Arizona St (19) @ Oregon (3) - 2/09/20

[nwhoopfan]

I'm very interested to see how our four seniors react to this beat down.

Aren't there 5?

 

[jonson]

I think we would have to run the table in order to have a shot at hosting. That March 1 home game against Stanford is going to be a critical one. The Cards definitely looked beatable in their last start.

The UCLA game today showed how tough the Pac can be on any given game. I'm very interested to see how our four seniors react to this beat down.

These are four young ladies invested considerable time and passion in the game and the remainder of the season will be a test of character. Assuming we get by Washington and Washington State at home next weekend we will be in a position to evaluate whether we have the guns to run the table.

I appreciate the discussion on the style of play. While we can differ on the effectiveness of various defensive schemes I think it's important to be as objective and realistic as possible about the type of play.

As a long time season ticket holder watching the last many years the Devil's consistently play very hard and physical. ASU does not get the elite High School athlete. Sun Devils are consistently working with under sized overachieving players working to max out their potential. I have tremendous respect for these young ladies and what they accomplish in a very talented and deep conference.

Another poster indicated that other teams in the Pac-12 also play aggressive, hard, physical style defense. I don't consider any of these teams dirty.

There have been individual visiting players over the years who push the limits. I've consistently called out one recent player now playing in the WNBA. Her team was physical one not dirty. However this player did push the boundaries.

I've never seen a Sun Devil player engage in play like Arike Ogumbwale.

Never.

CTT does not tolerate that type of play.

For me, the issue is not "dirty" play, and I am certainly not accusing anyone in the Pac 12 of promoting that, but a style of play that works against what Geno talked about at some length when discussing a few years ago rules changes that were supposed to improve freedom of movement on the court. I assume referees are supposed to support that as well. All of this is eye of the beholder kind of stuff, however, and I do recognize that games like this can have a significant payoff down the road during tournament play.

 

[Plebe]

Aren't there 5?

Richardson, Ryan, Russell, Ruden and Tapley.

All too easy to forget the one whose name doesn't start with R.

Or maybe because Russell is out with injury? And word on her timetable?

 

[azfan]

Richardson, Ryan, Russell, Ruden and Tapley.

All too easy to forget the one whose name doesn't start with R.

Or maybe because Russell is out with injury? And word on her timetable?

The four Rs are seniors. Tapley is a grad transfer. She completed her degree in 3 years (impressive).

Another member of the team...Sara Bejeidi, from Finland is listed as a freshman....I believe she was admitted to ASU with junior academic standing.

 

[WestCoast]

Ha the vitriol is just so over the top. Just because ASU doesn't bow down against higher-ranked teams.

ASU plays the way it plays because that style has proven to be successful under CTT for an extended period, regardless of the talent level on her squads. You have to be physical to play the way that is expected by CTT. Unfortunately, that style often leads to very ugly basketball to watch as officials struggle to figure out what to call and what to let go. Graves expressed his concerns. And he should.

It is not a question of not bowing down to opponents. PAC-12 fans expect ASU to do what it takes to impose its physical will against every team it faces. It is all about playing past the point of fair and physical play. That is what has come to be expected of ASU.

 

[azfan]

ASU plays the way it plays because that style has proven to be successful under CTT for an extended period, regardless of the talent level on her squads. You have to be physical to play the way that is expected by CTT. Unfortunately, that style often leads to very ugly basketball to watch as officials struggle to figure out what to call and what to let go. Graves expressed his concerns. And he should.

It is not a question of not bowing down to opponents. PAC-12 fans expect ASU to do what it takes to impose its physical will against every team it faces. It is all about playing past the point of fair and physical play. That is what has come to be expected of ASU.

I agree that Sun Devils like many successful teams try to impose their physical will on their opponent. ASU's strong physical aggressive play in my experience does not verge into anything dirty or beyond the rules.

On the issue of fair. If my 21 year old daughter plays one-on-one against my 21 year old son and imposes her will on him I'm not sure if this is fair. I'm not sure if Arizona or Baylor playing a very very weak non-conference schedule is fair. But it does happen and if the Wildcats or Bears physically dominate these other teams there is nothing dirty or beyond the rules.

Likewise if the Sun Devils are playing an elite team and make every effort to physically compete I can't see that there's anything lacking fairness or outside rules about this.

This is I think an important discussion. Referees I believe do the very best they can to call a game according to the rules.

These are elite athletes playing at a rapid rate of speed and decisions are split second. I think we're arguing here not about black and white but the gray area. We would all agree that Arike Ogumbwale type of action is dirty play outside the rules and should be treated accordingly and condemned.

