Best Freshman Seasons Ever?

[bballnut90]

I think your memory is faulty or lets say "selective"? After Greene and Thomas had back to back ACL injuries, Maya started and was the star of the team, in fact the best player in the country at that point. She almost beat out Parker (a player who had already been in college for TWO years) for NPOY even after injuring her back and playing hurt.

Yes, she was relied upon....but she was not relied upon as much as Parker was for that Tennessee team. Moore was relied upon to carry much of the offensive load on the wing, and she delivered. Parker was relied upon as the offensive distributor, the primary ball handler, the primary option in the paint, and was also relied upon to create her own shot off the dribble. If you want to play the injury game, Parker also was not at 100%, as she went down a couple times with knee problems during the course of the season.

BTW Moore did not almost beat out Parker for NPOY...Moore was the #5 vote getter for the AP All-America teams and wasn't in the top 4 for for the Naismith Trophy. Moore did finish 2nd to Parker in the Wooden award voting, but Parker finished with 274 points, Moore with 144, followed by Fowles with 134 and Wiggins with 121 (http://patsummitt.blogspot.com/2008/04/candace-parker-wins-second-wooden-award.html).

So did Moore finish 2nd in POY voting? In one poll (and maybe others), yes. Did she almost beat out Parker for NPOY awards as a freshman? Not even close.

 

[bballnut90]

The Shea question is interesting to me. Certainly, Uconn was the odds on favorite prior to Shea's injury, and its season ended in disappointment in the regional finals after. The question is whether the loss was due to the loss of Shea's production, or was it due to the way the team, and Geno in particular, responded to her injury. Geno has suggested explicitly it was the latter. And if he's right, where within the lists brought up by this thread does Shea belong?

Would have been really interesting to see how UCONN would've done with a healthy Shea Ralph. The Tennessee game would've been an interesting one, Tennessee played well in the regional finals (Holdsclaw/Jolly were sensational) so the upset might have happened regardless of Ralph. If UCONN did make it past Tennessee, they would've had no trouble with Notre Dame, and the title match up against either Stanford or ODU would've made for a really interesting game. Both ODU and Stanford were 1 loss teams entering the Final Four and both were stacked (ODU with Penicheiro, Machanguana, Andrade, and Roberts...Stanford with Starbird, Folkl, Nygaard, Wideman, and Scott.) Either of those teams would've given Connecticut a great game. Kinda fun to play the "what if" game.

 

[Alydar]

Parker's senior year was Moore's freshman year. Is somebody claiming that senior Parker winning POY over a freshman is some sort of claim to superiority? And Parker didn't play her freshman year. There is no such thing as a "red shirt freshman" except in some minds. There are freshmen, sophomores, juniors and seniors. Parker's first year of competition was her sophomore year.

 

[UCONNfan1]

Yes, she was relied upon....but she was not relied upon as much as Parker was for that Tennessee team. Moore was relied upon to carry much of the offensive load on the wing, and she delivered. Parker was relied upon as the offensive distributor, the primary ball handler, the primary option in the paint, and was also relied upon to create her own shot off the dribble. If you want to play the injury game, Parker also was not at 100%, as she went down a couple times with knee problems during the course of the season.

Parker as the primary ball handler? Please. Shannon Bobbitt was the primary ball handler, and was for her 2 years there. Shannon had a great handle, super quick, and it turns out a good outside shot. Just because Parker could occasionally bring the ball up the court, or make a pass from the perimeter, doesn't make her a guard. Let's put "But Parker can play all 5 positions" to rest. That might fly elsewhere, but it's simply not true.

She was 3rd on the team in assists, and just barely ahead of Anosike in that department, another forward/center type of player. So will you argue that Nicky was the 4th guard on the team? Parker had an A/TO ratio of about 1:1, which is awful. And that stat speaks to her poor ball handling skills compared to guards. She shot 26% from beyond the arc, and 69% from the charity stripe. Neither is anything to write home about.

I'm not denying she deserved to be NPOY. She certainly did. And it also could be argued that Parker was relied upon so much more because Pat wasn't really teaching team offense. Never did, for that matter. Crash the boards. Play great defense. And no one in college had moves like Parker around the basket, so she was a nightmare to stop. When your team has 600 assists in a season on 1,100 made field goals, that's about a 55% clip. Not good by any stretch of the imagination.

