Best baseball player ever?

[McLovin]

You also forgot to mention the following:
Pitchers were pitching around Ohtani towards later second half of the season in 2022

Lol. Pitching around him?

Ohtani had 14 IBB. Judge had 19 IBB.

Ohtani walked 72 times. Judge walked 111 times.

Judge was pitched around way more than Ohtani was and Judge was still able to put up numbers that lapped him offensively.

 

[willie99]

Walter Johnson
Ted Williams
Ty Cobb
Willie Mays

Guys have to play at least 10 years to even be considered

Should be the Walter Johnson award, not Cy Young

 

[WestCoastHusky]

Lol. Pitching around him?

Ohtani had 14 IBB. Judge had 19 IBB.

Ohtani walked 72 times. Judge walked 111 times.

Judge was pitched around way more than Ohtani was and Judge was still able to put up numbers that lapped him offensively.

You obviously don't watch Angels games. I have seen almost every single game.

Ohtani was playing one of the worst line ups for a long stretch. At one point, hitters 5 through 9 were the worst in MLB history statically speaking. Ohtani had no protection, and he has seen very few balls to hit especially the second half of the second. Put Ohtani in Judge's position on the Yankees playing at Yankee stadium, with juices balls, and you gonna tell me he will only hit 35 HRs with a straight face? He is also Garrett Cole in addition being Judge.

No doubt Judge had a great year, but the most valuable player on a team last year was Ohtani in the MLB who also finished 4tb in Cy Young voting which you conveniently left out.

If Shohei plays 2 way, he should be given the MVP award every single year. There simply isn't any player more valuable in MLB.

 

[Chin Diesel]

You're selling Judge short here, he's a tremendous all around player and as far as hitting home runs you could make a case he's the best ever at doing it in his short career. The only thing slowing his career down has been injuries.

Ohtani is the best guy going in sports and something we've never seen before. He could be given the MVP every single season he's healthy but the Judge conspiracy talk is a bit out there. He was unreal last season and did something that hasn't been done in 60+ years in the AL and has never been done in the history of baseball outside of the known few steroid guys.

Nah. He's in his 30's and he had a historical season but he's no longer elite in the outfield. He's hitting homers or he's hobbling to 1st base.

No need to diminish what he did last season. He hit a bunch of HR's. Good for him.

 

[McLovin]

You obviously don't watch Angels games. I have seen almost every single game.

Ohtani was playing one of the worst line ups for a long stretch. At one point, hitters 5 through 9 were the worst in MLB history statically speaking. Ohtani had no protection, and he has seen very few balls to hit especially the second half of the second. Put Ohtani in Judge's position on the Yankees playing at Yankee stadium, with juices balls, and you gonna tell me he will only hit 35 HRs with a straight face? He is also Garrett Cole in addition being Judge.

No doubt Judge had a great year, but the most valuable player on a team last year was Ohtani in the MLB who also finished 4tb in Cy Young voting which you conveniently left out.

If Shohei plays 2 way, he should be given the MVP award every single year. There simply isn't any player more valuable in MLB.

So valuable his team finished 4th in their division lmao.
Look at the lineup Judge carried to 1st place. Not exactly a lineup full of all stars (all star names, sure, but not all star seasons last year).

Hicks, Gallo and IKF wasn’t exactly murders row at the bottom half of the Ya Kees lineup either…

 

[superjohn]

Nah. He's in his 30's and he had a historical season but he's no longer elite in the outfield. He's hitting homers or he's hobbling to 1st base.

No need to diminish what he did last season. He hit a bunch of HR's. Good for him.

This is poor trolling.

 

[McLovin]

Nah. He's in his 30's and he had a historical season but he's no longer elite in the outfield. He's hitting homers or he's hobbling to 1st base.

No need to diminish what he did last season. He hit a bunch of HR's. Good for him.

He also hit .311 (nearly won the triple crown). Hitting 62 HR and batting over .300 is pretty insane. He wasn’t “home run or bust”.

 

[Deleted at users request]

A little over $3K if it was +250 every game, you have to account for the $1400 you'd lose from all the games he didn't hit a HR

He probably had +300 odds at the start of June. I got the stat from a tweet so I don’t know if they took into account the lost money or not. He’s still at +240 tonight on FD after this insane run he’s on.