It is in the physical play both in the paint and working for 50/50 balls that can be a gray area. By gray I mean physically and determinedly trying to make a play as opposed to trying to disable or hurt an opponent.

I think we all want to see players on the court giving 100% and making a physical and determined effort to make a play. When two players of that mindset meet physical play will ensue.

I would say that much more often than not that physical contact takes place within the context of the game. Now fouls occur and we would all expect that. I would be hesitant to go out on a limb and label play like this dirty. Dirty play is obvious in the ND example above we know it when we see it and we would all agree it should be condemned.

 

[WestCoast]

Ionescu and Ryan double T I think is the call.

Ryan seems to be playing chippy with increasing frequency this season. I saw her double foul with Pivec earlier this season and a replay of her double technical with Ionescu yesterday. Ryan can be rugged when fouls aren't being called. She has been that way for years. Opposing players appear to be getting tired of her act this season.

 

[j66kicker]

I agree that Sun Devils like many successful teams try to impose their physical will on their opponent....

These are elite athletes playing at a rapid rate of speed and decisions are split second. I think we're arguing here not about black and white but the gray area. We would all agree that Arike Ogumbwale type of action is dirty play outside the rules and should be treated accordingly and condemned.

It is in the physical play both in the paint and working for 50/50 balls that can be a gray area. By gray I mean physically and determinedly trying to make a play as opposed to trying to disable or hurt an opponent.

I think we all want to see players on the court giving 100% and making a physical and determined effort to make a play. When two players of that mindset meet physical play will ensue.

I would say that much more often than not that physical contact takes place within the context of the game. Now fouls occur and we would all expect that. I would be hesitant to go out on a limb and label play like this dirty. Dirty play is obvious in the ND example above we know it when we see it and we would all agree it should be condemned.

I've watched ASU quite a bit and I'm not sure I'd say they play "dirty." But I also disagree that they are "elite athletes." I don't recall any ASU women's basketball player ever who I'd call an "elite athlete." To me it looks like inferior athletes trying to neutralize their athletic disadvantage against elite teams with physical play beyond what is the real intent of basketball. Maybe it's legal, and maybe it's a good strategy - obviously it works sometimes. But I do get why others in the PAC-12 call it ugly.

 

[WestCoast]

Really? I think Kelly Graves is still trying to figure out how his preseason #1 Oregon team lost to ASU earlier in the season.

Graves appears to have figured it out. CTT's starters didn't bring it like they did against Oregon in Tempe. A two-point first quarter for the Sun Devils seemed to be a carryover from the end-of-game loss on Friday. A tough weekend for ASU.

 

[azfan]

Ryan seems to be playing chippy with increasing frequency this season. I saw her double foul with Pivec earlier this season and a replay of her double technical with Ionescu yesterday. Ryan can be rugged when fouls aren't being called. She has been that way for years. Opposing players appear to be getting tired of her act this season.

Playing against acknowledged super stars or stars carries a bit of weight.

I remember the story of Ted Williams later in his career taking a very close pitch. The umpire called a ball and when the catcher complained over his shoulder the umpire replied if Mr. Williams thinks it's a ball its a ball.

I suspect most of the time it's subconscious but officials often have a different internal standard when officiating a superstar whether Sabrina or Kobe. If you're on the other end of that exchange there are a number of challenges you have.

Firsr the frustration issue but more importantly the uncertainty of what the standard is for you if it's not the same one as the Superstar.

 

[NWHoopFan2]

I agree that Sun Devils like many successful teams try to impose their physical will on their opponent. ASU's strong physical aggressive play in my experience does not verge into anything dirty or beyond the rules.

On the issue of fair. If my 21 year old daughter plays one-on-one against my 21 year old son and imposes her will on him I'm not sure if this is fair. I'm not sure if Arizona or Baylor playing a very very weak non-conference schedule is fair. But it does happen and if the Wildcats or Bears physically dominate these other teams there is nothing dirty or beyond the rules.

Likewise if the Sun Devils are playing an elite team and make every effort to physically compete I can't see that there's anything lacking fairness or outside rules about this.

This is I think an important discussion. Referees I believe do the very best they can to call a game according to the rules.

These are elite athletes playing at a rapid rate of speed and decisions are split second. I think we're arguing here not about black and white but the gray area. We would all agree that Arike Ogumbwale type of action is dirty play outside the rules and should be treated accordingly and condemned.

It is in the physical play both in the paint and working for 50/50 balls that can be a gray area. By gray I mean physically and determinedly trying to make a play as opposed to trying to disable or hurt an opponent.

I think we all want to see players on the court giving 100% and making a physical and determined effort to make a play. When two players of that mindset meet physical play will ensue.

