An interesting read...

[TheChamps990411]

In the best published study of mass shootings, it was found that 99 had occurred between 1980 and 2010. We know that a number of mass shootings have been stopped by armed citizens. All but one of the “successful” mass shootings occurred in areas where armed citizens are banned. A comparison of mass shootings stopped by 911 response vs mass shootings stopped by citizens indicates that when citizens are able to stop the killing, they prevent 84 percent of the deaths.
Mass shooting study link
Mass shootings Stopped by Armed Citizens
Armed Citizen stopped shooting average 2.3 deaths, 911 response average, 14.3 deaths (84% reduction)
Definitions and precise numbers vary by researcher, but it is clear that at least 10 percent of mass shootings are stopped by armed citizens. I believe this is the minimum number, the actual number may be much higher, because when a citizen stops an intended mass shooting early, it never becomes a successful mass shooting and may never become a news story of note. For example, in the recent Clackamas Mall shooting, an armed citizen may well have cut the killings short without firing a shot. While we can never be certain, a large percentage of mass shooters stop killing and commit suicide when they are confronted with armed force.
Clackamas CCW video
The problem of quantifying mass shootings stopped by armed citizens is exacerbated by the inablility to know the intentions of a dead attacker. Some attackers leave notes, making their intentions clear, as did the Santa Clara shooter in 1999, or the AT&T store shooter in 2010. Some announce their intentions, or otherwise indicate that they intend to kill many people. But these are the rare cases. If an attacker attempts to kill many, but is stopped at the beginning of the attack or after a few shots are fired, it is impossible to know if a mass killing was stopped, or if it was only one of thousands of more ordinary crimes stopped by armed citizens.
Santa Clara Shooting Link
AT&T Store shooting Link
It is clear that the number of mass shootings has decreased as the number of armed citizens has increased. Three decades ago, there were very few citizens with concealed carry permits. Most states did not allow concealed carry. The increase in concealed carry states mostly occurred after 1994, and the bulk of concealed carry permits have been issued after the turn of the new millenium. Even today, less than 2.6% of the population has concealed carry permits, and 30 percent of the population of the country live in states where it is very difficult to obtain a permit, or in the case of Illinois, impossible. The first decade of the millennia showed a remarkable drop in mass shootings, a 44 percent reduction, according to Grant Duwe, a criminologist with the Minnesota Department of Corrections . These numbers are compatible with research published in 1999, that showed a drop in mass shootings with increased concealed carry permits.
Growth of CCW permits:
Current number of CCW permits:
Mass shooting study link
Mass shootings in gun free zones link
Link to paper
While it is too early in this decade to determine if the trend will continue, reducing the number of places that ban armed citizens will likely result in more citizens being able to stop the mass shootings in the early stages, sometimes before any innocents are killed.

 

[BigErnMcCracken]

Haha, "gun-nuttery.com" Sounds about right. Impeccably sourced, guy. And the Free Republic too. Anything you could find on Stormfront that's worth reading?

 

[Kitaman]

They need to identify what happened before 1980.

 

[superjohn]

Wow, I feel sorry for the original poster.

 

[huskyharry]

Champs put a lot of time into his research and post. I think that some degree of gun reform is necessary but you are all embarrassing yourselves with the one-line insults and witticisms in retort. How about actually using logic in an intelligible reply?

 

[superjohn]

You call that research, posting a bunch of links a couple of which don't work and the ones that do are flat out lies and propaganda. There is a reason BigErn said the original poster would be sighting Stormfront next.

 

[mauconnfan]

I haven't said much and still don't have anything on guns.........nothing I can do so why waste my print and breath........that's just me. I appreciate the different points of view and admire the knowledge of everyone regarding guns, laws, rights etc etc.......I know little or nothing about guns and don't care to have one.