My mostly daily play has been Elly De La Cruz steals (when facing righties) and Ohtani HRs. Been working out okay so far. Betting MLB has been far easier than Basketball or Football.

 

[FfldCntyFan]

It was a joke when they gave the MVP to Judge over Ohtani much like Embiid over Jokic this year in the NBA. It was a media campaign by the NYC media for Judge.

Had Ohtani grown up in America this never happens. Someone would have lushed towards hitter or pitcher by the middle of his time on high school.

The Yankees have made it painfully clear how limited of a team they are when Judge is not in the lineup.

Ohtani has played his entire MLB career with a teammate who until recently (with the accomplishments of AJ and SO) had been viewed as a generational talent and clearly the best player in the game yet had never made the playoffs. This is with the fact that until this season, the schedule was skewed heavily towards division games and Judge played in a far more competitive division than Ohtani did.

Take Judge off the Yankees in 2022 and they aren't much different than the Angels would have been without Ohtani. He absolutely deserved the MVP last season.

 

[FfldCntyFan]

Nah. He's in his 30's and he had a historical season but he's no longer elite in the outfield. He's hitting homers or he's hobbling to 1st base.

No need to diminish what he did last season. He hit a bunch of HR's. Good for him.

He's no longer elite in the outfield? Have you watched any games this season? Did you see the play that led to his current stint on the DL?

 

[WestCoastHusky]

Once again, there is so much evidence that MLB helped Judge and the Yankees last year with the juiced ball 2022. Stastics don't lie no matter how much MLB tried to bury the story. Pitchers from other teams noticed this as well.

Did Aaron Judge's historic 2022 season benefit from 'juiced' balls?

New York Yankees slugger Aaron Judge may have benefitted from a disproportionate amount of hitter-friendly baseballs while setting the American League's single-season home run mark in 2022.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[WestCoastHusky]

The Yankees have made it painfully clear how limited of a team they are when Judge is not in the lineup.

Ohtani has played his entire MLB career with a teammate who until recently (with the accomplishments of AJ and SO) had been viewed as a generational talent and clearly the best player in the game yet had never made the playoffs. This is with the fact that until this season, the schedule was skewed heavily towards division games and Judge played in a far more competitive division than Ohtani did.

Take Judge off the Yankees in 2022 and they aren't much different than the Angels would have been without Ohtani. He absolutely deserved the MVP last season.

Yeah AL West was so bad that two teams made the playoff while one of them won the World Series.

I know this is an UConn board and there are many Yankees fans, but please take that rosy East Coast glasses off once in a while.

 

[WestCoastHusky]

So valuable his team finished 4th in their division lmao.
Look at the lineup Judge carried to 1st place. Not exactly a lineup full of all stars (all star names, sure, but not all star seasons last year).

Hicks, Gallo and IKF wasn’t exactly murders row at the bottom half of the Ya Kees lineup either…
View attachment 89381

I don't have the time to post Angels line up from 2022 cause many of these players no longer are playing in the MLB.

Also, two of the Angels stars Rendon and Trout were out majority of the year. Shohei literally carried the team on his back by himself with no protection anywhere in the lineup. There were long stretches where Angels' only wins were when he pitched and batted. There was a game where he had 8 RBIs and Angels still lost.

Judge is a great player, but he is no where close being in the same league as Ohtani. It is sad many Yankee fans can't see the obvious.

 

[superjohn]

Yeah AL West was so bad that two teams made the playoff while one of them won the World Series.

I know this is an UConn board and there are many Yankees fans, but please take that rosy East Coast glasses off once in a while.

You don't think the AL East was a far more competitive division than the AL West?

 

[WestCoastHusky]

You don't think the AL East was a far more competitive division than the AL West?

AL East was a great division, and it was balanced. However, how can you say it with a straight face that AL West is so horrible when they had Houston Astros, who is by far the best team in MLB last year? Did Yankee fans forget so quickly that the Astros put the woodshed to the Yankees in the playoff?

For the record, Ohtani was like 4-1 against the Astros when he pitched. He dominated that super lineup.

 

[Chin Diesel]

This is poor trolling.

He also hit .311 (nearly won the triple crown). Hitting 62 HR and batting over .300 is pretty insane. He wasn’t “home run or bust”.

