OT: Basketball's Fake Fundamentals

[husky429]

2 hand closeouts on jump shooters was so dumb, but it was taught as a core defensive fundamental.

It would take 6 hours to tell you how many times my coaches screamed at me to use squeaky feet with both hands up. Every kid rolled their eyes at coach. Shoot, I was doing that crap in college and absolutely NO ONE did it in a game.

 

[HuskyHawk]

I'm bored today and sick of the downers on this board, so I figured I'd try to get the 'Yard riled up. I believe that coaches (even very successful coaches) teach some complete and utter garbage to players. This comes from a post @Jaydumo20 put up a few weeks ago in the pro spots board that I responded to. These are some of the things I think are malarkey, and a lot of them come from this author.

- Two-handed chest passes/bounce passes should not be practiced nearly as much as they are (this is mostly for youth coaches).

- Telling kids to "use your legs!" when they shoot (especially short). Shots come from the arms.

Tell me you've never coached 4th and 5th grade girls without telling me you haven't. Most of them can't reach the rim.

Edit: one of the more memorable things was scrimmaging against the boys team. Our team was actually taller, but the boys were so much stronger, even at that age.

 

[Jaydumo20]

I love this @husky429. Especially the no box out. That is the one getting the most flak because I think that it has been drilled to the point of saturation. But i think you're right.

 

[Jaydumo20]

And the 100 FT thing. This is the biggest. Ever since Malcolm gladwell's 10,000 hours thing came out people swear by the quantity over quality. The 2-10 tired free throws is probably the best example of practice "smarter" that I've ever heard. My youth bball days are long gone but I bet that coaches would argue this, even though it makes complete sense.

 

[husky429]

And the 100 FT thing. This is the biggest. Ever since Malcolm gladwell's 10,000 hours thing came out people swear by the quantity over quality. The 2-10 tired free throws is probably the best example of practice "smarter" that I've ever heard. My youth bball days are long gone but I bet that coaches would argue this, even though it makes complete sense.

Gladwell always struck me as someone who writes easily digestable mumbo jumbo. Never put a lot of stock into what he says. I also tend to err on the side of being a contrarian , which might have something to do with it, lol.

I love this @husky429. Especially the no box out. That is the one getting the most flak because I think that it has been drilled to the point of saturation. But i think you're right.

I think this is also probably player and circumstance specific. Telling Andre to box out is probably futile--he just needs to hit people and get the damn ball. Same with Clingan... get the ball.

Karaban? Definitely needs a traditional box out near the hoop and should be a little more selective with boxouts even on the perimeter.

I don't love one-size-fits-all when it comes to basketball. There's a lot of ways to be a good basketball player.

 

[Chantry1101]

I really like Brian McCormick. Not because he's always right. The great thing about him is he makes you think. Most coaches do and teach dumb things that if they thought about it, they'd do better.
Reading his stuff made me a better coach and a better program director.
He makes you think about it and watch how stuff actually happens in games and coach to what actually happens, not to what coaches have been teaching for decades.

 

[Chantry1101]

Gladwell always struck me as someone who writes easily digestable mumbo jumbo. Never put a lot of stock into what he says. I also tend to err on the side of being a contrarian , which might have something to do with it, lol.



I think this is also probably player and circumstance specific. Telling Andre to box out is probably futile--he just needs to hit people and get the damn ball. Same with Clingan... get the ball.

Karaban? Definitely needs a traditional box out near the hoop and should be a little more selective with boxouts even on the perimeter.

I don't love one-size-fits-all when it comes to basketball. There's a lot of ways to be a good basketball player.

Gladwell is pop science - the stuff he wrote about youth basketball and pressing is just silly and clueless.

I've never seen a team play and thought "they box out too much".
Good box out technique is especially important if you're undersized or less athletic opponents.
I'd agree it's taught too much too young - the delayed gratification part of it is something few kids will get until they're 14+
I've seen 4th grade coaches work on boxing out
AND nothing worse than coaches, parents etc yelling "BOX OUT" AFTER the other team gets an offensive rebound
great coachhing telling players what they should have done AFTER they should have done it

 

[nelsonmuntz]

I really agree on not boxing out away from the basket, and I have issues even boxing out near the basket in an era with so many 3’s. It is too easy to pin a rebounder under the basket as the ball sails over his or her head. Players should get position in an area and then crash to the ball.