 

[huskyrob1]

Yes, she was relied upon....but she was not relied upon as much as Parker was for that Tennessee team. Moore was relied upon to carry much of the offensive load on the wing, and she delivered. Parker was relied upon as the offensive distributor, the primary ball handler, the primary option in the paint, and was also relied upon to create her own shot off the dribble. If you want to play the injury game, Parker also was not at 100%, as she went down a couple times with knee problems during the course of the season.

BTW Moore did not almost beat out Parker for NPOY...Moore was the #5 vote getter for the AP All-America teams and wasn't in the top 4 for for the Naismith Trophy. Moore did finish 2nd to Parker in the Wooden award voting, but Parker finished with 274 points, Moore with 144, followed by Fowles with 134 and Wiggins with 121 (http://patsummitt.blogspot.com/2008/04/candace-parker-wins-second-wooden-award.html).

So did Moore finish 2nd in POY voting? In one poll (and maybe others), yes. Did she almost beat out Parker for NPOY awards as a freshman? Not even close.

Oh gimme a break, get real, the Wooden award IS the NPOY award, and a true freshman getting 2nd with 144 to 274 for the great and glorious Candace Parker in her last year in CB seems pretty close to me. Also, I don't recall Parker bringing up the ball more than Hornbuckle, Bjorklund or Shannon Bobbit. To say she was the primary ball handler and offensive distributor is pure folly, especially when considering that those 3 guards were the high scorer for 11 of Tennesee's games that year, not Parker. And if Parker carried so much of the offensive load for Tenn that year then how come her avg was 21.3 while Bobbit's was 21.00.

 

[bballnut90]

Parker's senior year was Moore's freshman year. Is somebody claiming that senior Parker winning POY over a freshman is some sort of claim to superiority? And Parker didn't play her freshman year. There is no such thing as a "red shirt freshman" except in some minds. There are freshmen, sophomores, juniors and seniors. Parker's first year of competition was her sophomore year.

So was Kalana Greene a sophomore twice then? And what about EDD since she didn't play basketball her first year of college?

It's ridiculous to say there's no such thing as a redshirt freshman....you can argue that she had the advantage of being adjusted to college, practicing with teammates, etc. but fact is she had never played a collegiate game before and had 0 college basketball experience at that point. I think people on here are trying to discredit Parker's great redshirt freshman season simply because she's Candace Parker and played for Tennessee...if it was Moore or Taurasi or a UCONN player, people wouldn't be trying to throw them out of this discussion for being a redshirt freshman.

 

[doggydaddy]

Parker as the primary ball handler? Please. Shannon Bobbitt was the primary ball handler, and was for her 2 years there. Shannon had a great handle, super quick, and it turns out a good outside shot. Just because Parker could occasionally bring the ball up the court, or make a pass from the perimeter, doesn't make her a guard. Let's put "But Parker can play all 5 positions" to rest. That might fly elsewhere, but it's simply not true.

You are pretty much spot on. But Bballnut is talking about her RS freshman year before Bobbitt's arrival. And it's very true that they were short handed in the guard position with Wiley leaving and for the last 10 games without Hornbuckle.

Tennessee needed some to step up and handle the ball and distribute to the other players. Problem with Bballnut's theory is that it wasn't Parker but it was Zolman that did that. Sure Parker did help prong the ball up and she played some point forward. But she was in no way the point guard.

That responsibility belonged to Zolman.

For the season, Parker had 2.9 APG and 2.3 TO's per game. The last 10 games she had 33 assists and 31 TO's, right around the same.

For the season, Zolman had 3.2 APG and 2.3 TO's per game. The last 10 games she had 50 assist and 30 TO's. big increase in production.

Zolman had games like 10/7,6/2,6/1,7/4,8/4. Clearly trying to make up for the loss of Hornbuckle.

Parker is a great player. One of the best of all time. We don't need to make up stuff to make her look better. Playing point guard is a myth, plain and simple.