The point missing here was 2 fold.......a mother who had too many guns with a child who was ill mentally in some regard, how in depth who knows but from what we read there were reasons to believe he needed more help than he was getting. Also we have what I see as a mother, who for whatever reason thought it was okay to bring this mentally challenged kid to the shooting gallery which is absurd at best. Then we have a mother who talked about her problems openly at a local establishment/bar 3-4 times a week (the Place) when she should have been home with him or making tome for him as much as possible. While the guns played a huge part in the end result, the parenting played the majority of the part if I see it correctly as did society in general, as they all accepted him to be "different" rather than making sure he was okay. He, Adam, is still the killer but I'm guessing he was reaching out to someone and no one was listening close enough.........the guns were just there!!

 

[APA]

In the best published study of mass shootings, it was found that 99 had occurred between 1980 and 2010. We know that a number of mass shootings have been stopped by armed citizens. All but one of the “successful” mass shootings occurred in areas where armed citizens are banned. A comparison of mass shootings stopped by 911 response vs mass shootings stopped by citizens indicates that when citizens are able to stop the killing, they prevent 84 percent of the deaths.
Mass shooting study link
Mass shootings Stopped by Armed Citizens
Armed Citizen stopped shooting average 2.3 deaths, 911 response average, 14.3 deaths (84% reduction)
Definitions and precise numbers vary by researcher, but it is clear that at least 10 percent of mass shootings are stopped by armed citizens. I believe this is the minimum number, the actual number may be much higher, because when a citizen stops an intended mass shooting early, it never becomes a successful mass shooting and may never become a news story of note. For example, in the recent Clackamas Mall shooting, an armed citizen may well have cut the killings short without firing a shot. While we can never be certain, a large percentage of mass shooters stop killing and commit suicide when they are confronted with armed force.
Clackamas CCW video
The problem of quantifying mass shootings stopped by armed citizens is exacerbated by the inablility to know the intentions of a dead attacker. Some attackers leave notes, making their intentions clear, as did the Santa Clara shooter in 1999, or the AT&T store shooter in 2010. Some announce their intentions, or otherwise indicate that they intend to kill many people. But these are the rare cases. If an attacker attempts to kill many, but is stopped at the beginning of the attack or after a few shots are fired, it is impossible to know if a mass killing was stopped, or if it was only one of thousands of more ordinary crimes stopped by armed citizens.
Santa Clara Shooting Link
AT&T Store shooting Link
It is clear that the number of mass shootings has decreased as the number of armed citizens has increased. Three decades ago, there were very few citizens with concealed carry permits. Most states did not allow concealed carry. The increase in concealed carry states mostly occurred after 1994, and the bulk of concealed carry permits have been issued after the turn of the new millenium. Even today, less than 2.6% of the population has concealed carry permits, and 30 percent of the population of the country live in states where it is very difficult to obtain a permit, or in the case of Illinois, impossible. The first decade of the millennia showed a remarkable drop in mass shootings, a 44 percent reduction, according to Grant Duwe, a criminologist with the Minnesota Department of Corrections . These numbers are compatible with research published in 1999, that showed a drop in mass shootings with increased concealed carry permits.
Growth of CCW permits:
Current number of CCW permits:
Mass shooting study link
Mass shootings in gun free zones link
Link to paper
While it is too early in this decade to determine if the trend will continue, reducing the number of places that ban armed citizens will likely result in more citizens being able to stop the mass shootings in the early stages, sometimes before any innocents are killed.

This is somewhere between insanity and stupidity.

 

[Dougsts]

You call that research, posting a bunch of links a couple of which don't work and the ones that do are flat out lies and propaganda. There is a reason BigErn said the original poster would be sighting Stormfront next.

For a while I have been thinking that you must be a high school student, now I am pretty sure you haven't even made it out of the 7th grade yet.

 

[superjohn]

For a while I have been thinking that you must be a high school student, now I am pretty sure you haven't even made it out of the 7th grade yet.

Posting late at night plays tricks on the brain, clearly meant citing instead of sighting. We post thoughts here, I normally type them on my phone in a matter of seconds, give me a break with the grammar police nonsense. I can't comment on your level of schooling or any of your posts for that matter, never noticed one of your posts. Full disclosure I never graduated the 6th grade, no time for school when you are doing all that ducking.