 

[husky429]

I really like Brian McCormick. Not because he's always right. The great thing about him is he makes you think. Most coaches do and teach dumb things that if they thought about it, they'd do better.
Reading his stuff made me a better coach and a better program director.
He makes you think about it and watch how stuff actually happens in games and coach to what actually happens, not to what coaches have been teaching for decades.

Agreed. The mindset of re-examining what we thought were best-practices is key. I don't expect anyone to agree with everything I say. That's not the point. Every player and every team has different needs. But if you're mindlessly going through the motions of what you were taught years ago, you aren't doing it right.

It really boils down to whether or not you can provide a "why"... if there's no why for a specific skill, drill, etc. you probably should rethink some things. I spent way too much time coaching doing what I was taught instead of what was best for my kids.

 

[Lefty2one]

Two of my biggest pet peeves from yesteryear, not sure if they're still taught...

1) Your elbow should be directly under the ball. This is utter nonsense; nearly every great shooter has their elbow at least slightly out. What's far more important is having a relaxed, non-tense body when shooting. I used to force my elbow in, causing shoulder tension that would lead to a lot of short shots. Once I stopped caring about how tight my elbow I was I became a significantly more consistent and better shooter.

2) On jumpers, that you should land exactly where you took off from (i.e. jump straight up and down). "Sway" and a slight jump forward is the way to go.

3) Toes pointed at the rim. As with #1, it causes tension in your shoulder and hips. Slightly angle your feet.


The three-man weave is fine as a warm-up drill. That's all we used it for in college. Get the blood flowing.

 

[Icehawk]

Not quite sure what you mean.

Generally speaking, I'm not a guy who is going to blame players for not trying hard--I think our guys are always trying hard and it annoys me to no end when people accuse our players of being lazy. I do think we over-teach defensive rebounding technique as a whole in basketball. And I do think that rebounding is instinct and heart more than anything.

Rebounding is bunch of things including positioning, reading the ball, height, etc. 90% heart seems like something we just say when we're not sure what else to say.

 

[Excalibur]

Besides the obvious ones -- two-handed, no-jump closeouts, anything that is expressed as a hard and fast rule is dumb.

Boxing out -- yeah, it's less useful as you get further away from the basket, but I still want my guys getting in the way of a player that's crashing the offensive boards from the perimeter. Best advice is bump him and then go get the ball. As for not boxing out on the interior -- there is a reason why zones lead to poor rebounding. When everyone has someone to check, it's easier to keep a team off of the boards. Getting the offensive player on your hip/backside is the best way to gain an advantage in positioning without fouling. It's not just about getting to the spot, it's about keeping the other guy from doing the same.

Shooting free throws in bulk is fine for teaching muscle memory, but I agree that in a team practice setting it's far more useful to shoot fewer shots more often.

The idea that the legs aren't involved in the shot is just dumb. "Use your legs more" is really code for saying your mechanics are breaking down because you're tired.

What position does a shot fake come from? Case closed. The "triple threat" position was never meant to be something slow and mechanical.

Index finger vs. middle finger has evolved over time. It moved to the index finger as the mechanics of the release changed.

 

[husky429]

Two of my biggest pet peeves from yesteryear, not sure if they're still taught...

1) Your elbow should be directly under the ball. This is utter nonsense; nearly every great shooter has their elbow at least slightly out. What's far more important is having a relaxed, non-tense body when shooting. I used to force my elbow in, causing shoulder tension that would lead to a lot of short shots. Once I stopped caring about how tight my elbow I was I became a significantly more consistent and better shooter.

2) On jumpers, that you should land exactly where you took off from (i.e. jump straight up and down). "Sway" and a slight jump forward is the way to go.

3) Toes pointed at the rim. As with #1, it causes tension in your shoulder and hips. Slightly angle your feet.


The three-man weave is fine as a warm-up drill. That's all we used it for in college. Get the blood flowing.

Agree on most of this. I am a toe at the rim kind of guy, but I'm also not going to teach someone NOT to do it if it's already their habit. I would rarely want to drastically change someone's shot unless it's super broken. That will just kill their confidence.

Mike Dunn is a great shooting coach I follow on socials--has a bunch of interesting thoughts on maximizing your shooting potential.

 

[husky429]

Rebounding is bunch of things including positioning, reading the ball, height, etc. 90% heart seems like something we just say when we're not sure what else to say.

