Army fires Rich Ellerson

[ZooCougar]

Army is just a different place - they make almost no concessions to athletics.

Todd Berry is a pretty good football coach - Sun Belt coach of the year last year, success at the FCS level....he was like 5-35 at Army.

You just can't win there.

They know exactly what impediments are keeping them at a competitive disadvantage. If they cared enough then they would address it.

The DOD has standardized threshholds on height and weight but each service applies them differently.

 

[Whale22]

That would be an uninformed statement. Being in the Army, having a very good friend who played running back for them the last time they were good (think CUSA days) and working around West Pointers every day, let me tell you that the Army is it's own worst enemy in terms of helping their program become a little more successful. West Point just has a different culture that the AFA and the USNA. Standards actually mean something there.

Played hockey there (WP). By no means would I ever call out the other academies, but I concur with this statement. Not sure how it is now (imagine even more strict at WP bc of the wars), but I took a summer course at the AFA (summer of 96) and while I had an absolute blast , it was eye opening in terms of the difference culturally. By no means was it a normal college campus, but I'd liken AFA to say where they keep our white collar prisoners and liken WP to the prison in Shawshank. If anyone went to the one of the academies, they'll understand my prison analogy.

 

[Carl Spackler]

Army is just a different place - they make almost no concessions to athletics.

Todd Berry is a pretty good football coach - Sun Belt coach of the year last year, success at the FCS level....he was like 5-35 at Army.

You just can't win there.

That's not true - you can produce winning football at Army. Competitive championship national title football? Not realistic unless they change things dramatically.

The issue as it is and always will be with college football, is recruiting. To recruit to win successfully, you need to have a plan and goal that works, just like anything else in life and you got to be able to find players.

If you look at the history, it was at about the Vietnam war era when Army football really started going south. THey recovered in the 1980s to the 6-6, 7-5, 8-4 kind of level of success that UCONN had under Edsall that we would all die for right now. They had two 9 win seasons in the 1980s. A friend of mine from high school went to Army while I was heading my way at the time. THe success they had in the 1980s, and the shifting intercollegiate football landscape at the time, which I've written endlessly about, while the Big East basketball conference came to power - and the continued .500 football and a 10 win season in 95 or 96, is what motivated them to join a conference and forego independence in the 1990s.

Since joining conference USA, and then going back to independent though, it's been all downhill. Those kinds of decisions, courses of action, and their results are much more about management and goals rather than actualy play on the field IMNSHO.

I really had no idea how mismanaged the Army program has been in the past decade+ until I read armyhuskyfan's thoughts the other day and followed up on it with some reading.

There is no coincidence that the Vietnam war era and the current war on terrorism have had effects on the recruiting for Army football, but at this point, after more reading, I probably have overstated the effect that has had on Army football. No doubt there is an effect, but I'm not so sure if it's simply a matter of a very poorly directed football program for the past 10-15 years that has had them so far below .500 and competitive football

and losing to USNA 12 times in a row........

man - I wouldn't want to be a middie on the first squad to lose.

I felt bad about the winning streak for a second the other day, but upon further review - those cadets know exactly what their signing up for to play football there, it's the management of that athletic department that should be embarrassed.

 

[ZooCougar]

Played hockey there (WP). By no means would I ever call out the other academies, but I concur with this statement. Not sure how it is now (imagine even more strict at WP bc of the wars), but I took a summer course at the AFA (summer of 96) and while I had an absolute blast , it was eye opening in terms of the difference culturally. By no means was it a normal college campus, but I'd liken AFA to say where they keep our white collar prisoners and liken WP to the prison in Shawshank. If anyone went to the one of the academies, they'll understand my prison analogy.

I wouldn't call them out, I think they are being smart.

As far as cultural differences, I went to Airborne School as a ROTC Cadet, there were Cadets and Midshipmen in my class along with me, the manners and mannerisms of Cadets and Midshipmen are really, really different. Most of them were juniors about to seniors like me, (I forget what west Pointers call theire equivalent) and it was clear that Cadets had spent about 3 years getting pounded into submission and Middies had a different experience.

 

[ZooCougar]

That's not true - you can produce winning football at Army. Competitive championship national title football? Not realistic unless they change things dramatically.

The issue as it is and always will be with college football, is recruiting. To recruit to win successfully, you need to have a plan and goal that works, just like anything else in life and you got to be able to find players.

If you look at the history, it was at about the Vietnam war era when Army football really started going south. THey recovered in the 1980s to the 6-6, 7-5, 8-4 kind of level of success that UCONN had under Edsall that we would all die for right now. They had two 9 win seasons in the 1980s. A friend of mine from high school went to Army while I was heading my way at the time. THe success they had in the 1980s, and the shifting intercollegiate football landscape at the time, which I've written endlessly about, while the Big East basketball conference came to power - and the continued .500 football and a 10 win season in 95 or 96, is what motivated them to join a conference and forego independence in the 1990s.

Since joining conference USA, and then going back to independent though, it's been all downhill. Those kinds of decisions, courses of action, and their results are much more about management and goals rather than actualy play on the field IMNSHO.

I really had no idea how mismanaged the Army program has been in the past decade+ until I read armyhuskyfan's thoughts the other day and followed up on it with some reading.