 

[ctchamps]

I haven't said much and still don't have anything on guns.........nothing I can do so why waste my print and breath........that's just me. I appreciate the different points of view and admire the knowledge of everyone regarding guns, laws, rights etc etc.......I know little or nothing about guns and don't care to have one.

The point missing here was 2 fold.......a mother who had too many guns with a child who was ill mentally in some regard, how in depth who knows but from what we read there were reasons to believe he needed more help than he was getting. Also we have what I see as a mother, who for whatever reason thought it was okay to bring this mentally challenged kid to the shooting gallery which is absurd at best. Then we have a mother who talked about her problems openly at a local establishment/bar 3-4 times a week (the Place) when she should have been home with him or making tome for him as much as possible. While the guns played a huge part in the end result, the parenting played the majority of the part if I see it correctly as did society in general, as they all accepted him to be "different" rather than making sure he was okay. He, Adam, is still the killer but I'm guessing he was reaching out to someone and no one was listening close enough.........the guns were just there!!

You are becoming one of my favorite posters!

 

[BigErnMcCracken]

http://www.tnr.com/blog/plank/111263/meet-john-lott-the-man-who-wants-teachers-carry-guns#

 

[UConnSwag11]

take a look at this http://ssristories.com/index.php?p=school ... then we can get back to posting about basketball and sports... we have a game tonight lets keep it rollin'

 

[Dogbreath2U]

I haven't said much and still don't have anything on guns.........nothing I can do so why waste my print and breath........that's just me. I appreciate the different points of view and admire the knowledge of everyone regarding guns, laws, rights etc etc.......I know little or nothing about guns and don't care to have one.

The point missing here was 2 fold.......a mother who had too many guns with a child who was ill mentally in some regard, how in depth who knows but from what we read there were reasons to believe he needed more help than he was getting. Also we have what I see as a mother, who for whatever reason thought it was okay to bring this mentally challenged kid to the shooting gallery which is absurd at best. Then we have a mother who talked about her problems openly at a local establishment/bar 3-4 times a week (the Place) when she should have been home with him or making tome for him as much as possible. While the guns played a huge part in the end result, the parenting played the majority of the part if I see it correctly as did society in general, as they all accepted him to be "different" rather than making sure he was okay. He, Adam, is still the killer but I'm guessing he was reaching out to someone and no one was listening close enough.........the guns were just there!!

If the guns were not there, what would have happened? Probably nothing like what occurred, probably nothing outside of the home, and possibly nothing so violent in the home.

The mother's having the guns and introducing them to her son were, in my opinion, tragically horrible judgments on her part. Her getting out of the house when she was apparently with him 24/7 was probably how she was surviving. How we can help isolated kids like him is a very difficult problem. The brain wiring of kids like him is the primary problem, IMHO. Being the parent of an autistic child is more difficult than most of us could imagine. I read somewhere that 80% of the parents of autistic children end up divorced from the horrible stress of it, from the all-consuming nature of such care.

 

[housekeys]

...
Definitions and precise numbers vary by researcher, but it is clear that at least 10 percent of mass shootings are stopped by armed citizens. ...

It should also be clear that at most 100% of mass shootings are started be armed citizens.

 

[Dogbreath2U]

If the guns were not there, what would have happened? Probably nothing like what occurred, probably nothing outside of the home, and possibly nothing so violent in the home.

The mother's having the guns and introducing them to her son were, in my opinion, tragically horrible judgments on her part. Her getting out of the house when she was apparently with him 24/7 was probably how she was surviving. How we can help isolated kids like him is a very difficult problem. The brain wiring of kids like him is the primary problem, IMHO. Being the parent of an autistic child is more difficult than most of us could imagine. I read somewhere that 80% of the parents of autistic children end up divorced from the horrible stress of it, from the all-consuming nature of such care.

