Big East Job Rankings - Anonymous Poll

[HW611]

I feel like you’re arguing just for the sake of it. I’m not dumping on any of them. As you say, it’s a roster full of okay pieces. It’s not the roster you build when you’re flush with NIL cash though. That’s the point.

Oh I don’t think they’re Kentucky or Kansas.

But I’m not sure how far away they are from us let’s say. Not sure how much different guys like Silas and Smith are from KJ and Mack (cost wise).

Plus, it seems Cooley’s strategy heavily revolves around bringing in guys from the DMV area. Almost their whole roster is.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

Georgetown gave up on JT3 off basically 1 or 2 underachieving recruiting classes. I thought he was a great game plan/in game coach.

Ewing was a terrible coach who could not relate with the players, which was very predictable. The program was a revolving door of good players who hated playing for Ewing.

Cooley is an overrated coach who can’t level up to a higher caliber program and is clearly lost managing a payroll. They should cut Cooley loose and hire a younger, cheaper coach and get a good program GM. Georgetown’s wealth and location should make it a top 30 program.

 

[auror]

Georgetown gave up on JT3 off basically 1 or 2 underachieving recruiting classes. I thought he was a great game plan/in game coach.

Ewing was a terrible coach who could not relate with the players, which was very predictable. The program was a revolving door of good players who hated playing for Ewing.

Cooley is an overrated coach who can’t level up to a higher caliber program and is clearly lost managing a payroll. They should cut Cooley loose and hire a younger, cheaper coach and get a good program GM. Georgetown’s wealth and location should make it a top 30 program.

JT3 also didn't win in the tournament for a while. After he made the Final Four in '07, they went through a brutal stretch of getting upset by double digit seeds. They didn't get past the 2nd round for a decade despite getting 5 top four seeds.

Lost to 10 seed Steph Curry+Davidson as a 2 seed in 2nd round.
Lost to 14 seed Ohio as a 3 seed in 1st round.
Lost to 11 seed VCU as a 6 seed (but that was the VCU team that made the final four).
Lost to 11 seed NC State as a 3 seed in 2nd round.
Lost to 15 seed Dunk City FGCU as a 2 seed in 1st round.
Lost to 5 seed Utah as a 4 seed in 2nd round.

He was by far the worst coach in the tournament during that span.

Those years were so bad that even if you include his full tenure with the final four he was still 279th in performance against projections, being 4 games under expectation.

After those 6 straight upsets, they went back to back years with losing records in the Big East.

There were some really good teams in there, but it's tough for a fanbase to have patience with that.

 

[WhereistheDove?]

Oh I don’t think they’re Kentucky or Kansas.

But I’m not sure how far away they are from us let’s say. Not sure how much different guys like Silas and Smith are from KJ and Mack (cost wise).

Plus, it seems Cooley’s strategy heavily revolves around bringing in guys from the DMV area. Almost their whole roster is.

It’s obviously not public but if that is the roster that Cooley put together with a comparable NIL budget to us, that is a HUGE indictment of Cooley. I would be quite surprised if they’re playing with a comparable budget. I’m not talking about the couple good players, I’m talking about 3/5 of the starting five that are not starting caliber players on a good team.

 

[nelsonmuntz]

JT3 also didn't win in the tournament for a while. After he made the Final Four in '07, they went through a brutal stretch of getting upset by double digit seeds. They didn't get past the 2nd round for a decade despite getting 5 top four seeds.

Lost to 10 seed Steph Curry+Davidson as a 2 seed in 2nd round.
Lost to 14 seed Ohio as a 3 seed in 1st round.
Lost to 11 seed VCU as a 6 seed (but that was the VCU team that made the final four).
Lost to 11 seed NC State as a 3 seed in 2nd round.
Lost to 15 seed Dunk City FGCU as a 2 seed in 1st round.
Lost to 5 seed Utah as a 4 seed in 2nd round.

He was by far the worst coach in the tournament during that span.
View attachment 115813
Those years were so bad that even if you include his full tenure with the final four he was still 279th in performance against projections, being 4 games under expectation.

After those 6 straight upsets, they went back to back years with losing records in the Big East.

There were some really good teams in there, but it's tough for a fanbase to have patience with that.

What is the source database that you used? It looks interesting.

I am fine with tournament upsets being a factor in evaluating a coach, but not a major factor because there is a bit of circular logic to them. A team has to earn a high seed to get upset in the tournament, which means the coach can't be that bad. So when a high seed gets upset, were they overseeded because the coach overperformed for the season with a team that wasn't really as good as its seed? Or was the coach consistently getting picked off with very talented teams. It becomes subjective.

