OT: Baseball HOF

[boog204]

No need to apologize. One of the reasons I come here is for the thoughtful, intelligent debate by people who actually know their sports.

Is Jim Rice a HOF in your opinion? I just ask because the guys were teammates who played most of their career together and there stats are very similar. Now Rice hit the ball as hard as anyone I ever saw and how a few monster years, but in the end, his total stats are very similar to Evans. Rice has a higher career average and slugging. But Evans has a combined runs scored/RBI total over 100 more than Rice.
Not that you are, but it irks me when I see a sports writer argue for a guy like Omar Vizquel. Yes he has 3 more gold gloves than Evans and had over 400 SBs, but in the end he still scored less runs than Evans and had over 500 RBIs less than Dewey. For me Runs + RBIs is the best way to gage offensive production. I get he wasn't the most feared, but he was in lineups with Rice, Yaz, Armas, Boggs, Lansford, Fisk, Lynn, Greenwell, Burks and only 3 players hit more homeruns than he did for the 1980s... Mike Schmidt, Dale Murphy, Eddie Murray. I get the Murphy's stats are mostly similar, again, except for RBI and Run total where Evans has around a 400+ differential.

I agree that some guys have got in that just didn't really deserve it. Can't change that. But if they are in, then there are a few guys who should be in with them. Either keep all that guys at/about that level out or put them all in. It just seems very arbitrary to me.

I think Rice is acceptable because even though their #'s are similar, Rice was the more impactful player. At least from the offensive side. Eight AS games, six top-five MVP seasons, an MVP. He hung on one year too long, which dropped him below .300 for the career. He's still marginal, but I think there was definitely a period of time where he was viewed as one of the absolute best players in baseball, and from 75-86 every year is either very good or great.

Murphy is another interesting one. For about five years or six years, he was absolutely one of the best players in baseball. Two MVPs (I think), gold gloves, etc. Basically, 80, 82-85, and juiced ball 87. But then he has ten+ years of being pretty mediocre. He fits in the Mattingly camp of being great for a short period of time and then...

You can't compare Vizquel to Evans. Not a fair comp. You can compare Vizquel to Ozzie. Ozzie was the better defender (and better human... it matters. Vizquel is a scumbag.) Vizquel compiled a lot of hits and played forever. He's not a HOF'er in my mind. Compare Evans to guys like Abreu, Reggie Smith, Luis Gonz (steroids, I know), Torii Hunter...

Abreu: 60WAR, 2470hits, 288hrs, 870ops, 2AS, 1GG
Smith: 65WAR, 2020 hits, 314hrs, 855ops, 7AS, 1GG
Evans: 67WAR, 2446 hits, 385hrs, 840ops, 3AS, 8GG

Baines: 39WAR, 2886, 384hrs, 820ops, 6AS

I don't think any of the four are HOF worthy in my book. Evans was the superior defender, and then gives him the WAR advantage despite having the lowest OPS of the three. Then again, if Baines is in, then Abreu, Smith, Evans, Lofton, Torii Hunter, hell, even Bernie should be in.

 

[Deepster]

Do you really need to argue past this?

Bonds - 7 time MVP, all time home run leader
Rose - All time hits leader
Clemens - 7 time Cy Young

And Harold Baines is in.

The Hall has no validity.

 

[Alum86]

I'm curious as to where Willie Mays' metrics would have been if he had retired at 35 years old as Jones did.

I only saw Mays from when he was ~38-39 years old forward, and while he still had some pretty good seasons (until the Giants accepted it was over and traded him to the Mets), he obviously was no longer more than an adequate outfielder in his late 30's and less than that in his 40's.

I'm not sure that the data you are referencing is fully an apples to apples comparison.

Good lord, poor Willie when he was on the Mets. Truly sad to watch. Queens certainly was a nursing home in the ‘70s and early ‘80s with past their primers like Foster and Lolich.
That said, If Jones is in, Dewey should be too.

 

[ihatepants]

Beltran getting in just proves that no one cares about the Astros cheating scandal anymore after their slap on the wrist. Him getting in over Bonds, Sosa, McGuire, Manny and ARod is a joke.