 

[bballnut90]

Oh gimme a break, get real, the Wooden award IS the NPOY award, and a true freshman getting 2nd with 144 to 274 for the great and glorious Candace Parker in her last year in CB seems pretty close to me. Also, I don't recall Parker bringing up the ball more than Hornbuckle, Bjorklund or Shannon Bobbit. To say she was the primary ball handler and offensive distributor is pure folly, especially when considering that those 3 guards were the high scorer for 11 of Tennesee's games that year, not Parker.

Losing 144 to 274 is not almost beating someone. And in regards to ball handling, I was talking about the 2005-06 season when Parker was the point guard for the 2nd half of the season. Bobbitt wasn't in a UT uniform yet, Bjorklund was still in high school and Hornbuckle was on the bench with a broken wrist.

 

[doggydaddy]

I think people on here are trying to discredit Parker's great redshirt freshman season simply because she's Candace Parker and played for Tennessee...if it was Moore or Taurasi or a UCONN player, people wouldn't be trying to throw them out of this discussion for being a redshirt freshman.

And I think you are overstating her ball handling contributions because she played for Tennessee.

 

[bballnut90]

You are pretty much spot on. But Bballnut is talking about her RS freshman year before Bobbitt's arrival. And it's very true that they were short handed in the guard position with Wiley leaving and for the last 10 games without Hornbuckle.

Tennessee needed some to step up and handle the ball and distribute to the other players. Problem with Bballnut's theory is that it wasn't Parker but it was Zolman that did that. Sure Parker did help prong the ball up and she played some point forward. But she was in no way the point guard.

That responsibility belonged to Zolman.

For the season, Parker had 2.9 APG and 2.3 TO's per game. The last 10 games she had 33 assists and 31 TO's, right around the same.

For the season, Zolman had 3.2 APG and 2.3 TO's per game. The last 10 games she had 50 assist and 30 TO's. big increase in production.

Zolman had games like 10/7,6/2,6/1,7/4,8/4. Clearly trying to make up for the loss of Hornbuckle.

Parker is a great player. One of the best of all time. We don't need to make up stuff to make her look better. Playing point guard is a myth, plain and simple.

Did you watch the games that season? Parker brought the ball up the court, directed the offense and was the one who had to deal with any press thrown at her...not Zolman. Parker was the point guard.

 

[bballnut90]

Parker as the primary ball handler? Please. Shannon Bobbitt was the primary ball handler, and was for her 2 years there. Shannon had a great handle, super quick, and it turns out a good outside shot. Just because Parker could occasionally bring the ball up the court, or make a pass from the perimeter, doesn't make her a guard. Let's put "But Parker can play all 5 positions" to rest. That might fly elsewhere, but it's simply not true.

She was 3rd on the team in assists, and just barely ahead of Anosike in that department, another forward/center type of player. So will you argue that Nicky was the 4th guard on the team? Parker had an A/TO ratio of about 1:1, which is awful. And that stat speaks to her poor ball handling skills compared to guards. She shot 26% from beyond the arc, and 69% from the charity stripe. Neither is anything to write home about.

I'm not denying she deserved to be NPOY. She certainly did. And it also could be argued that Parker was relied upon so much more because Pat wasn't really teaching team offense. Never did, for that matter. Crash the boards. Play great defense. And no one in college had moves like Parker around the basket, so she was a nightmare to stop. When your team has 600 assists in a season on 1,100 made field goals, that's about a 55% clip. Not good by any stretch of the imagination.

I'm talking about the 2005-06 season...not 2007-08.

 

[doggydaddy]

Losing 144 to 274 is not almost beating someone. And in regards to ball handling, I was talking about the 2005-06 season when Parker was the point guard for the 2nd half of the season. Bobbitt wasn't in a UT uniform yet, Bjorklund was still in high school and Hornbuckle was on the bench with a broken wrist.

So, now it is the 2nd half of the season? Hornbuckle played 29 games to Parker's 36.

She wasn't the point guard.

 

[doggydaddy]

Did you watch the games that season? Parker brought the ball up the court, directed the offense and was the one who had to deal with any press thrown at her...not Zolman. Parker was the point guard.

I watched plenty. Parker played point forward some of the time.