I read today that the report that Lanza had been diagnosed with Asperger's has not been confirmed and this could be another inaccuracy. There apparently has already been an upsurge in parents wanting Asperger-type kids removed from their children's schools like they are all timebombs. The fact is that they are much more likely to be the victims of mistreatment than the perpetrators. Whatever was going on in Adam Lanza's mind, it was not explained by Asperger's.

 

[jorge34]

I haven't said much and still don't have anything on guns.........nothing I can do so why waste my print and breath........that's just me. I appreciate the different points of view and admire the knowledge of everyone regarding guns, laws, rights etc etc.......I know little or nothing about guns and don't care to have one.

The point missing here was 2 fold.......a mother who had too many guns with a child who was ill mentally in some regard, how in depth who knows but from what we read there were reasons to believe he needed more help than he was getting. Also we have what I see as a mother, who for whatever reason thought it was okay to bring this mentally challenged kid to the shooting gallery which is absurd at best. Then we have a mother who talked about her problems openly at a local establishment/bar 3-4 times a week (the Place) when she should have been home with him or making tome for him as much as possible. While the guns played a huge part in the end result, the parenting played the majority of the part if I see it correctly as did society in general, as they all accepted him to be "different" rather than making sure he was okay. He, Adam, is still the killer but I'm guessing he was reaching out to someone and no one was listening close enough.........the guns were just there!!

Like this a lot. People tossing around lots of "bans," mostly for political reasons.

But no talk of banning bad parenting.

 

[8893]

I haven't said much and still don't have anything on guns.........nothing I can do so why waste my print and breath........that's just me. I appreciate the different points of view and admire the knowledge of everyone regarding guns, laws, rights etc etc.......I know little or nothing about guns and don't care to have one.

The point missing here was 2 fold.......a mother who had too many guns with a child who was ill mentally in some regard, how in depth who knows but from what we read there were reasons to believe he needed more help than he was getting. Also we have what I see as a mother, who for whatever reason thought it was okay to bring this mentally challenged kid to the shooting gallery which is absurd at best. Then we have a mother who talked about her problems openly at a local establishment/bar 3-4 times a week (the Place) when she should have been home with him or making tome for him as much as possible. While the guns played a huge part in the end result, the parenting played the majority of the part if I see it correctly as did society in general, as they all accepted him to be "different" rather than making sure he was okay. He, Adam, is still the killer but I'm guessing he was reaching out to someone and no one was listening close enough.........the guns were just there!!

I don't disagree about her apparent lack of judgment in exposing him to guns and leaving them where he might gain access to them, as well as letting him be obsessed with violent video games, but I'm not sure about some of the rest of this Mau. From what I've seen and heard, she stopped by the local establishment 2-3 nights a week to pick up a take-out salad and often stayed for a drink or two, but rarely discussed any problems, including him. To the contrary, most of the folks there say she was an upbeat, positive, generous person who often helped others, and that she devoted her life to taking care of the kid. The most I've heard are a few stray comments to others that she was afraid she was losing him in recent weeks and was trying to get him additional help, either through a psychiatrist (some say it was an effort to explore getting him committed) or at a school in Washington state, where she apparently talked about moving with him so they could live nearby. He was an adult, had a license, and took college courses (which he aced); but he became more and more withdrawn recently, and it sounds like she was trying to find a way to get help for that. Was she supposed to be with him 24/7? I think she was at wit's end herself and needed to get out, but having him at home--refusing to leave, ever--made it like a prison for her, and she needed a way out. I'll bet we find out that that's what she was trying to do, but it was too little, too late--and it may just be that he killed her for her efforts because he didn't like what she wanted to do and felt betrayed by her. Remember, he cut off all communication with his father two years ago when he remarried.

As for society in general, it sounds like other people treated him just fine and saw no signs that he wasn't okay. He just didn't see anyone but his mother in recent years, and not even her in recent weeks apparently, as he stayed in the basement a refused to leave. I'm not sure anyone but her witnessed his downward spiral, and it looks as though he may have killed her when she tried to get help for it.

