An Argument for PP and GDL

[mattp]

Well it sounds like PP favors the pro-style regardless. So even if GDL isn't here, I don't think we are going to go back to the type of schemes that we are used to under Edsall. ..

Edsall's offense was pro style. It was a little old fashioned, but this whole "he's putting in a pro-style offense so he needs his guys" argument is total nonsense. The only real change he made was to the offensive line to a zone blocking scheme. It's possible that in a year or two, with their own guys, they can get the Oline back to where it was two years ago, but what would have been the point? We always had a great OLine, why tear it down and start from scratch in the first place? I think you could argue we have the best team talent we've ever had overall, so why waste two years rebuilding something that worked fine to begin with? Edsall/Foley consistently sent lightly/non recruited Olinemen to the NFL almost every year, so how can you say Foley's style of Oline wasn't working? Why would the new scheme attract more talent than one that actually puts kids in the NFL?

 

[FfldCntyFan]

I don't know how many here remember Jack Pardee. He was an All American and later all pro linebacker who became a head coach after he retired (he also was one of Bear Bryant's Junction Boys).

Prior to running into Mouse Davis and the run and shoot in the USFL (after he had already been an NFL head coach), Pardee was a defense first, hard nosed power football proponent. Somehow be became so enamored of a new style that he became a convert, bringing an offense that subsequently has never been able to win a a playoff level to major college football (Houston in the old SWC) and the NFL (Oilers), never looking back at old fashioned defense first, power football (even though that ended up getting him fired from the Oilers).

I believe that DeLeone went under some similar conversion. For a very large part of his career he taught power blocking schemes. Something happened that caused him to toss that philosophy aside, favoring what he is attempting to teach today. I'm not sure what exactly causes a revelation but often when someone has one, they had better hope that it is for some legitimate philosophical change as being so stubborn that you would never consider some happy medium is very dangerous if you may not be absolutely correct in you choice of philosophies.

 

[HistoryMajor]

I don't understand the love affair with the Pro Style offense. I can't prove it but I think it's a fact that teams score more points with the Spread. This is based on my observation and also on the circumstantial evidence that the majority of college teams that use the Spread are exciting, fun to watch and score a lot of points. I can't understand why we cling to what I consider old technology in the college game - i.e. a Pro Style.

 

[UConnDan97]

Well, this thread has pretty much gone the way I should have predicted it to. I was hoping to learn a little more about the nuances that are being changed, but I'm getting more of the "he sucks, change him!"

Zoo: I'm not saying to re-evaluate his past performance. I'm asking to help clarify his vision. Not every change that has been implemented on the team has been bad. We used to play a "Bend-don't-break" defense, but we scrapped that in favor of a high-blitz, high-pressure style defense (that gives up a big one every now and again, but the net average is more effective....and it's even more effective this year than last year, even without Reyes and Martin!).

UCFB: Most of the team won't be his next year. Next year, they will be half his. His first recruiting class will be sophomores. As for the people he may have brought in to fit his system, they are: Chandler Whitmer, Casey Cochran at QB (along with Lagow), and for the OL, it's Samra (who's already seen the field), Levy, Rugg, and next year it's Schafenacker and Hopkins. Are they better? Are they just different? Who has studied any of their stuff so far (besides Samra)? We know that Chandler is the best QB we've had since Danny O, there's no question in my mind.

Everyone else waxing poetic about the Edsall days: I really liked Edsall. I still think he's a very good coach, and there's no doubt in my mind that Maryland will be a winning team with him once he's implemented the system he's comfortable under. He's clearly not a GREAT coach, because he had talent to use from Friedgen but he doesn't coach like Friedgen. The analogy here is the same one. What are the things that PP and GDL are trying to install on the line? What kind of lineman fits the bill? Hell, what kind of running back fits the bill? Three step drops versus five step drops versus shotgun and draw play? These are the things I'm trying to get out of the BY...

...by the way, people conveniently forget that Edsall's first four years here were 4-7, 3-8, 2-9, and 6-6. I really liked Edsall, but let's not make him out to be Vince Lombardi...

 

[Srqhusky]

Dan ill take a stab at it.

I think the o line lacks leadership. I believe we are seeing the void left by moe Petrus. A very solid center. The center runs the blocking scheme in pass protection. He is the director .
This year we went half a season with a center by committee which is hard to establish a leader on the line when everyone is rotating spots.

 

[UConnDan97]

Dan ill take a stab at it.

I think the o line lacks leadership. I believe we are seeing the void left by moe Petrus. A very solid center. The center runs the blocking scheme in pass protection. He is the director .
This year we went half a season with a center by committee which is hard to establish a leader on the line when everyone is rotating spots.

