Army fires Rich Ellerson

[noeynox]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/college-football/news/20131215/rich-ellerson-army-dismissed/

 

[Colt house75]

Expected..... Will be interesting to see what they pay and what they're willing to part with to be relevant....recruiting (???) is another matter.
Navy pays Niumatalolo $1.5MM. Ellerson was paid $600k.

http://blogs.militarytimes.com/afteraction/2011/11/17/salary-survey-niumatalolo-takes-top-dollar/

 

[husky210]

Army has other issues. Height/weight requirements are number 1.

 

[brasssbonanzaa]

Army has other issues. Height/weight requirements are number 1.

Not to mention that they REALLY don't let anyone in there academically, where even the Stanfords and Dukes have some leeway.

 

[FfldCntyFan]

Not to mention that they REALLY don't let anyone in there academically, where even the Stanfords and Dukes have some leeway.

I realize the difficulty in getting into West Point but I'm not sure they have any obstacles that Navy and Air Force don't also have (shy of the momentum of their football program being the polar opposite of Navy these days).

 

[kibblesnbits]

Army has other issues. Height/weight requirements are number 1.

That's it. Due to the PT requirements they are usually outweighed by 40+ pounds on the lines. You won't find any 300+ lb linemen at West Point.

 

[kibblesnbits]

I realize the difficulty in getting into West Point but I'm not sure they have any obstacles that Navy and Air Force don't also have (shy of the momentum of their football program being the polar opposite of Navy these days).

Other than the fact that a young Army 1st or 2nd Lt is likely to find himself leading a platoon in a less than friendly desert location within a year or so of graduation?

 

[FfldCntyFan]

Are you claiming that Midshipmen and Air Force Cadets are exempt from active duty after graduation?

 

[kibblesnbits]

No, but they are far less likely to find themselves on frontline ground duty (with the very notable exception of those midshipmen that branch to the Marines) within a year of graduating. Young lieutenants (and their non-com squad leaders) are first level leaders of our ground troops in the field.

 

[Colt house75]

Army has other issues. Height/weight requirements are number 1.

Makes Niumatalolo record given what they have to overcome even more impressive.
Ivy league tough academics with a desire to serve and commit for 5(?) years afterward.
Would lik

That's it. Due to the PT requirements they are usually outweighed by 40+ pounds on the lines. You won't find any 300+ lb linemen at West Point.

Correct, West point has no one over 280. Navy has 4 players over 300, others in the 285 to 300 range.

 

[Fishy]

The academic restrictions at Army are even more stringent than they are at Annapolis or the Air Force Academy.

That's a really, really tough job.

You can recruit such a tiny subset of players and you have an alumni base that has absolutely zero use for failure at any level. They win wars....they don't want to hear about your troubles beating Central Michigan.

 

[freescooter]

I'd say there are 3 things that make it extra tough at Army. One is that it is the least glamorous of the 3 services. Second, both Air Force and Navy make exceptions in their admission requirements for athletes. Air Force has done it for a long time. Now it isn't like they'll admit a plant and you still need to go through the military lifestyle, so it isn't for everyone, but it does allow them to get some guys Army can't. Finally although its a small concession, both Air Force and Navy now have policies to make special arrangements for athletes who get drafted by the NFL/NBA etc. Probably doesn't apply to too many, if any, but it means you can tell a kid if you come here we'll make sure you can play. Army doesn't make that guarantee.

 

[PAGS]

Army should really just go FCS...they would be fairly competitive there and could still play Navy every year!

 

[Whale22]

2013 - 12 losses in a row = 2001. Something happened that year that changed the recruiting dynamic. All 3 services serve admirably, but it is no secret that the Army has lost far more than the other branches of service during this period. AFA and Navy don't need to negative recruit and do not think they ever would, but 12 losses (starting in 2001) definitely seems like a strong correlation to me.

To "kibblesnbits" point, if you watched the game, I don't think you will ever see the likes of #72 on Navy in an Army uniform.

 

[Carl Spackler]

It's not surprising that he was fired. I'm sure he wasn't surprised. I don't remember if it was here, or somewhere in real life that I had a discussion about Army football before, but it was fairly recent. When you put the pieces of the puzzle together, it doesn't become much of surprise that Navy's win streak started after 2001. Prior to this 12 game streak, Navy was actually behind Army (all time series was (46-49-7 in favor of Army prior to streak, now 58-49-7). In the 1990s, all hell was breaking loose at Navy football, because they couldn't beat Army I think for 6 years in a row, and at the time, that Army win streak was the longest ever going back to 1890.