Beltran was literally the only named player in the report about the entire trash can banging scandal and was seen as the mastermind of it and it directly benefited them in winning a World Series.

 

[Spaceman213J]

Do you really need to argue past this?

Bonds - 7 time MVP, all time home run leader
Rose - All time hits leader
Clemens - 7 time Cy Young

And Harold Baines is in.

The Hall has no validity.

I have on problem with the exclusion of Bonds, Clemens & the steroid group. They were grown men who knew what they were doing was wrong and they hurt their peers: whether is by having inflated stats or the suspicion of use for a few, even if they weren't named. I look at a guy like Jeff Bagwell, who has never been named in a report, failed a drug test and in the eyes of some was guilty by suspicion based on when and with who he played. The guy looked like a monster, but he was also kind of the pioneer of some of modern weight lifting that players do.
Rose's lifetime is up. I don't have a problem with him and Shoeless Joe getting in. I was not a proponent of Rose getting in before because while he bet on his own team, it is a very slippery slope that MLB just needs to stay away from. Look at some of the stories coming out of the NBA and NCAA right now.

My main point is that if Baines is in, then there are about half dozen to dozen other guys who should be in, too. Evans is among those. Again, if he put up those numbers in less years, it sounds like he would be in, but longevity is supposed to be a good thing.

Another guy I look at is Edgar Martinez. He clearly only impacted one side of the game. He hit for a high average, but again Evans has more 20 HR seasons, more 30 HR seasons and about 80 more career HRs. When you look at at season average, Edgar has a higher Slugging per season. Again, total runs + RBIs, Evans has an advantage around 350+ to 400+. Throw in the defense and I still just don't get it. Especially, since like stated, Evans sacrificed some of his game for the team. He would hit wherever they put him. The first guy to ever take the 1st pitch of the season deep.

I also think if he played when ESPN & Sportcenter were big, his defense would have been seen more and he might be in. He might not have had the impact of Rice on one side, but he was also a weapon in the field.

As a Sox fan, it's one of the reasons why I root for Aaron Judge when he's not playing against Boston. First, he's a quality person from everything I've ever heard about him and second, when he is healthy, he is every bit worth the price of admission that Ohtani is. Not comparing Evans to Judge offensively, but defensively they are more than afterthought for a batter/runner when the ball is in play.

The shame of Bonds, Clemens, McGwire, A-Rod and a few others is that they were HOFers without steroids. I have little to no sympathy for them.

 

[boog204]

I have on problem with the exclusion of Bonds, Clemens & the steroid group. They were grown men who knew what they were doing was wrong and they hurt their peers: whether is by having inflated stats or the suspicion of use for a few, even if they weren't named. I look at a guy like Jeff Bagwell, who has never been named in a report, failed a drug test and in the eyes of some was guilty by suspicion based on when and with who he played. The guy looked like a monster, but he was also kind of the pioneer of some of modern weight lifting that players do.
Rose's lifetime is up. I don't have a problem with him and Shoeless Joe getting in. I was not a proponent of Rose getting in before because while he bet on his own team, it is a very slippery slope that MLB just needs to stay away from. Look at some of the stories coming out of the NBA and NCAA right now.

The shame of Bonds, Clemens, McGwire, A-Rod and a few others is that they were HOFers without steroids. I have little to no sympathy for them.

All the steroid guys should be in, because some are already in. Nobody really believes Pudge was clean, right? There have been rumblings/rumors about Piazza, Bagwell, and Biggio as well for ages.

I'll open the can of worms. Papi failed a test along with 103 other guys. The vast majority of the other 103 are steroid guys. If the list that John Heyman "leaked" last year is accurate, it's kind of a who's who of the steroid era.... and Papi. But Papi's is the test that is somehow invalid, and he's the one guy out of that group who was clean the whole time. ARod and Sosa are giant dbags, but that is the failed test that got their careers/reps destroyed. But Papi is still going to "get to the bottom" of what his test was all about. He was tested so often and never failed a test. Neither did Bonds, Clemens, or some of the others.

I say let them all in. Put 'em in a separate wing if you want, but you can't deny that era and the greats who dominated it. I'd think a vast majority of the pitchers were juiced, too. So give Bonds, Manny, ARod, Sosa, and the rest their due.

