BiG CR articles

[btstimpy]

It's a competition thing. For one, BC lost 27 straight basketball games to UConn through the 90s and early 00s. Secondly, in 2002, long before the BC to ACC thing became a reality, the Boston Globe reported that BCs AD and others were leery of UConn joining the BE for football because they had fairly dominated in basketball, and because Connecticut was a good BC recruiting ground. Unlike all other states in New England, the state of Connecticut produces top football players at a clip reminiscent of a Wisconsin and the like. Two years ago 7 former Ct. high schoolers were drafted in the first 3 rounds. UConn's rise into the BE also coincided with Syracuse plummeting in football. Don't forget about Cuse's long history of Conn. players, from Floyd Little to Dwight Freeney and Tebucky Jones and beyond.

I do think these two schools have less access to recruits because of UConn, but that doesn't mean their actions are legitimate.

I hear what you're saying, but I think that's a cop out. The ACC provides many solid recruiting areas so that those schools don't have to be constrained to Connecticut kids. And UConn being in the league won't make it any harder for Syracuse and BC to recruit in Connecticut than UConn in the AAC or the Big Ten. Syracuse's and BC's coaches have to sell their programs. It is just like UVA having to compete with Virginia Tech for kids here in Virginia. We win some and we lose some. The schools are so different from one another that the kids have a choice.

 

[B1GALUM]

The ACCIAC is a similar Collaborative Consortium. It is modelled after the Big Ten's CIC, and it was established through the efforts former Big Ten executives like Donna Shalala, Teresa Sullivan, etc who are now in the ACC and have experience with the CIC. It has much of the same collaborative purchasing, cross university access to courses, library access, and undergraduate research funding. In the 90s when the ACC did not have this, there was a greater difference than exists today between the Big Ten and ACC.

http://acciac.org/

http://www.miami.edu/index.php/pres.../acciac_creativity_and_innovation_fellowship/

http://college.wfu.edu/ureca/acciac

Excellent. As faculty we are proud of the CIC and I commend the ACC on forming a similar model. I appreciate the information you shared.
Penn State is a great university. I would hate to lose Penn State from the B1G just as you would love to add Penn State to the ACC.
I would be interested to hear from Penn State alums and faculty about their perspective on a preference for the B1G or ACC.
Although we have a difference of opinion on Penn State, I think we agree that one of our respective conferences needs to step forward and recognize the value UConn would bring and extend an invitation.

 

[btstimpy]

And the ACC takes in Louisville over UConn? What is Louisville going to add in research? How to breed better horses and make better baseball bats? Completely mind-boggling.

Primarily biomedical. http://louisville.edu/research/

The decision was based on athletics though. The ACC lost a struggling athletic program from a financial standpoint in Maryland. They added a very healthy one. Louisville runs a very successful $95 million athletic department on Big East TV money. The ACC expects them to thrive in the ACC and quickly field teams in all the sponsored sports in the league.

I think UConn would do the same.

 

[btstimpy]

Excellent. As faculty we are proud of the CIC and I commend the ACC on forming a similar model. I appreciate the information you shared.
Penn State is a great university. I would hate to lose Penn State from the B1G just as you would love to add Penn State to the ACC.
I would be interested to hear from Penn State alums and faculty about their perspective on a preference for the B1G or ACC.
Although we have a difference of opinion on Penn State, I think we agree that one of our respective conferences needs to step forward and recognize the value UConn would bring and extend an invitation.

Penn State isn't leaving the Big Ten. I don't think you have to worry. And I agree with you regarding UConn.

 

[Duncan Idaho]

When you look at the recruiting of PSU, Ohio State and Michigan, these 3 schools had top classes year after year, sent so many players to he NFL, as many as top programs elsewhere, brought a lot of kids from down south up north, and yet they could never win on the big stages. Why? Because the coaching was subpar: Paterno was 10 years too old, Cooper fumbled around, Carr couldn't win the one game that mattered, Rodriugez was a disaster. Etc. Tressel is the only one that changed some of the perception.

I'd say the B1G had a coaching problem, not a talent problem.