The basic fact is not that it's hard for Army to recruit players that can compete with Navy, or anybody else in division 1A in football in the past decade, it's hard for them to recruit anybody at all, they are getting people that want the lifestyle and turning them into football players for the most part. Not finding football players, that want the lifestyle.

You can play the triple option run game, with small linemen, and run all over defensive lineman that outweigh you by 30-40 lbs or more.

Army's problem, is that Army officers have been getting killed overseas regularly for over a decade, in numbers that by far, exceed officers KIA in any of the other services, and frankly, for the career military men, the lowest ranked CO's coming out of the academies aren't the most respected folks out there, anyway they got to earn it, but anyway....

Over the past decade, it's a hardcore young man, that has agreed to attend the U.S.M.A., because they know they are going out in the line of fire, and they know what they need to go through to get there. It's just less dangerous for people that are drawn to that kind of military lifestyle and discipline to find other routes to serve.

I suspect that as soon as our overseas policies and military missions overseas change a bit hopefully in coming years, that Army football will see itself rise up a bit higher again than where it is.

Really, the only problem they got, is that they fumble too much and don't have enough depth. THe starting fullback in the triple option on Saturday was carrying the ball, and playing with one hand in a full cast (a la Scott Lutrus a few years ago).

I felt a little bad for Army on Sat......because they pour everything they got into it on the field, but just don't have it to get it done....

It was just for a second though...because..... BEAT ARMY.

 

[Carl Spackler]

The academic restrictions at Army are even more stringent than they are at Annapolis or the Air Force Academy.

That's a really, really tough job.

You can recruit such a tiny subset of players and you have an alumni base that has absolutely zero use for failure at any level. They win wars....they don't want to hear about your troubles beating Central Michigan.

http://www.armytimes.com/article/20130821/NEWS/308210022/

West Point graduates have accounted for a higher percentage of U.S. military combat deaths in the post-9/11 war on terrorism than in all but one major American conflict since the academy’s founding in 1802.


Published August 2013 prior to football season.

Much respect to any young man that chooses to serve his country through the USMA.

 

[ArmyHuskyFan]

The height/weight restrictions dont apply to athletes unless they changed something since I graduated in 2001. I played lacrosse for a few years and we sat in a special part of the mess hall with the rest of the athletes which were known as "heavy tables". Basically we got to eat more food than the other Cadets because we required more calories because of the extra practives/workouts etc. It's pretty common for an Army offensive lineman to lose 60 pounds between football season and OBC.

All of the reasons that you guys stated have led to this dismal 12 year losing streak (GWOT etc.) but the person I blame more than anyone is Rick Greenspan. D+ckhead Greenspan was the Army athletic director in 2000 who hired his good buddy from Illinois State (Todd Berry) to be the Army HC despite his stellar 24-24 head coaching record. Greenspan passed over some pretty qualified candidates, including a guy who you all have probably heard of and would go on to be the bane of Army's existence - Paul Johnson. Berry decided to shift Army away from the triple option and bring in a wide open passing attack which turned out to be an udder failure. He also decided to stop sending qualified football players who needed help academically to the USMA Prep School (located at the time in Ft. Monmouth, NJ) and insist on targeting players that would be admitted directly to USMA. Both of these ridiculous decisions set back Army recruiting for 4-5 years.

What Army needs to do is hire a Paul Johnson desciple (my choice is Jeff Monken at Georgia Southern) or somone from the Air Force coaching tree who has success recruiting and running the triple option. No more 60+ year old retreads like Bobby Ross or Ellerson.

While it's certainly not an easy place to coach and win, it's not impossible. If and Navy can do it then Army should be able to as well.

 

[Skiblets]

The height and weight restrictions at Army are no more stringent than those at Navy and Air Force. I do think Carl may have hit the nail on the head. Serving in the Army is not as 'glamorous' as Navy and Air Force and is inherently more dangerous given the way we wage war these days. There is no Top Gun equivalent for the Army.

 

[Carl Spackler]

No, but they are far less likely to find themselves on frontline ground duty (with the very notable exception of those midshipmen that branch to the Marines) within a year of graduating. Young lieutenants (and their non-com squad leaders) are first level leaders of our ground troops in the field.