 

[Chin Diesel]

Andruw's problem was 2-fold: He wasn't a great avg hitter, that I agree with. But he was very good in his peak, only his peak happened to only last about 8-10 years.

He started at 18 and by 30 he was pretty bad. After he left Atlanta, he stunk. But he had a bunch of great peak years and just by him being the best defensive player ever at his position, I think he's a definite.

I'm plenty good with a player having 8-10 peak years. Throw in a year or two developing as a youngin' and 4-5 years on the back end and you have a 15 year career with a high peak.

Problem for me is Beltran and Jones never had that massive peak.

As a contrast, someone like Jim Rice, who for a few year was the poster child for the Mendoza line of getting into the HoF.

His 1975-1985 was filled with an MVP and several more top-3 MVP years. Led the league in multiple significant offensive categories (Let's not dig up his GIDPs, lol). His 1978 season was one of the most complete offensive seasons ever. He clearly had a period of time where he was one of the best players in the league. But, he tailed off very quickly from his peak.
Others have mentioned Mattingly for similar reasons. Great bat and glove. Happened to have the worst luck for his time on the Yanks for playoffs. He should easily be in the HoF. And as a Sox fan I despise the Yanks.

Jones with his 400+ HR's and 10 GG's is in a very small group of players to ever do that- Willie Mays, Ken Griffey Jr, Mike Schmidt and Jones. That is nice, rarified air.

Beltran is way more of stretch and not a fan of it.

 

[Chin Diesel]

As a kid I loved watching both Parker and Dewey.

https://www.sports-reference.com/stathead/tiny/F1XED

 

[Spaceman213J]

All the steroid guys should be in, because some are already in. Nobody really believes Pudge was clean, right? There have been rumblings/rumors about Piazza, Bagwell, and Biggio as well for ages.

I'll open the can of worms. Papi failed a test along with 103 other guys. The vast majority of the other 103 are steroid guys. If the list that John Heyman "leaked" last year is accurate, it's kind of a who's who of the steroid era.... and Papi. But Papi's is the test that is somehow invalid, and he's the one guy out of that group who was clean the whole time. ARod and Sosa are giant dbags, but that is the failed test that got their careers/reps destroyed. But Papi is still going to "get to the bottom" of what his test was all about. He was tested so often and never failed a test. Neither did Bonds, Clemens, or some of the others.

I say let them all in. Put 'em in a separate wing if you want, but you can't deny that era and the greats who dominated it. I'd think a vast majority of the pitchers were juiced, too. So give Bonds, Manny, ARod, Sosa, and the rest their due.

Maybe instead of an asterisk, they can have a big needle on their plaque in bright neon colors.

I'm a huge Sox fan, and I didn't think Papi should be in and I'm guessing your going with Ivan "Pudge" Rodriguez and Fisk.

Again, it one of the things that bothers me because we someday, Clemens, A-Rod and Bonds will get in. Wouldn't mind if it is the 'lifetime ban" that was enforced on Rose.

 

[Deepster]

If the best of the best isn't in, regardless of how much their stats were tainted, then who cares? Don Mattingly or Harold Baines or Carlos Beltran? Meh. Who really cares?

They cheated. That whole era has a cloud hanging over it. Other eras also have questions (legal and illegal) associated with them that impacted stats. No black players. No free agency. Cocaine and uppers. Spitballs and sandpaper. Infield shifts.

The Hall of Fame is a joke.

 

[boog204]

Maybe instead of an asterisk, they can have a big needle on their plaque in bright neon colors.

I'm a huge Sox fan, and I didn't think Papi should be in and I'm guessing your going with Ivan "Pudge" Rodriguez and Fisk.

Again, it one of the things that bothers me because we someday, Clemens, A-Rod and Bonds will get in. Wouldn't mind if it is the 'lifetime ban" that was enforced on Rose.

Oh, yes... Ivan. Not Carlton. Completely forgot that Fisk had that nickname first.