I thought PSU took 99% of their players from the Mid-Atlantic states, some from Ohio and less from New England

 

[upstater]

I thought PSU took 99% of their players from the Mid-Atlantic states, some from Ohio and less from New England

Michigan, Ohio, South Carolina, North Carolina, Georgia, Virginia, Maryland, New York, New Jersey, Penn., New England

They frequently recruit the Atlantic south and the midwest. They pull a lot of kids from the Carolinas and Georgia.

I just googled this random roster: http://pennstate.scout.com/a.z?s=157&p=8&c=2&nid=688&yr=2006

It's not atypical that they have a lot of Carolina and Georgia kids.

 

[upstater]

It doesn't make sense to me. I don't understand then why the two of them get along so well when they don't get along with UConn. Hopefully the ACC can resolve some of this and Notre Dame break through this by requesting UConn. I can understand the attraction to Louisville, but it shouldn't be at the expense of UConn. I think there is room for both. UConn would enhance the ACC in the NY/NE area.

What is the attraction to Louisville exactly?

 

[upstater]

Touchdown Jesus says, Yes!

Even without a medical school, or state funding, or limited federal funding as it is a religious university, or…

If you go anywhere in the world, people know Michigan. Most have never heard of ND. I think ND is an American phenomenon.

 

[pj]

If you go anywhere in the world, people know Michigan. Most have never heard of ND. I think ND is an American phenomenon.

I was reaching when I said international and retract that. Athletically Notre Dame is a national institution. As a Catholic institution, they have a global reputation, but one can also say that Michigan has a global reputation as an academic institution.

But the B1G athletic conference does not have a global reputation. Even in the US it is almost synonymous with the Midwest. Penn State is arguably an eastern institution, but culturally it is as Midwestern as the east gets. Rutgers and Maryland are really the first overt steps toward growing the B1G beyond the Midwest.

 

[upstater]

I was reaching when I said international and retract that. Athletically Notre Dame is a national institution. As a Catholic institution, they have a global reputation, but one can also say that Michigan has a global reputation as an academic institution.

But the B1G athletic conference does not have a global reputation. Even in the US it is almost synonymous with the Midwest. Penn State is arguably an eastern institution, but culturally it is as Midwestern as the east gets. Rutgers and Maryland are really the first overt steps toward growing the B1G beyond the Midwest.

Most people think American college sports are a weird oddity. Michigan is known worldwide for its research. I've never heard anyone mention ND at any of the int'l events I've been to. And when colleagues from ND cite their affiliation, it doesn't really register.

 

[btstimpy]

What is the attraction to Louisville exactly?

They have a $95 million athletic department that has shown itself to be successful and self sufficient. It is top 40 in the Director's cup. They have recently upgraded most of their athletic facilities. Florida State, Georgia Tech, and Virginia Tech once were their conference mates in the Metro Conference, and they supported their inclusion. They pleased both the basketball oriented schools and the football oriented schools in the league. Notre Dame wanted another midwestern team in the league, and apparently have developed somewhat of a basketball rivalry with Louisville. The ACC saw academic improvement at Louisville even though they need to work on that more.

We were losing a $60 million athletic department that is financially unable to fund its department without losing money. The stuff above was attractive in comparison.

 

[DarthGrumpy]

If you go anywhere in the world, people know Michigan. Most have never heard of ND. I think ND is an American phenomenon.

Major college athletics are an American phenomom, especially football and basketball. Everywhere else, even to a lesser degree baseball, soccer and hockey in the US, ‘development’ leagues are owned by the major sporting leagues or the individual academics, like Arsenal, Man U, Bayren, Barca, etc. U Toronto in Canada is as good a University as most B1G schools and yet no one has ever heard of their athletic program. When I studied in France, I had no problem trying out for and starting on the University’s ‘intermural’ team, i.e. we played other local universities that could be reached by trolley or train; but, I was nowhere good enough to play for UConn.

 

[DarthGrumpy]

They have a $95 million athletic department that has shown itself to be successful and self sufficient. It is top 40 in the Director's cup. They have recently upgraded most of their athletic facilities. Florida State, Georgia Tech, and Virginia Tech once were their conference mates in the Metro Conference, and they supported their inclusion. They pleased both the basketball oriented schools and the football oriented schools in the league. Notre Dame wanted another midwestern team in the league, and apparently have developed somewhat of a basketball rivalry with Louisville. The ACC saw academic improvement at Louisville even though they need to work on that more.