 

[UConn5]

I have been amazed at the amount of inaccuracy in the reporting of this story. We get more accurate information from incidents that occur halfway across the world more quickly than what we have seen here. Of course some of it was a rush to just publish anything they could...but its been remarkable.

 

[Dogbreath2U]

I have been amazed at the amount of inaccuracy in the reporting of this story. We get more accurate information from incidents that occur halfway across the world more quickly than what we have seen here. Of course some of it was a rush to just publish anything they could...but its been remarkable.

yes, it has been remarkable. The absolute horror of it has driven people to try to fill in blanks. I have been hearing things about his mother trying to get him help through word of mouth, but have not read anything about that. Hard to know what is accurate and what is made up or distorted.

 

[Dogbreath2U]

I don't disagree about her apparent lack of judgment in exposing him to guns and leaving them where he might gain access to them, as well as letting him be obsessed with violent video games, but I'm not sure about some of the rest of this Mau. From what I've seen and heard, she stopped by the local establishment 2-3 nights a week to pick up a take-out salad and often stayed for a drink or two, but rarely discussed any problems, including him. To the contrary, most of the folks there say she was an upbeat, positive, generous person who often helped others, and that she devoted her life to taking care of the kid. The most I've heard are a few stray comments to others that she was afraid she was losing him in recent weeks and was trying to get him additional help, either through a psychiatrist (some say it was an effort to explore getting him committed) or at a school in Washington state, where she apparently talked about moving with him so they could live nearby. He was an adult, had a license, and took college courses (which he aced); but he became more and more withdrawn recently, and it sounds like she was trying to find a way to get help for that. Was she supposed to be with him 24/7? I think she was at wit's end herself and needed to get out, but having him at home--refusing to leave, ever--made it like a prison for her, and she needed a way out. I'll bet we find out that that's what she was trying to do, but it was too little, too late--and it may just be that he killed her for her efforts because he didn't like what she wanted to do and felt betrayed by her. Remember, he cut off all communication with his father two years ago when he remarried.

As for society in general, it sounds like other people treated him just fine and saw no signs that he wasn't okay. He just didn't see anyone but his mother in recent years, and not even her in recent weeks apparently, as he stayed in the basement a refused to leave. I'm not sure anyone but her witnessed his downward spiral, and it looks as though he may have killed her when she tried to get help for it.

The idea of his being forced to leave home and be taken completely out of his extremely narrow comfort zone could have panicked him big time. How that translates into murdering those kids is hard to connect.

 

[mauconnfan]

Admit I don't know the truth and would be happy to double back if wrong.....and I shouldn't assume but media led me there.....and just a strange feeling about the whole mom, dad, brother stuff. I guess we can never know everything but I think I would notice if my son was distant enough to be losing it this bad.....I could be wrong!

 

[8893]

The idea of his being forced to leave home and be taken completely out of his extremely narrow comfort zone could have panicked him big time. How that translates into murdering those kids is hard to connect.

I think we can agree that the whole thing is hard to connect, because we're trying to find reason in the actions of a lunatic. That said, as long as we're playing armchair psychiatrists, I've read unsubstantiated reports that the mother volunteered there in the past, and speculation that he may have been jealous that she loved the kids there more than she loved him. Or maybe he bore some grudge for something that happened when he was a student there. No matter the warped motive, there's little doubt in my mind that after weeks in a windowless basement playing these video killing games, the school was an opportunity to feed that bloodthirst and take it to another level, with easy, real-life targets.

Admit I don't know the truth and would be happy to double back if wrong.....and I shouldn't assume but media led me there.....and just a strange feeling about the whole mom, dad, brother stuff. I guess we can never know everything but I think I would notice if my son was distant enough to be losing it this bad.....I could be wrong!

No question. Hard to imagine. Thank God I've never had a kid with these issues, much less been his sole caregiver and only human contact. She needed help, but given that he was an adult, I don't know what her options were beyond having him committed or arrested. But not having assault weapons and enough ammunition to kill a village would seem to have been a common sense thing to do in any event here.