 

[Spaceman213J]

Didn't realize it until doing some research, for the American League, nobody had more home runs than Evans in the 80s. Also, I think he is one of 11 players with 300+ home runs and 70+ triples. I think there are like 10 other guys aside from Evans who have done this with the names being Mays, Ruth, Gehrig, Brett, Musial and few other HOFers. Steve Finley, is the only one on the list not in the Hall and while denies taking steroids did admit to taking Creatine and more importantly, 'unnamed minerals' from some Houston teammates.

 

[Spaceman213J]

Oh, yes... Ivan. Not Carlton. Completely forgot that Fisk had that nickname first.

I was like I'm 99.99% sure.

Probably my final point on evans is that if the 1981 strike didn't cost him 50ish games, he probably finishes his career with 500+ doubles, 75+ triples and right around 400 home runs. Remember, '81 was during his best streak as a hitter. The only guys with 500+ doubles and 300+ homeruns (let alone close to 400) not in the hall of fame are the steroid era guys.
He may not have struck fear in a fan or pitcher that Jim Rice did, but the guy still led the AL in homeruns for the decade of the 80s and he was amazing defensively in the toughest right field in baseball.
Again, I just think they've let some guys in who are less deserving than Dewey. If they weren't in, I could understand. Seems like we're getting a change in voters where longevity doesn't matter as much.

 

[boog204]

I was like I'm 99.99% sure.

Probably my final point on evans is that if the 1981 strike didn't cost him 50ish games, he probably finishes his career with 500+ doubles, 75+ triples and right around 400 home runs. Remember, '81 was during his best streak as a hitter. The only guys with 500+ doubles and 300+ homeruns (let alone close to 400) not in the hall of fame are the steroid era guys.
He may not have struck fear in a fan or pitcher that Jim Rice did, but the guy still led the AL in homeruns for the decade of the 80s and he was amazing defensively in the toughest right field in baseball.
Again, I just think they've let some guys in who are less deserving than Dewey. If they weren't in, I could understand. Seems like we're getting a change in voters where longevity doesn't matter as much.

It’s fair. Of the OFs, He’s definitely better than Baines. Better than Puckett, Rice, Dawson, Raines? Brock is in because of the 3000 hits, would he be if he only had 2800? There’s some old school OFs who probably don’t belong, but that’s not really comparable.

 

[mauconnfan]

I have on problem with the exclusion of Bonds, Clemens & the steroid group. They were grown men who knew what they were doing was wrong and they hurt their peers: whether is by having inflated stats or the suspicion of use for a few, even if they weren't named. I look at a guy like Jeff Bagwell, who has never been named in a report, failed a drug test and in the eyes of some was guilty by suspicion based on when and with who he played. The guy looked like a monster, but he was also kind of the pioneer of some of modern weight lifting that players do.
Rose's lifetime is up. I don't have a problem with him and Shoeless Joe getting in. I was not a proponent of Rose getting in before because while he bet on his own team, it is a very slippery slope that MLB just needs to stay away from. Look at some of the stories coming out of the NBA and NCAA right now.

My main point is that if Baines is in, then there are about half dozen to dozen other guys who should be in, too. Evans is among those. Again, if he put up those numbers in less years, it sounds like he would be in, but longevity is supposed to be a good thing.

Another guy I look at is Edgar Martinez. He clearly only impacted one side of the game. He hit for a high average, but again Evans has more 20 HR seasons, more 30 HR seasons and about 80 more career HRs. When you look at at season average, Edgar has a higher Slugging per season. Again, total runs + RBIs, Evans has an advantage around 350+ to 400+. Throw in the defense and I still just don't get it. Especially, since like stated, Evans sacrificed some of his game for the team. He would hit wherever they put him. The first guy to ever take the 1st pitch of the season deep.

I also think if he played when ESPN & Sportcenter were big, his defense would have been seen more and he might be in. He might not have had the impact of Rice on one side, but he was also a weapon in the field.

As a Sox fan, it's one of the reasons why I root for Aaron Judge when he's not playing against Boston. First, he's a quality person from everything I've ever heard about him and second, when he is healthy, he is every bit worth the price of admission that Ohtani is. Not comparing Evans to Judge offensively, but defensively they are more than afterthought for a batter/runner when the ball is in play.