There is no coincidence that the Vietnam war era and the current war on terrorism have had effects on the recruiting for Army football, but at this point, after more reading, I probably have overstated the effect that has had on Army football. No doubt there is an effect, but I'm not so sure if it's simply a matter of a very poorly directed football program for the past 10-15 years that has had them so far below .500 and competitive football

and losing to USNA 12 times in a row........

man - I wouldn't want to be a middie on the first squad to lose.

I felt bad about the winning streak for a second the other day, but upon further review - those cadets know exactly what their signing up for to play football there, it's the management of that athletic department that should be embarrassed.

I don't think he said that it's impossible for them to win. What he said that winning like you are saying isn't a priority.

 

[Carl Spackler]

I don't think he said that it's impossible for them to win. What he said that winning like you are saying isn't a priority.

I think he said "You just can't win there." I guess that's open to a lot of interpretation to what that means.

Service academy life is only "prison like" if you don't have a desire, calling, whatever corny description you want to give, about actually wanting that kind of lifestyle.

All I know about the USMA is what my old friend used to tell me when he was there, and one of the things that really stands out to me to this day so many years later, is one phone call we had as new guys in each of our new homes out of high school. He was shocked at being around so many guys that really liked their rifles and were intent on using them, and couldn't wait to graduate so that they could use them. This was our first week respectively out of high school. He was there to be an officer and play football, and serve his country. He wanted the discipline and the lifestyle, but his direct quote to me that I can still hear so many years later: "There are a lot of guys here that really just want to kill people." Different breed than that USNA, for sure. My buddy nearly left in that first month, didn't fit in, but he got adjusted and served well. Maybe they need their recruits at the USMA to be pounded into submission so that they won't just want to kill people. Who knows.

All I know is that they lost to Navy - again. 12 times in a row. It's past embarrassing to pathetic now.

 

[ZooCougar]

I think he said "You just can't win there." I guess that's open to a lot of interpretation to what that means.

Service academy life is only "prison like" if you don't have a desire, calling, whatever corny description you want to give, about actually wanting that kind of lifestyle.

All I know about the USMA is what my old friend used to tell me when he was there, and one of the things that really stands out to me to this day so many years later, is one phone call we had as new guys in each of our new homes out of high school. He was shocked at being around so many guys that really liked their rifles and were intent on using them, and couldn't wait to graduate so that they could use them. This was our first week respectively out of high school. He was there to be an officer and play football, and serve his country. He wanted the discipline and the lifestyle, but his direct quote to me that I can still hear so many years later: "There are a lot of guys here that really just want to kill people." Different breed than that USNA, for sure. My buddy nearly left in that first month, didn't fit in, but he got adjusted and served well. Maybe they need their recruits at the USMA to be pounded into submission so that they won't just want to kill people. Who knows.

All I know is that they lost to Navy - again. 12 times in a row. It's past embarrassing to pathetic now.

Almost nothing in this post makes sense.

 

[Carl Spackler]

Almost nothing in this post makes sense.

That's ok. It's in code.

 

[zls44]

Jim Grobe is interested in the job. He's a good fit, but it would be another old coach there. They could use some young blood.

 

[Whale22]

Service academy life is only "prison like" if you don't have a desire, calling, whatever corny description you want to give, about actually wanting that kind of lifestyle.quote]

I had "desire, calling, whatever corny description," you want to call it but it still felt like prison at times. I sound very condescending saying this but there's no way else to describe it, unless you have gone there, there truly is no way to really describe the feeling/experience. Don't get me wrong there were some great and truly memorable moments, and yes I'd go back if I had to do it all over again, but I'm 38 years old and I (and a bunch of my classmates and teammates) still get that sick feeling when I get within 10 miles of that place. Feels like heading back for Sunday Night Formation after a weekend of freedom. It is unique in ways that really cannot be described. Feinstein's "Civil War" in my eyes comes the closest to capturing that "uniqueness."

 

[Nostical]

They could use some young blood.

How about TJ Weist?

 

[ZooCougar]

I know this feeling.

 

[Adios]

Almost nothing in this post makes sense.

Must be nice playing reverse psychology.

 

[Carl Spackler]

I had "desire, calling, whatever corny description," you want to call it but it still felt like prison at times. I sound very condescending saying this but there's no way else to describe it, unless you have gone there, there truly is no way to really describe the feeling/experience. Don't get me wrong there were some great and truly memorable moments, and yes I'd go back if I had to do it all over again, but I'm 38 years old and I (and a bunch of my classmates and teammates) still get that sick feeling when I get within 10 miles of that place. Feels like heading back for Sunday Night Formation after a weekend of freedom. It is unique in ways that really cannot be described. Feinstein's "Civil War" in my eyes comes the closest to capturing that "uniqueness."

I'm assuming you mean WP. I've gotten more personal here than I care to and I thank all of you for your service. I'll just say I have different experience. I've always liked the Ocean. It's like momma to me and I feel real good every time I get close.

 

[ZooCougar]

I'm assuming you mean WP. I've gotten more personal here than I care to and I thank all of you for your service. I'll just say I have different experience. I've always liked the Ocean. It's like momma to me and I feel real good every time I get close.

Your personal experience serving consists of? Talking to your buddies?

 

[Whale22]

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/19/s...r-army-football-a-duty-to-win-again.html?_r=0

A lot of what was covered in this thread.