Correct. The nature of conflicts we've been engaged in overseas for the past 12 years has been vast majority small unit tactics, usually sub-company level operations, led by junior officers in less than desireable environments. Ensigns coming out of the naval academy are given assignments that are much less life threatening, and combat in their arena, if they've seen it in the same time period, usually involves managing some mid-level operations in the bowels of a sea going vessel, rather than actually firing a weapon directly at another human being.

 

[Carl Spackler]

The height/weight restrictions dont apply to athletes unless they changed something since I graduated in 2001. I played lacrosse for a few years and we sat in a special part of the mess hall with the rest of the athletes which were known as "heavy tables". Basically we got to eat more food than the other Cadets because we required more calories because of the extra practives/workouts etc. It's pretty common for an Army offensive lineman to lose 60 pounds between football season and OBC.

All of the reasons that you guys stated have led to this dismal 12 year losing streak (GWOT etc.) but the person I blame more than anyone is Rick Greenspan. D+ckhead Greenspan was the Army athletic director in 2000 who hired his good buddy from Illinois State (Todd Berry) to be the Army HC despite his stellar 24-24 head coaching record. Greenspan passed over some pretty qualified candidates, including a guy who you all have probably heard of and would go on to be the bane of Army's existence - Paul Johnson. Berry decided to shift Army away from the triple option and bring in a wide open passing attack which turned out to be an udder failure. He also decided to stop sending qualified football players who needed help academically to the USMA Prep School (located at the time in Ft. Monmouth, NJ) and insist on targeting players that would be admitted directly to USMA. Both of these ridiculous decisions set back Army recruiting for 4-5 years.

What Army needs to do is hire a Paul Johnson desciple (my choice is Jeff Monken at Georgia Southern) or somone from the Air Force coaching tree who has success recruiting and running the triple option. No more 60+ year old retreads like Bobby Ross or Ellerson.

While it's certainly not an easy place to coach and win, it's not impossible. If and Navy can do it then Army should be able to as well.

Thanks for your service.

 

[Carl Spackler]

The height and weight restrictions at Army are no more stringent than those at Navy and Air Force. I do think Carl may have hit the nail on the head. Serving in the Army is not as 'glamorous' as Navy and Air Force and is inherently more dangerous given the way we wage war these days. There is no Top Gun equivalent for the Army.

LOL. I don't know about that. I've met some Rangers in my life that are primadonnas.

That fact is that anyone considering the USMA, is going to be well aware of what graduating from West Point means these days, and that's what makes recruiting harder than anywhere else. I'm not aware of any physical restrictions that apply. Chad Hennings was allowed to go to the USAF academy to play football, and flew warthogs in the gulf, and if I remember correctly, they had to strip the cockpit and rebuild his own plane specifically because he was so far out of regulation size and specs for a pilot. Exceptions can be and will be made.

What I was unaware of, is the coaching, recruiting, football approach/philosophy mess that armyhuskyfan brought up. That's not going to help anything for sure.

 

[huskymedic]

JFowlerCBS1:26pm via web
Former Wake Forest coach Jim Grobe told CBS Charlotte he'd be interested in Army job.

 

[ZooCougar]

I realize the difficulty in getting into West Point but I'm not sure they have any obstacles that Navy and Air Force don't also have (shy of the momentum of their football program being the polar opposite of Navy these days).

That would be an uninformed statement. Being in the Army, having a very good friend who played running back for them the last time they were good (think CUSA days) and working around West Pointers every day, let me tell you that the Army is it's own worst enemy in terms of helping their program become a little more successful. West Point just has a different culture that the AFA and the USNA. Standards actually mean something there.

 

[ZooCougar]

The height and weight restrictions at Army are no more stringent than those at Navy and Air Force. I do think Carl may have hit the nail on the head. Serving in the Army is not as 'glamorous' as Navy and Air Force and is inherently more dangerous given the way we wage war these days. There is no Top Gun equivalent for the Army.

You're wrong. They don't have the same standards.

 

[Fishy]

Army is just a different place - they make almost no concessions to athletics.

Todd Berry is a pretty good football coach - Sun Belt coach of the year last year, success at the FCS level....he was like 5-35 at Army.

You just can't win there.