The shame of Bonds, Clemens, McGwire, A-Rod and a few others is that they were HOFers without steroids. I have little to no sympathy for them.

Dewey a great OFer with one of the best arms ever as well. Much better overall hitter than Jones, this is a great comparison. If Jones is in Dewey should be as well, which makes Cooperstown consistently the Hall of Very Good. And Jim Rice? As a Yankee fan he scared me when he stepped in the box as much as any Red Sox hitter ever. Should be in as well.

And on Bagwell, um a no doubter a Caminitti guy, as were a few other Astros. If he’s in, Papis in, then Bonds, ARod, Rose, Roger should all be in. Just my take and always will be.

 

[Alum86]

As a Mets fan, I don’t feel Beltran is a hall of famer at all. And there is talk about the Mets retiring his number which I am also vehemently against.

As a Mets fan I totally agree. And raise you Jeff Kent.

 

[Spaceman213J]

As a Mets fan I totally agree. And raise you Jeff Kent.

I never met Kent, but a few guys told me that they had and would rather be in an elevator with a family of badgers than have to listen to him drone on about himself again.

 

[boog204]

I think Beltran is a HOF'er. If we throw out the Astros crap since baseball doesn't care if you cheat, he has a higher WAR than the following HOF (or should be in Manny's case) OF'ers:

Manny, Raines, Dawson, Billy Williams, Winfield, Parker, Ichiro, Andruw

Beltran had over 400hrs, 300sbs. There are five players in the history of baseball to do this: Mays, Dawson, Bonds, ARod, and Beltran.

Also 2700 hits, 9asg, 3gg, and a career 1021ops in the postseason and all of that was done far before the Astros crap.

Other than staring at a nasty curveball and being a tool with a garbage can, why shouldn't he be in the HOF?

 

[cullaville]

I never met Kent, but a few guys told me that they had and would rather be in an elevator with a family of badgers than have to listen to him drone on about himself again.

Upon joining the New York Mets in 1992, Jeff Kent famously refused to participate in rookie hazing rituals, reacting with anger when asked to dress in a costume. He was known for resisting these pranks, which created friction with teammates.

 

[Spaceman213J]

I think Beltran is a HOF'er. If we throw out the Astros crap since baseball doesn't care if you cheat, he has a higher WAR than the following HOF (or should be in Manny's case) OF'ers:

Manny, Raines, Dawson, Billy Williams, Winfield, Parker, Ichiro, Andruw

Beltran had over 400hrs, 300sbs. There are five players in the history of baseball to do this: Mays, Dawson, Bonds, ARod, and Beltran.

Also 2700 hits, 9asg, 3gg, and a career 1021ops in the postseason and all of that was done far before the Astros crap.

Other than staring at a nasty curveball and being a tool with a garbage can, why shouldn't he be in the HOF?

I know Beltran cheated but how it affected his numbers up for debate. He was never linked to steroids and some past teammates said he was adverse to the idea of taking them. For me, he's a HOF'er for sure.

It's not trying to convince people, but just finding some facts out while doing some research. Evans is the only modern era player to have at least 10 homeruns from every spot in the batting order (again showing his versatility) and he led the major leagues in extra base hits for the 80s. He had more in that decade than the 70s leader, Reggie Jackson, and again lost about 50 games during what may have been his best season (leading the league in HRs, top few in RBIs, Runs but was messed up because of a work stoppage.
He also had some good years at the end of the 70s before entering his prime.

I just thought the extra base hit fact and 10+ homers everywhere in the lineup was pretty cool.

The other thing my brother talks about is that he was very capable base stealer (no Henderson or Raines), but capable. He just played in an era with managers who just didn't send guys or give the greenlight and used the Earl Weaver philosophy of wait for the 3 run homer. I thought it was interesting, Don Baylor even said that especially with men on base, Evans was superior batter than Jim Rice and one of the best he ever played with.

 

[Spaceman213J]

Upon joining the New York Mets in 1992, Jeff Kent famously refused to participate in rookie hazing rituals, reacting with anger when asked to dress in a costume. He was known for resisting these pranks, which created friction with teammates.