I agree with that the vast majority of the time. I don't with rebounding. I think you really just need to be willing to hit and get hit, and relentlessly pursue the ball.

That doesn't mean anyone can average 8rpg... height, strength, and ability to read the ball aren't going to change in an afternoon. But you maximize your rebounding potential with practice and heart--not box outs.

Just my 2c... doesn't mean I'm right.

 

[dtrumpet]

Something that caught my eye in the bullets you provided re: 100 FTs vs shooting 2-10 in practice when you're tired.. As a non-coach and casual fan.. It would seem that a solid/consistent pre-shot routine that reinforces muscle memory and rhythm ..visualization..proper breathing.. and let it go are a good thing.. Which camp are you in??

Would like to pose a question re: one of our guys.. Yarders seem to be banging on Donovan re: his FT shooting. To my eye..For a Big.. He's got a nice stroke/nice rhythm ..Maybe rushing just a little.But his results aren't great.. How would you improve on that in-season? Would be nice to see him eventually approach Adama type percentages as he matures. This is not a dump on Donovan deal.. Strictly curious on how you would approach this challenge from a coaching/skill improvement perspective.

Clingan's FT% has gotten worse as the season has gone on. Quick stats check shows 29/51 through the Marquette game and 4/12 since. it seems like his misses aren't close anymore and that his shot has flattened out. Hope he gets back to the almost 60% of early season.

 

[Umami Zen]

Rodman used to study spin and rotation of teammates and opponents shooting styles.. Would attempt to get himself in position for a rebound --prior to a shot-- based on who was shooting and what their tendencies were re: spin/rotation.. For all of his eccentricities.. He was a student of the game when he was locked in..

 

[husky429]

Rodman used to study spin and rotation of teammates and opponents shooting styles.. Would attempt to get himself in position for a rebound --prior to a shot-- based on who was shooting and what their tendencies were re: spin/rotation.. For all of his eccentricities.. He was a student of the game when he was locked in..

100% agreed. That is often part of the scout at higher levels, but I'm not so sure coaches have the time or resources to do that at the college level.

 

[Deleted at users request]

Rebounding is bunch of things including positioning, reading the ball, height, etc. 90% heart seems like something we just say when we're not sure what else to say.

It takes a lot of heart to consistently box out. Some are too lazy to do that every possession.

Away from the rim boxing out is whatever yeah, but it’s definitely necessary close to the rim. Back when I played we had this guy on my team who had a crazy motor and was a monster on the boards who played the same position I did. Coach basically made me always put a body on him to box him out or I would have to run. Once it became 2nd nature to just get a body on someone to keep them from getting boards my rebounding became so much better.

Even if you’re a crazy athlete boxing out should be important because it just makes rebounding easier.

 

[husky429]

I'm taking the bait for a rare 2 post week. I agree with most of this with a couple of contingencies.

My teams have given up too many rebounds and I've gotten too many offensive rebounds myself as a guard flying in unchecked. Every offensive player's momentum and read on a rebound needs to be at least checked to confirm they are bailing out on getting an offensive rebound. Box out drills are dumb and a waste of valuable practice time. It takes 5 minutes to teach 2nd graders how to box out. It's getting all levels applying it in live situations that is hard. It needs to be a focus of every live drill to build a habit. Single focus drills don't help that.

The way 99% of coaches do 3 man weave it is the most useless garbage ever done in a practice. If it's done as a fast break drill getting a layup in 3 passes or less with the ball never going backwards and dribbling allowed to keep forward progress, it can be valuable in helping to learn to run the floor making quick decisions that can apply depending on what your break and secondary look like.

If a kid is shooting stiff legged start to finish you do need to get them to engage their legs. Power comes from the timing of transfer from the legs, not necessarily from how much they engage but there needs to be some transfer at release. I don't know any good shooters who don't engage their legs at all.

Form shooting from 3-5 feet can add value depending on what you are trying to fix. Shooting that close can help build a high finish which is my preference because it leads to a more consistent release point. Once that's attained, I'm half way between starting around 8 feet then moving back in 2/3 foot increments at a set number of makes. One handed can also help at the youth level break a two handed habit. High School and beyond should be with a guide hand.

Apologies--I overlooked your response.

I agree on just about everything you posted here. What you're referring to with rebounding is what I call "hit and get" rebounding. Hit someone so you're closer to the ball, and go get it. Most of the rebounding drills I like are in semi-live or live situations where players need to react to the ball going up in real time.