We were losing a $60 million athletic department that is financially unable to fund its department without losing money. The stuff above was attractive in comparison.

No doubt that Louisville has invested a lot in its sport programs recently. That said, there is risk. Most believe that their athletic department’s revenues are smoke and mirrors.

A vast chunk of their athletic department profits come from the brand new, city owned basketball arena, i.e. the Yum Center. U Louisville keeps all ticket revenue and a percentage of concession revenue while they pay only a portion of the operating costs and none of the debt service (initially $348 million total, now approaching $800 million). It’s puzzling how the country’s ‘most profitable’ college basketball program (2013 revenue $40 million, profits between $28 and $22 million); but, the Yum Center, whose main tenant is U Louisville, losses $30K for every home Louisville men’s basketball game ($80K for women’s) and S&P gave the arena’s bond a BBB-, i.e. just north of junk bond status.

 

[NEforceUConn]

Great thread. The one thing that I don't believe anyone has stressed is IF UConn gets a B1G invite then BCU and Cuse FB is toast. Burnt toast. And the ACC fb schools will really get tired of traveling to Boston or Syracuse to win by 30 points.

Under similar conditions Cuse BB sans JB could go south very fast. Now how's that going to look in 7 years?

The B1G should invite UConn in early 2014 for a 2016 start and see if schools squirm knowing that only 1 more B1G seat exists.

 

[huskypantz]

No doubt that Louisville has invested a lot in its sport programs recently. That said, there is risk. Most believe that their athletic department’s revenues are smoke and mirrors.

A vast chunk of their athletic department profits come from the brand new, city owned basketball arena, i.e. the Yum Center. U Louisville keeps all ticket revenue and a percentage of concession revenue while they pay only a portion of the operating costs and none of the debt service (initially $348 million total, now approaching $800 million). It’s puzzling how the country’s ‘most profitable’ college basketball program (2013 revenue $40 million, profits between $28 and $22 million); but, the Yum Center, whose main tenant is U Louisville, losses $30K for every home Louisville men’s basketball game ($80K for women’s) and S&P gave the arena’s bond a BBB-, i.e. just north of junk bond status.

This.

 

[DarthGrumpy]

It doesn't make sense to me. I don't understand then why the two of them get along so well when they don't get along with UConn. Hopefully the ACC can resolve some of this and Notre Dame break through this by requesting UConn. I can understand the attraction to Louisville, but it shouldn't be at the expense of UConn. I think there is room for both. UConn would enhance the ACC in the NY/NE area.

Appreciate it, thanks. As I said before, based on history and travel, UConn should be in the ACC: but, after everything that has taken place over the last 10 years, I would lean B1G today.

The Northeast has a limited # of recruits and TV to split into a lot of schools (pre consolidation in the 80’s & 90’s) and competition for pro sports. BC and Syracuse were happy being the kings of the hill. Rutgers has always had a lot of potential; but, limited success at least until recently in football. UConn somehow in a 20 year period (1985-2005) sprinted ahead of its peers in the old Yankee conference (Maine, UNH, Vermont, UMass, URI, UConn) and became a national power academically and athletically. While some poor coaching choices have not helped, I do not believe that it is coincidence that Syracuse is 51 – 82 since 2002 when UConn jumped D1 and the Big E in football. BC has done a lot better, 86 – 55 since 2002. I have not solid proof; but, it could show that the combination of UConn and Rutgers, who both recruit heavily in NJ, have had on Syracuse in particular, less of an impact on BC.

 

[RioDog]

If you go anywhere in the world, people know Michigan. Most have never heard of ND. I think ND is an American phenomenon.

Anywhere? Been to Brazil? I prepare students here to take the TOEFL and SAT, and ND is as least as well known as MI- maybe because of the high proportion of Catholics...

 

[DarthGrumpy]

This.

So true; but, some guy named John Pemberton in the late 1800’s created a concoction that was supposed to cure disease, headaches, and even impotence out of drug stores and push carts in Atlanta. Roughly, 130 years later, Coca-Cola is a Fortune 100 company with 146,000 employees globally and revenues of $48 billion. Sometimes, smoke and mirrors work. As it did for Louisville this time.