Ted Williams twice won the triple crown and didn't get the MVP.

Not going to sneeze at .311. Especially with BA having been deemphasized. That's a heckuva an accomplishment.

I realize it's impossible to compare eras directly. Ball and bats have changed, parks have gotten smaller, pitchers are throwing harder and are more specialists. I really don't trust any stastistic that thinks it has correctly accounted for all the variables over time.

Judge had a great season last year. Ohtani's was better.

 

[Chin Diesel]

I'll add this and I think I'm done becaue I'm really close to 100% certain no one is changing their opinion on this.

For me, as someone who started in the late 70's following baseball, It's Griffey Jr, Pujols and Frank Thomas who were the best their first 10 years. Vlad Guerrero and Thomas were the best two pure power hitters I ever saw. I see them and think that's what old beezun's watched with Gherig and Williams. Just ridiculous across the board numbers.

I won't get in to the steroid debate but ARod, Soza, McGwire and Bonds won't ever be a part of my conversation when talking best HR hitters. Anyone else is free to discuss them as they wish.

 

[WestCoastHusky]

Ted Williams twice won the triple crown and didn't get the MVP.

Not going to sneeze at .311. Especially with BA having been deemphasized. That's a heckuva an accomplishment.

I realize it's impossible to compare eras directly. Ball and bats have changed, parks have gotten smaller, pitchers are throwing harder and are more specialists. I really don't trust any stastistic that thinks it has correctly accounted for all the variables over time.

Judge had a great season last year. Ohtani's was better.

People that like to compare HR numbers forget that Ohtani was 15-9 with 2.33 ERA last year. He also finished 4th in Cy Young voting.

 

[superjohn]

I'll add this and I think I'm done becaue I'm really close to 100% certain no one is changing their opinion on this.

For me, as someone who started in the late 70's following baseball, It's Griffey Jr, Pujols and Frank Thomas who were the best their first 10 years. Vlad Guerrero and Thomas were the best two pure power hitters I ever saw. I see them and think that's what old beezun's watched with Gherig and Williams. Just ridiculous across the board numbers.

I won't get in to the steroid debate but ARod, Soza, McGwire and Bonds won't ever be a part of my conversation when talking best HR hitters. Anyone else is free to discuss them as they wish.

You thought Frank Thomas was better than Bonds before steroids.

Go sit in the corner.

 

[superjohn]

AL East was a great division, and it was balanced. However, how can you say it with a straight face that AL West is so horrible when they had Houston Astros, who is by far the best team in MLB last year? Did Yankee fans forget so quickly that the Astros put the woodshed to the Yankees in the playoff?

For the record, Ohtani was like 4-1 against the Astros when he pitched. He dominated that super lineup.

I don't think anyone said the AL West is so horrible, what was said is the AL East was a far more competitive division than the AL West.

 

[WestCoastHusky]

I don't think anyone said the AL West is so horrible, what was said is the AL East was a far more competitive division than the AL West.

Your losses add up pretty quickly within division when you have to play Astros so many damn times. I like this year's more balanced MLB schedule far far far more better.

 

[McLovin]

Your losses add up pretty quickly within division when you have to play Astros so many damn times. I like this year's more balanced MLB schedule far far far more better.

And there are just as many win opportunities when you have a 100 loss Oakland team in the division…

 

[Chin Diesel]

You thought Frank Thomas was better than Bonds before steroids.

Go sit in the corner.

Age 32 and younger and Thomas' numbers for average and power are much better.

Not even close.

Age 32 is where Thomas hit the wall. Griffey Jr, hit it after age 30. Barry juiced up.

 

[FfldCntyFan]

Yeah AL West was so bad that two teams made the playoff while one of them won the World Series.

I know this is an UConn board and there are many Yankees fans, but please take that rosy East Coast glasses off once in a while.

Please compare top to bottom AL west vs AL east.

Three AL east teams made the playoffs, four finished above .500 and the team that finished fifth had a better record than the team that finished third in the AL west. All while playing a schedule skewed to play more division games (nobody in the AL east had the luxury of a team like the 102 loss Athletics in the division).