Also agree on the three-man weave. I like to use a 2-3 pass weave as a full-court transition drill. Instead of a weave, I would have my big man (when I had one) serve as a rim runner instead.

Legs are an important part of the shot. The part I didn't explain well is that what I mean is that you use your legs, but using your legs MORE to shoot farther is bad basketball... the difference between a 20 foot and a 28 foot jumper should come from the arms.

Also agree with your last paragraph... I coached HS and AAU ball, so any kind of 3-5 foot shot wouldn't have been particularly useful for my guys. I'll defer to the youth coaches on that.

 

[willie99]

I think my avatar, the GOAT, disagrees with you on several points, like

Running
Boxing out
Using your legs

the biggest problem in rebounding is technique, not heart

 

[husky429]

I think my avatar, the GOAT, disagrees with you on several points, like

Running
Boxing out
Using your legs

the biggest problem in rebounding is technique, not heart

Calhoun was dead wrong on running distance for basketball conditioning. There really isn't even much room for debate in this one. A mountain of aports science is behind it.

Boxing out and using your legs is debatable--a fun debate at that. I'm curious what Calhoun would think now that the game has changed so much. His biggest strength (imo) was adaptability and the game has changed a lot.

I just don't agree with using your legs. I think it comes from people's ignorance of how biomechanics works. Watch the best shooters in the world. They don't just higher when they want to shoot farther... they use their arms and (gasp) a dip. I'm not unwilling to be re-convinced on this one though.

...

Rebounding is 90% height, strength and instinct. Let's be realistic. Andre Drummond doesn't box out and is possibly the best rebounder on the planet. Certainly was 4 years ago. Great guards do not box out outside of the paint. Of that I am certain.

I am in favor of a post box out... most people are. I encourage you to watch a dozen college basketball games and see how often guards box out on the perimeter. The answer is rarely.

Tom Moore taught me the "hit and get" strategy for the perimeter and I love it. Your job is not to box out. It's to be closer to the ball than your opponent and get the ball. Sometimes that means ignore your man and jump to the ball. Other times than means hitting your man out of the way and pursuing the ball--hence "hit and get"

 

[Chantry1101]

Agreed. The mindset of re-examining what we thought were best-practices is key. I don't expect anyone to agree with everything I say. That's not the point. Every player and every team has different needs. But if you're mindlessly going through the motions of what you were taught years ago, you aren't doing it right.

It really boils down to whether or not you can provide a "why"... if there's no why for a specific skill, drill, etc. you probably should rethink some things. I spent way too much time coaching doing what I was taught instead of what was best for my kids.

Exactly! I used to want to coach like the guys who coached me. Thanks to McCormick and some others, I wanted to be BETTER than the guys who coached me.

It helped that I watched old-school coaches run 3-man weave for 15 minutes a practice on my oldest son's first travel basketball team. First practice, they did this, then went right into learning set plays, in 5th-grade. Brutal.

 

[husky429]

Exactly! I used to want to coach like the guys who coached me. Thanks to McCormick and some others, I wanted to be BETTER than the guys who coached me.

It helped that I watched old-school coaches run 3-man weave for 15 minutes a practice on my oldest son's first travel basketball team. First practice, they did this, then went right into learning set plays, in 5th-grade. Brutal.

Learning set plays that much in 5th-grade is tragic man. I think it's fair to learn a couple sets at that age just to get experience... but I'd much rather see a read and react-ish offense. Free flowing with just enough rules to keep the kids spaced out

 

[Deleted at users request]

Exactly! I used to want to coach like the guys who coached me. Thanks to McCormick and some others, I wanted to be BETTER than the guys who coached me.

It helped that I watched old-school coaches run 3-man weave for 15 minutes a practice on my oldest son's first travel basketball team. First practice, they did this, then went right into learning set plays, in 5th-grade. Brutal.

3 man weave by itself is whatever. But doing a 3 man weave drill into a 2 on 1 fast break is a pretty good drill. That or the Olympic shooting drill which is another form of the 3 man weave.

 

[jake14mw]

Learning set plays that much in 5th-grade is tragic man. I think it's fair to learn a couple sets at that age just to get experience... but I'd much rather see a read and react-ish offense. Free flowing with just enough rules to keep the kids spaced out

Exactly. Getting 5th graders to run your "Carolina" play correctly doesn't help their basketball development AT ALL.