 

[Alydar]

So was Kalana Greene a sophomore twice then? And what about EDD since she didn't play basketball her first year of college?

.

Greene played 4 years. Her soph., Jun., Sen., and 5th year.
.
EDD played her sophomore, Junior and Senior years, graduating with her class, just like Parker.

It's just that simple. A student's class is determined by enrollment in the school, not by when they set foot first on a basketball court.

 

[triaddukefan]

Would have been really interesting to see how UCONN would've done with a healthy Shea Ralph. The Tennessee game would've been an interesting one, Tennessee played well in the regional finals (Holdsclaw/Jolly were sensational) so the upset might have happened regardless of Ralph. If UCONN did make it past Tennessee, they would've had no trouble with Notre Dame, and the title match up against either Stanford or ODU would've made for a really interesting game. Both ODU and Stanford were 1 loss teams entering the Final Four and both were stacked (ODU with Penicheiro, Machanguana, Andrade, and Roberts...Stanford with Starbird, Folkl, Nygaard, Wideman, and Scott.) Either of those teams would've given Connecticut a great game. Kinda fun to play the "what if" game.

I play that game alot..... pretty much every March or april

 

[UCONNfan1]

I'm talking about the 2005-06 season...not 2007-08.

Ah my bad. Well I can't really speak to those seasons since Parker was a sophomore Moore was a freshman. And in fairness, I see probably about 1 Tennessee game a year, and less now since they don't play UCONN any more... But obviously I felt pretty strongly that Parker was not the PG her junior or senior seasons... LOL.

 

[bballnut90]

So, now it is the 2nd half of the season? Hornbuckle played 29 games to Parker's 36.

She wasn't the point guard.

Hornbuckle missed 7 games and came off the bench still injured in 4 tournament games...so for roughly the last third of the season (11/36 games) Parker was the point guard.

Edited because I evidently forgot how to spell the work roughly.

 

[huskyrob1]

I'm talking about the 2005-06 season...not 2007-08.

I thought our debate was about the 2007-2008 season and each players stats, position, how heavily the team THAT SEASON relied on Moore vs Parker. So I guess you are saying that the voters in 2007-2008 gave Parker the nod in ball handling over Moore because she was so awesome 2005-2006?

"Yes, she (Moore) was relied upon....but she was not relied upon as much as Parker was for that Tennessee team. Moore was relied upon to carry much of the offensive load on the wing, and she delivered. Parker was relied upon as the offensive distributor, the primary ball handler, the primary option in the paint, and was also relied upon to create her own shot off the dribble. If you want to play the injury game, Parker also was not at 100%, as she went down a couple times with knee problems during the course of the season."

Your words ball, right? My question is WHICH TENNESSEE TEAM????? WHICH SEASON????? 2005-2006 when Moore was in HS??????

PS...I put your quotes in orange

 

[bballnut90]

I thought our debate was about the 2007-2008 season and each players stats, position, how heavily the team THAT SEASON relied on Moore vs Parker. So I guess you are saying that the voters in 2007-2008 gave Parker the nod in ball handling over Moore because she was so awesome 2005-2006?

"Yes, she (Moore) was relied upon....but she was not relied upon as much as Parker was for that Tennessee team. Moore was relied upon to carry much of the offensive load on the wing, and she delivered. Parker was relied upon as the offensive distributor, the primary ball handler, the primary option in the paint, and was also relied upon to create her own shot off the dribble. If you want to play the injury game, Parker also was not at 100%, as she went down a couple times with knee problems during the course of the season."

Your words ball, right? My question is WHICH TENNESSEE TEAM????? WHICH SEASON????? 2005-2006 when Moore was in HS??????

PS...I put your quotes in orange

No need to get worked up...I was talking about Parker's freshman season (2005-06) compared to Moore's freshman season (2007-08.)

 

[doggydaddy]

Hornbuckle missed 7 games and came off the bench still injured in 4 tournament games...so for roughly the last third of the season (11/36 games) Parker was the point guard.

Edited because I evidently forgot how to spell the work roughly.

Memories fade, get alerted by time. But statistics don't change.

Zolman played extended minutes when Hornbuckle went down. And she had 20 more assists over that timeframe. When Hornbuckle came back and played off the bench she still played 25 minutes each game.