I would say that much more often than not that physical contact takes place within the context of the game. Now fouls occur and we would all expect that. I would be hesitant to go out on a limb and label play like this dirty. Dirty play is obvious in the ND example above we know it when we see it and we would all agree it should be condemned.

Robbi Ryan pushing Minyon Moore with two hands into the basketball standard on a breakaway goes way beyond any reasonable interpretation of the rules. Yes that is how she plays all the time. That doesn’t make it right.

 

[jonson]

Graves appears to have figured it out. CTT's starters didn't bring it like they did against Oregon in Tempe. A two-point first quarter for the Sun Devils seemed to be a carryover from the end-of-game loss on Friday. A tough weekend for ASU.

I'd say a 31 point win suggests that as well.

 

[WestCoast]

Robbi Ryan pushing Minyon Moore with two hands into the basketball standard on a breakaway goes way beyond any reasonable interpretation of the rules. Yes that is how she plays all the time. That doesn’t make it right.

That is what Ryan does. Good shooter. Fiery competitor. Makes the referees determine whether her play is over the line. I like many things about her. Just think that she plays as physical as the refs will allow and often just beyond. Will get someone hurt with her play.

 

[azfan]

That is what Ryan does. Good shooter. Fiery competitor. Makes the referees determine whether her play is over the line. I like many things about her. Just think that she plays as physical as the refs will allow and often just beyond. Will get someone hurt with her play.

I like your point about the role of the official in the game. Injuries that result from fiery competition happen.... basketball is a contact sport. Speculation about the future isn't particularly useful in determining dirty play, in my view.

 

[WestCoast]

I like your point about the role of the official in the game. Injuries that result from fiery competition happen.... basketball is a contact sport. Speculation about the future isn't particularly useful in determining dirty play, in my view.

Determining dirty play is based upon historical observation, not mere speculation about the future. You have a different opinion about Ryan's actions than I do. Moore, Ionescu, Pivec, and others who have competed against Ryan know that they have to protect themselves against her physical play at all times based upon how she has pushed the limits of acceptable physical play in the past. I recognize that Ryan isn't interested in winning any popularity contests with anybody on the opposing teams. I just think that you can be a tough player without a lot of the extra stuff that she interjects into the game. Basketball is a physical game. It doesn't have to be a dirty and ugly one as well.

 

[azfan]

Determining dirty play is based upon historical observation, not mere speculation about the future. You have a different opinion about Ryan's actions than I do. Moore, Ionescu, Pivec, and others who have competed against Ryan know that they have to protect themselves against her physical play at all times based upon how she has pushed the limits of acceptable physical play in the past. I recognize that Ryan isn't interested in winning any popularity contests with anybody on the opposing teams. I just think that you can be a tough player without a lot of the extra stuff that she interjects into the game. Basketball is a physical game. It doesn't have to be a dirty and ugly one as well.

This is one of the wonderful things about sports fandom. Differing points of view and perspectives and discussion of those points of view.

Obviously you and I have a different viewpoint on a physical competitive style of play by this particular player. I will readily admit as a Sun Devil fan I have a perspective and most likely a bias.

I use speculative in my response to you because in your post you indicated: "Will get someone hurt with her play."

To my knowledge after watching the Sun Devils and Robbi play over the last four years there hasn't been an injury a result of her play. That is she has not injured anyone so you were speculating that in the future she would.if I mischaracterized either your statement or intent I apologize. On the face of it it did seem to me you were speculating.

Over on the thread physical vs. dirty fellow BYer @Plebe outlined her view after a review of the Oregon/ASU game. I suppose I reference it because that analysis seems to fall in line with mine regarding Robbi and her competitive, fiery, physical style of play.

Moreover the Pac as you know is a very physical conference with Robbi being the recipient of a similar physical play that you see her evidence on the court. No Sun Devil or fan that I'm aware of has has found it necessary to assert that these other Pac players are dirty. Rather the observation that they are physical and competitive is appropriate.

Clearly Minyon, Sabrina and other players would much prefer a softer player allowing them freedom of movement. Ryan is just responding to the CTT defensive system.

 

[PAC-12HoopFan]

Players respect opposing players who play the game the right way and understand that physical play is a part of the equation. Players also discover quickly who is holding jerseys, grasping on screens, and elbowing away from the officials. ASU has played the way it plays for a long time. It is a system that CTT teaches and perpetuates. As a fan of showcasing player skill, I don't like the way that ASU holds and moves when screening. However, opposing teams can either complain or do something about it. The teams that adapt to that physical style of play will have a chance to beat ASU. Those that don't may be in for a long night.