You may want to take the west coast glasses off. You have an excellent team (best in baseball) and a team that would have struggled to finish .500 in any other division. After that, a ton of not a whole lot. The Mariners would have finished behind the Red Sox if they both played identical schedules last season.

 

[storrsroars]

Age 32 and younger and Thomas' numbers for average and power are much better.

Not even close.

Age 32 is where Thomas hit the wall. Griffey Jr, hit it after age 30. Barry juiced up.

We're talking "best baseball player", which includes speed and defense.

Counting from age 23-30 to account for only full seasons (Bonds started at 21, Thomas at 22), here's the comparable fWAR:
Thomas - 49.3
Bonds - 64.0

Bonds was already a HoFer at 30 (and the #s don't include another 8.6 WAR from his age 21-22 seasons). It's basically accepted that Bonds didn't start juicing until 1999, his age 34 season. From ages 21-33 he achieved 99.2 WAR without PEDs. Thomas's entire career was 72 WAR.

As far as your power numbers, by age 30, Thomas had 286 HRs to Bonds' 292. Thomas had a better BA and OPS.

 

[superjohn]

Age 32 and younger and Thomas' numbers for average and power are much better.

Not even close.

Age 32 is where Thomas hit the wall. Griffey Jr, hit it after age 30. Barry juiced up.

You can certainly make the argument Frank Thomas was an even better hitter than Bonds before he took steroids but The Big Hurt was an elite 1 tool player, Bonds was an elite 5 tool player. Frank Thomas was never a better baseball player than Barry Bonds.

As we know Judge was a way better hitter than Ohtani last season.

 

[WestCoastHusky]

Please compare top to bottom AL west vs AL east.

Three AL east teams made the playoffs, four finished above .500 and the team that finished fifth had a better record than the team that finished third in the AL west. All while playing a schedule skewed to play more division games (nobody in the AL east had the luxury of a team like the 102 loss Athletics in the division).

You may want to take the west coast glasses off. You have an excellent team (best in baseball) and a team that would have struggled to finish .500 in any other division. After that, a ton of not a whole lot. The Mariners would have finished behind the Red Sox if they both played identical schedules last season.

It won't make one lick of difference what division you put Ohtani in, and he would have performed back in 2022.,

Ohtani's batting number would looked way better if he had better production around him in the battering lineup. Judge had that while Ohtani played with literally an AAA team with most of his teammates from last year no longer in MLB. Shohei said it himself that second half of 2022 he just wasn't getting pitches to hit. Pitchers just avoided him in the second half of 2022. There is a reason this year's Angels team is mostly new players.

All this comparisons still doesn't change the fact that Ohtani is way better talent and player than judge in every sense of the word. It is not even comparable, and Aaron Judge himself stated who the best player is in the MLB.

Aaron Judge had a great 2022 year, but we have seen player perfoming like him in the past. We have never seen anything like Shohei Ohtani, and not even Babe Ruth himself is comparable. Shohei Ohtani is truly the best player MLB has even seen in its entire history. We baseball fans are lucky enough to witnessing living history every time he steps on the field.

 

[husky8273]

Willie Mays

 

[FfldCntyFan]

It won't make one lick of difference what division you put Ohtani in, and he would have performed back in 2022.,

Ohtani's batting number would looked way better if he had better production around him in the battering lineup. Judge had that while Ohtani played with literally an AAA team with most of his teammates from last year no longer in MLB. Shohei said it himself that second half of 2022 he just wasn't getting pitches to hit. Pitchers just avoided him in the second half of 2022. There is a reason this year's Angels team is mostly new players.

All this comparisons still doesn't change the fact that Ohtani is way better talent and player than judge in every sense of the word. It is not even comparable, and Aaron Judge himself stated who the best player is in the MLB.

Aaron Judge had a great 2022 year, but we have seen player perfoming like him in the past. We have never seen anything like Shohei Ohtani, and not even Babe Ruth himself is comparable. Shohei Ohtani is truly the best player MLB has even seen in its entire history. We baseball fans are lucky enough to witnessing living history every time he steps on the field.

Yeah, keep telling yourself that.


I love the "Mike Trout is a AAA talent" implication in your statement. It may be the best hot take ever.

 

[WhereistheDove?]

I love the "Mike Trout is a AAA talent" implication in your statement. It may be the best hot take ever.

In no way was that the implication and you know it.