 

[Gfunk]

Say what you want about Md, their financial issues are deserving of criticism. But the ACC lost a member who has quietly been in second place, all time, ncaa titles amongst current ACC schools - UNC is first. They are dominant in lesser sports like field hockey, women's lax & they remain a premier brand in men's lax and men's soccer. They also have one of the stronger women's and men's basketball programs of the ACC - they are in fact the only school outside of NoCar to win a NC in men's basketball - sorry Lville's titles are all outside ACC membership. Lastly, Md has pretty decent hs football and excellent hs basketball, which leads me to my next point:

• What doesn't yield enough attention for those slighting the BIG's recent expansion is the following: Jersey and Md are the best recruiting grounds for basketball and football recruits - Mid Atlantic (north of Va) to Maine. PSU, for example, has long depended on these states for their football prestige.

To top it off, Md is one of the best academic institutions in the ACC once people get past the utterly overstated emphasis on undergraduate schools. Md has more than 20 top 20 GRADUATE programs, whether you look at US News or NRC measurements. They also have the leisure of selecting hs students from one of the top k-12 states in the country.

Also, since I actually like the ACC, albeit I'm more of a BIG fan, as a cf fan, I just can't imagine the ACC penetrating the southeast like the SEC. FSU and Miami's glory days seem ancient, though in the grand scheme of cfb history much of their success is recent. The SEC is just that damn good when it comes to football & the cultures they've created, the fandom has grown especially during this phenomenal streak of 7 consecutive BCS titles. Look at SC, the Gamecocks are now the legit team in that state and Clemson has a pretty good football history - same goes for GTech vs UGa. There's only so much room in the Southeast and the ACC truly appears to be on the outside looking in.

As for Lville, at the end of the day they have only won NC's in men's basketball & they are distant second in the state of Ky in terms of fans and compassion. You cite their recent Director's Cup rankings, which is decent, but Md has cracked the top 40 at least 10x since this system's inception - top 25 at least twice.

But hey now, I like Lville and where they are going - really fun city to visit , a crossroads type place, midwestern and southern, and in my opinion the Ohio River Valley is the best hs basketball region in the country.

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They have a $95 million athletic department that has shown itself to be successful and self sufficient. It is top 40 in the Director's cup. They have recently upgraded most of their athletic facilities. Florida State, Georgia Tech, and Virginia Tech once were their conference mates in the Metro Conference, and they supported their inclusion. They pleased both the basketball oriented schools and the football oriented schools in the league. Notre Dame wanted another midwestern team in the league, and apparently have developed somewhat of a basketball rivalry with Louisville. The ACC saw academic improvement at Louisville even though they need to work on that more.

We were losing a $60 million athletic department that is financially unable to fund its department without losing money. The stuff above was attractive in comparison.

 

[DarthGrumpy]

Great thread. The one thing that I don't believe anyone has stressed is IF UConn gets a B1G invite then BCU and Cuse FB is toast. Burnt toast. And the ACC fb schools will really get tired of traveling to Boston or Syracuse to win by 30 points.

Under similar conditions Cuse BB sans JB could go south very fast. Now how's that going to look in 7 years?

The B1G should invite UConn in early 2014 for a 2016 start and see if schools squirm knowing that only 1 more B1G seat exists.

I believe that Syracuse has the most to lose with UConn going to the B1G and Syracuse knows it, which explains the sudden knife in the back. What does Syracuse offer that UConn cannot match – call it football history and lacrosse. UConn has an edge in basketball (3 to 1), UConn on average is equal or slightly better that Syracuse in academics, UConn is a cheaper to go to for the average student, and UConn is a lot closer NYC that Syracuse (and graduates more). Plus, while Storrs is not a thriving college town (though Storrs Center is trying to fix that), Syracuse is not Boston nor Ann Arbor. Heck, ask the average Syracuse football fan who they would rather play, and I bet its 75/25 Penn State over BC.

BC will be impacted; but less. There will always be certain students who want a Catholic education in a great college city, which are two elements that UConn will never be.