The announcers going crazy every time Parker called a play or brought the ball up made it seem like she did it all game long. They still do it today in the WNBA.

You said half the season. I'm sure you believed that.

 

[UCONNfan1]

Memories fade, get alerted by time. But statistics don't change.

Zolman played extended minutes when Hornbuckle went down. And she had 20 more assists over that timeframe. When Hornbuckle came back and played off the bench she still played 25 minutes each game.

The announcers going crazy every time Parker called a play or brought the ball up made it seem like she did it all game long. They still do it today in the WNBA.

You said half the season. I'm sure you believed that.

This is true. Parker can not do it all. But there IS a player who can. Her name is Breanna Stewart. By the end of her sophomore season, I'm betting she is more talented at least in the 1-4 spots than Parker was as a senior. That's probably something we ALL can agree on. However, at this point I'm not willing to predict she will be more talented than Parker at the 5 spot. I think Bree lacks Parker's sheer athleticism at this point and her terrific moves around the basket.

But I do understand this thread was originally about who had the best freshman season. Sadly, Parker was taking a medical redshirt her freshman season, so her stats or contributions her sophomore season are irrelevant to this conversation.

 

[huskyrob1]

This is true. Parker can not do it all. But there IS a player who can. Her name is Breanna Stewart. By the end of her sophomore season, I'm betting she is more talented at least in the 1-4 spots than Parker was as a senior. That's probably something we ALL can agree on. However, at this point I'm not willing to predict she will be more talented than Parker at the 5 spot. I think Bree lacks Parker's sheer athleticism at this point and her terrific moves around the basket.

But I do understand this thread was originally about who had the best freshman season. Sadly, Parker was taking a medical redshirt her freshman season, so her stats or contributions her sophomore season are irrelevant to this conversation.

Stewart might be better now. Yes, not as athletic as Parker, but equal in everything else and light years better in shooting and passing. Especially shooting, as Parker couldn't hit the broad side of barn her first year.

 

[VAUConnFan]

Clarissa Davis at Texas.

You beat me to this one . Clarissa Davis, as a freshman, was the best player on her undefeated national championship Texas team. They beat a an outstanding Southern Cal team that featured three of my all time favorites Cheryl Miller, Cynthia Cooper and Rhonda Windham. Davis went 24 and 14 in the championship game.

 

[VAUConnFan]

The Shea question is interesting to me. Certainly, Uconn was the odds on favorite prior to Shea's injury, and its season ended in disappointment in the regional finals after. The question is whether the loss was due to the loss of Shea's production, or was it due to the way the team, and Geno in particular, responded to her injury. Geno has suggested explicitly it was the latter. And if he's right, where within the lists brought up by this thread does Shea belong?

Greene played 4 years. Her soph., Jun., Sen., and 5th year.
.
EDD played her sophomore, Junior and Senior years, graduating with her class, just like Parker.

It's just that simple. A student's class is determined by enrollment in the school, not by when they set foot first on a basketball court.

I disagree. It is not that simple. A student's class and an athlete's class are often two different things, and for good reason. Based on your definition, how would you have classified Caroline Doty this past year? Or Shea Ralph in 2001?

Kalana Greene played an entire freshman season, an entire sophmore season, an abbreviated 8 game junior season, a full red shirt junior season, and a full senior season which made it possible for her to set the NCAA record for most games played.

Elena Della Donne played four full years of college basketball at the University of Delaware. She also played a year of volleyball.

 

[Alydar]

I disagree. It is not that simple. A student's class and an athlete's class are often two different things, and for good reason. Based on your definition, how would you have classified Caroline Doty this past year? Or Shea Ralph in 2001?

Kalana Greene played an entire freshman season, an entire sophmore season, an abbreviated 8 game junior season, a full red shirt junior season, and a full senior season which made it possible for her to set the NCAA record for most games played.

Elena Della Donne played four full years of college basketball at the University of Delaware. She also played a year of volleyball.

OK, so Greene played as a freshman, sophomore senior and 5th year student. It changes nothing. Students in their 5th year are not seniors, they are 5th year or grad students.