I just never heard anything good about him. Had a friend in college who had a specially made tee that said "Met's #1, Kent is a #2". Some thought it was a reference to his position instead of referring the euphemism for a BM.

 

[boog204]

I just never heard anything good about him. Had a friend in college who had a specially made tee that said "Met's #1, Kent is a #2". Some thought it was a reference to his position instead of referring the euphemism for a BM.

I think he was universally known for being a tool. I think there was a story where he told a teammate that he "didn't do dinner," meaning he would not socialize off the field. This could be that he was a narcissistic jerk, which I have heard rumors of, or, and this shouldn't be a thing, that he was just aloof and self-alienated. There was some talk that Kyle Tucker is that way. He does his job, plays ball, and then does his own thing.

 

[boog204]

I know Beltran cheated but how it affected his numbers up for debate. He was never linked to steroids and some past teammates said he was adverse to the idea of taking them. For me, he's a HOF'er for sure.

It's not trying to convince people, but just finding some facts out while doing some research. Evans is the only modern era player to have at least 10 homeruns from every spot in the batting order (again showing his versatility) and he led the major leagues in extra base hits for the 80s. He had more in that decade than the 70s leader, Reggie Jackson, and again lost about 50 games during what may have been his best season (leading the league in HRs, top few in RBIs, Runs but was messed up because of a work stoppage.
He also had some good years at the end of the 70s before entering his prime.

I just thought the extra base hit fact and 10+ homers everywhere in the lineup was pretty cool.

The other thing my brother talks about is that he was very capable base stealer (no Henderson or Raines), but capable. He just played in an era with managers who just didn't send guys or give the greenlight and used the Earl Weaver philosophy of wait for the 3 run homer. I thought it was interesting, Don Baylor even said that especially with men on base, Evans was superior batter than Jim Rice and one of the best he ever played with.

Maybe THIS is my Yankee bias, but I don't view hitting 10+ homeruns from every spot as actually being a super plus on his side. To me, it says that he was never a true cog in the lineup. IDK if that makes sense. Like, if you look at a great offensive player, they're typically going to be cemented in one or two of the 1-5 spots unless they were a part of some ridiculously deep lineup. Not sure if my rationale makes sense or if I'm digging my heels in as to why I don't want another Red Sox player in the hall. Again, it's very clear he was a very good player for a very long time. I just believe the hall should be reserved for truly great players (which obviously has already been lost).

 

[Spaceman213J]

Maybe THIS is my Yankee bias, but I don't view hitting 10+ homeruns from every spot as actually being a super plus on his side. To me, it says that he was never a true cog in the lineup. IDK if that makes sense. Like, if you look at a great offensive player, they're typically going to be cemented in one or two of the 1-5 spots unless they were a part of some ridiculously deep lineup. Not sure if my rationale makes sense or if I'm digging my heels in as to why I don't want another Red Sox player in the hall. Again, it's very clear he was a very good player for a very long time. I just believe the hall should be reserved for truly great players (which obviously has already been lost).

In most cases I would agree with you, but he played with guys like Yaz, Rice, Boggs, Lansford, Fisk who needed to have more defined roles in the line up. Boggs wasn't a cleanup guy or really leadoff material (even though he did do a little). Rice was your prototypical bomber and cleanup guy. Evans was ideally a 3 or 5, but because of his ability to get on base, was asked to bat first a lot. Again, he sacrifice some numbers and I just think it's wrong to look at numbers and punish a guy for being unselfish. He easily could have been more aggressive and would have well over 400 home runs.
Again, I agree that the standards have slipped for electing players, but now that the door is open. I'd be fine with Evans not getting in if they take about 20 guys out, but that's not happening. It's in the idea of fairness now that I think Evans should be in. I do think he's better than a group that has already been put in.

 

[superjohn]

Do you really need to argue past this?

Bonds - 7 time MVP, all time home run leader
Rose - All time hits leader
Clemens - 7 time Cy Young

And Harold Baines is in.

The Hall has no validity.

Bingo, the HOF is a joke. The best hitter/player of his generation isn't in, the best pitcher of his generation isn't in, and arguably the best postseason pitcher of all-time isn't in because they don't like his personality.