 

[huskypantz]

So true; but, some guy named John Pemberton in the late 1800’s created a concoction that was supposed to cure disease, headaches, and even impotence out of drug stores and push carts in Atlanta. Roughly, 130 years later, Coca-Cola is a Fortune 100 company with 146,000 employees globally and revenues of $48 billion. Sometimes, smoke and mirrors work. As it did for Louisville this time.

Smoke, mirrors and cocaine.

 

[NickyNewark]

I agree that most wouldn't have preferred the ACC up until recently. They viewed it as a Southern Conference. But some I've talked with like the idea of Boston College, Syracuse, Pitt, and Notre Dame in there now. It makes the ACC a whole lot more attractive to them than it was a decade ago. The Maryland and Rutgers invites were done in part to try to get some eastern presense in the Big Ten to try to keep Penn State content.

The direct access to Florida, Georgia, and the Carolinas for recruiting football talent would be a bonus. Paterno was already recruiting in Virginia and Maryland anyway.

Jopa had been touting RU for years and in the 80s he considered coaching there but instead send Dicky Anderson also Glen Mason and others in the B1G knew of the potential on NJ/NY and what that market could to to shape perception of the B1G from Midwestern to a national conference! Thats why I think RU feels more of an affinity with the B1G as the schools are less of a mix of private/public like the ACC! This CR stuff has really distracted me from a lot of the things i always loved about CFB ..mostly the regional rivalry's getting similar dollars so no one was at too much of a disadvantage!Getting way too political for me!

 

[UPitt]

You left out the most important parts of the post. First of all, I can't even fathom how you get 10 or 15 million when it's taken teams 2 and 3 years to get out. Your own school Pitt announced in 2011 and is finally in the conference for 2013-2014. 2 years without SEC pay = $60 million. Then you look at Rutgers that is taking 7 years to get paid by the B1G. If Rutgers were leaving the SEC, it would have made $70 million less in those 7 years than it otherwise would have by staying put. Total bill for leaving: $130 million.

WVU announced leaving the Big East in Oct 2011 and officially joined the Big 12 on July 1st, 2012. That is only 8 months, and the Big East required 27 months notice. Also WVU is receiving payment from Big 12 during the first year. Pitt and Cuse are receiving full payment the first year. With no 27 month requirement it is reasonable to assume that if the B1G wanted an SEC school they could ensure a quick entry and pay them during the first year. Also a school like Uconn would follow and join immediately as well. If an SEC school was as timely and crafty as WVU ( Vandy and Mizzou are without question) then they could leave the SEC for under $20 million.

This does not mean an SEC school is leaving, because I do not think any will, but it would not cost $130 million to leave the SEC.

 

[upstater]

WVU announced leaving the Big East in Oct 2011 and officially joined the Big 12 on July 1st, 2012. That is only 8 months, and the Big East required 27 months notice. Also WVU is receiving payment from Big 12 during the first year. Pitt and Cuse are receiving full payment the first year. With no 27 month requirement it is reasonable to assume that if the B1G wanted an SEC school they could ensure a quick entry and pay them during the first year. Also a school like Uconn would follow and join immediately as well. If an SEC school was as timely and crafty as WVU ( Vandy and Mizzou are without question) then they could leave the SEC for under $20 million.

This does not mean an SEC school is leaving, because I do not think any will, but it would not cost $130 million to leave the SEC.

WVU paid 4x the exit fee and was allowed to leave early. They are clearly the outlier. Most teams left after 2 years.

What in heavens are you arguing anyway?

It would cost a school $130 million IF they were given the same buy-in as Rutgers. I can't even see how you can possibly argue that. It's crazy to argue that since Rutgers is getting quarter and half shares. So why even bother arguing it? You're making no sense.

 

[upstater]

• 
  [ ]What doesn't yield enough attention for those slighting the BIG's recent expansion is the following: Jersey and Md are the best recruiting grounds for basketball and football recruits - Mid Atlantic (north of Va) to Maine. PSU, for example, has long depended on these states for their football prestige.

For football, we saw that Grantland map that showed Penn. as having many more blue chips per capita than both Maryland and NJ. Md. and NJ are 2nd and 3rd to PA.

In BBall you have the metro areas of Baltimore, DC, Philly, NYC and Boston which are all roughly similar in talent.