bowl teams.

Defend Temple all you like. They have no fan base and a long storied history of
sucking. If you think a few 8 win seasons in the MAC changes that - well I guess we'll see going forward, but even against the mediocre 2012 Big East they are almost universally a distant 8th.

 

[UCFBfan]

Regardless of the circumstances of Temple's entry into the Big East, now that we're comfortable because Boise State is on board, we need to kick Temple out again. That will show we're a conference of strength. Weak conferences don't kick people out. It would also be kind of a cool distinction for our conference. Temple would be the only team ever kicked out of a conference twice. It's important for the new Big East to show it still has some character. We don't want Temple in the conference. We've got to keep out the rift-raft.

What other conference has kicked a team out? Come on....If "conferences of strength" did such silly things do you think Iowa St or Kansas would still be in the Big-12? Do you think Northwestern would be in the B1G? Would Vandy be in the SEC? Would Duke be in the ACC? All the programs I listed bring different things to the table for the conference, most notably bball. Temple will do the same. They have shown some growth in football and might be decent (I don't have hope but you never know). However, they bring a solid academic profile, a good men's and women's bball team, and a second team in a large market. It's the big picture that needs to be seen here, not just through the football goggles.

 

[Marty Jackson]

Substitute "top 5 leagues" for "top 6 leagues" and you may be on to something.

No organization of any type gets stronger when you add members that are below the median strength that exists before their addition. I don't understand why that concept gives so many here so much trouble. We did not strengthen ourselves by adding Memphis. We did not strengthen ourselves by adding Temple. And we will not be strengthening ourselves by adding schools that we didn't look at adding while we still had Temple and Memphis to go to.

I disagree with your point. It's not as black and white as you put it. Yes, we are dilluting our league with lessor perceived programs. However, we're also targeting programs in hopes of finding the next Utah, TCU, and Boise (and Louisville/Cincy)... Schools with upward mobility if you will. That in fact does create a gap between us and the other 'non big 5' leagues (MWC, MAC, etc)... I would agree that this strategy doesn't necessarily get us hooked up to the other Big 5 which I believe is your point. But, if we create a big enough seperation with the other conferences, it makes it harder for the pundits to lump us with them (think A-10 in BB. you have to put them as a major BB conference now. not a mid major anymore).
Based on your point, there would be zero realignment. not one program has left their current conference for a lesser 'perceived' conference. Not one. And, when conferences poach another, it isn't poaching a better or stronger conference. That's why the Big12 poaching the ACC would be so detrimental. It would cement the ACC as the 5th conference and put them at the same table with the BE. Notice that up until now, no ACC team has left. That may change, but until it does, the ACC is alive and doing fine along with the other 'major' conferences.

 

[Marty Jackson]

It was far from a giganic snub and it only showed how little our fanbase understood the sport. Funny about Memphis, CUSA with Ville and Cinci isn't quite as minor as being an independent.

Their leagues had tie ins to games. In 2010 Temple in a conference was the one team of 71 left home. UConn was an independent in a system that had 56 bowl teams.

Defend Temple all you like. They have no fan base and a long storied history of
sucking. If you think a few 8 win seasons in the MAC changes that - well I guess we'll see going forward, but even against the mediocre 2012 Big East they are almost universally a distant 8th.

who cares... one of the biggest issues this league has faced is the lack of seperation. the fact that just about any team can beat another in this league on any give day isn't viewed as a plus. By adding a Memphis, or even a Temple if you will(I laugh at the notion that they are below us as they've been pretty competitive with Uconn for several years now), it only helps to create some seperation. The SEC has 4-5 solid teams each year. The rest are buoyed by the fact that they are in the SEC.
If having a school like Memphis gives us an easy win why are we complaining?

 

[UConnDan97]

It was far from a giganic snub and it only showed how little our fanbase understood the sport. Funny about Memphis, CUSA with Ville and Cinci isn't quite as minor as being an independent.

Their leagues had tie ins to games. In 2010 Temple in a conference was the one team of 71 left home. UConn was an independent in a system that had 56 bowl teams.

Defend Temple all you like. They have no fan base and a long storied history of
sucking. If you think a few 8 win seasons in the MAC changes that - well I guess we'll see going forward, but even against the mediocre 2012 Big East they are almost universally a distant 8th.

I'm still waiting for you to rescind your comment that the Big East only added Temple to fill the schedule, since I provided at least 5 links that stated Villanova had been blocking them since October of last year. I suspect I will continue to wait...

 

[whaler11]

I'm still waiting for you to rescind your comment that the Big East only added Temple to fill the schedule, since I provided at least 5 links that stated Villanova had been blocking them since October of last year. I suspect I will continue to wait...

I'm not going to as that is why they are in the league. They pressured Nova because they needed Temple for 2012.

The new football schools don't give a crap if the Catholics walk. Only UConn and Louisville do.