Gene Keady is one of the best coaches of all time, but he was on the wrong side of a lot of tournament upsets because it turns out his teams were outperforming by so much during the season that they got overseeded and were susceptible to getting picked off because they weren't as good as their seeding.

Unlike a consistent tournament disappointment like Calipari, JT3 didn't have a ton of high level NBA talent coming through during his time at Georgetown. He lost a lot of his recruiting mojo after 2010, but was still a good coach. Georgetown has obviously not been able to do better since he left.

 

[HW611]

What is the source database that you used? It looks interesting.

I am fine with tournament upsets being a factor in evaluating a coach, but not a major factor because there is a bit of circular logic to them. A team has to earn a high seed to get upset in the tournament, which means the coach can't be that bad. So when a high seed gets upset, were they overseeded because the coach overperformed for the season with a team that wasn't really as good as its seed? Or was the coach consistently getting picked off with very talented teams. It becomes subjective.

Gene Keady is one of the best coaches of all time, but he was on the wrong side of a lot of tournament upsets because it turns out his teams were outperforming by so much during the season that they got overseeded and were susceptible to getting picked off because they weren't as good as their seeding.

Unlike a consistent tournament disappointment like Calipari, JT3 didn't have a ton of high level NBA talent coming through during his time at Georgetown. He lost a lot of his recruiting mojo after 2010, but was still a good coach. Georgetown has obviously not been able to do better since he left.

To be clear, Georgetown finished in the top 15 in 2012 and top 10 in 2013. They had NBA talents like Roy Hibbert, Greg Monroe, Jeff Green, Otto Porter, and more.

Outside of the tournament upsets, they were every bit of a top program in the country.

 

[RichZ]

One of the craziest things about Georgetown is the fact that they play in a HS gym on campus despite the history they have.

Probably doesn’t help that they don’t seem to have great relationships with their legends either.

Georgetown's bball legends are too far removed from the current student population. (I couldn't use avid fan population, as this thread wouldn't exist of they actually had one.) When John Thompson was there, and they had players like Ewing, Mourning and Iverson, they had a strong following. Post JT, they were never able to regain that prominence. But that era ended 30 years ago, and they never seemed to have developed a lasting relationship with their former stars. The did have some players in the early teens, Monroe, Porter, etc. But didn't seem to to generate the kind of fan buzz that lasting popularity is built on.

 

[FfldCntyFan]

JT3 also didn't win in the tournament for a while. After he made the Final Four in '07, they went through a brutal stretch of getting upset by double digit seeds. They didn't get past the 2nd round for a decade despite getting 5 top four seeds.

Lost to 10 seed Steph Curry+Davidson as a 2 seed in 2nd round.
Lost to 14 seed Ohio as a 3 seed in 1st round.
Lost to 11 seed VCU as a 6 seed (but that was the VCU team that made the final four).
Lost to 11 seed NC State as a 3 seed in 2nd round.
Lost to 15 seed Dunk City FGCU as a 2 seed in 1st round.
Lost to 5 seed Utah as a 4 seed in 2nd round.

He was by far the worst coach in the tournament during that span.
View attachment 115813
Those years were so bad that even if you include his full tenure with the final four he was still 279th in performance against projections, being 4 games under expectation.

After those 6 straight upsets, they went back to back years with losing records in the Big East.

There were some really good teams in there, but it's tough for a fanbase to have patience with that.

To be fair, Davidson, VCU & Florida Gulf Coast were all far better teams than their seeding. That said, going zero for the other three does warrant concern.

I felt it was a mistake on Georgetown's part moving on from him, similar to moves that many schools have made (Seton Hall moving on from Louie Orr comes to mind) when they believe what a good coach has accomplished wasn't good enough.

 

[businesslawyer]

Just in our conference Providence, St. John's, Marquette, Creighton, Seton Hall, DePaul.

You think you’re going to change his opinion with facts?

 

[nelsonmuntz]

To be clear, Georgetown finished in the top 15 in 2012 and top 10 in 2013. They had NBA talents like Roy Hibbert, Greg Monroe, Jeff Green, Otto Porter, and more.

Outside of the tournament upsets, they were every bit of a top program in the country.

Most of those guys were early in JT3's tenure. Porter came later, and was a really good player, although I kind of get why Porter would be on the wrong side of upsets. He didn't have the killer instinct in the pros either.

This rebuttal to the getting upset in the tournament argument comes from an article I read years ago that made the case that the tournament upsets showed how great a coach Keady was. He had like 1 or 2 first round draft picks in about a 20 year stretch. I think it is a factor to take into account while looking at a coach holistically.

In any event, I always liked JT3's teams.