Yeah, I lost my mind when we kept changing Mateas and Bullock back and forth like we were changing underwear! Is it that both of the centers were struggling to call out the protection? Is it a timing thing on the snap? (the offsides calls seemed to be a lot higher to me this year, with many of them being "drive-killers"). All of the above?

 

[mattp]

If you want to know what the zone blocking oline should look like think back to the Mike Shanahan days of the Broncos when Portis would make one cut back and pick up 40 yards. Obviously Elway could drop back and throw it, but I'd say they were basically a running team, and it seems like that's what GDL is trying to put together here. If you remember they definitely had a different type of olineman than a typical smash mouth offense, so yeah, it's possible that our offense will really get clicking if/when GDL gets the players necessary to replicate that. To be honest I actually liked our offense and GDL last year. Obviously we had some huge deficiencies on offense, but I thought he did a pretty good job of making it work. By the end of the year McCombs was settling in and waiting for lanes to open and hitting them, and with arguably the worst BCS starting QB we actually had one of the most effective passing games we've had at UConn since DanO left. I was optimistic going into the season but it seems we've regressed at every offensive position across the board (except TE) despite having what I would say is more talent and experience across the board on offense (except Oline). Logically we should have stepped up from a 60-70s level offense to a 40s-50s level offense and instead we've dropped to basically dead last in everything. We couldn't even move the ball well against UMass

I think they will be back next year, and I hope they do better.

 

[CTBasketball]

I don't come on here often, but here's my two cents:

We won't win big unless he have a scrambling quarterback.

 

[UConnDan97]

If you want to know what the zone blocking oline should look like think back to the Mike Shanahan days of the Broncos when Portis would make one cut back and pick up 40 yards. Obviously Elway could drop back and throw it, but I'd say they were basically a running team, and it seems like that's what GDL is trying to put together here. If you remember they definitely had a different type of olineman than a typical smash mouth offense, so yeah, it's possible that our offense will really get clicking if/when GDL gets the players necessary to replicate that. To be honest I actually liked our offense and GDL last year. Obviously we had some huge deficiencies on offense, but I thought he did a pretty good job of making it work. By the end of the year McCombs was settling in and waiting for lanes to open and hitting them, and with arguably the worst BCS starting QB we actually had one of the most effective passing games we've had at UConn since DanO left. I was optimistic going into the season but it seems we've regressed at every offensive position across the board (except TE) despite having what I would say is more talent and experience across the board on offense (except Oline). Logically we should have stepped up from a 60-70s level offense to a 40s-50s level offense and instead we've dropped to basically dead last in everything. We couldn't even move the ball well against UMass

I think they will be back next year, and I hope they do better.

Yeah, I'm constantly weighing in my mind the loss of Petrus and Ryan versus having Mateas/Bullock and Bennett. My mind says that the combo of Bullock and Bennett should be fine, but it clearly hasn't been to this point. However, it seems we are starting to get a little more time in the pass protection for Whitmer as the season goes on, and when that kid gets the time, he's shown that he can be really really good (don't think about the interception in the endzone against Pitt, please!). He hasn't had a QB rating below 115 since the Rutgers game five games ago, and I feel like the tight ends are finally getting more of a chance in the "seam" routes. But that damned running game seemingly doesn't open up the holes (I don't think it's McCombs' patience, because he certainly showed plenty of it last year, but I could be wrong).

I don't know; if I saw absolutely nothing getting better, then I would say that these two guys have no f#$king vision and that's that. But I do see improvements in certain areas coupled with the decline of other areas. I'm just trying to learn the nuances of the system in order to attempt to figure out where this ship is sailing to... (insert smart-ass comment here _____)

 

[UConnDan97]

I don't come on here often, but here's my two cents:

We won't win big unless he have a scrambling quarterback.

I think that Whitmer has shown he can pick up yards with his legs. He's obviously not Vick, but I don't believe that is a problem for us...

 

[CTBasketball]

I think that Whitmer has shown he can pick up yards with his legs. He's obviously not Vick, but I don't believe that is a problem for us...

Everytime I've seen Whitmer he's trying to throw into double and triple coverage. Why don't we give McEntee a shot? He had better numbers, by far, than Whitmer...

 

[UConnDan97]

Everytime I've seen Whitmer he's trying to throw into double and triple coverage. Why don't we give McEntee a shot? He had better numbers, by far, than Whitmer...

Well, the numbers don't support your argument:

Whitmer 2012: 185 for 309, 2328 yards. 59.9% completion percentage. 122.6 QB rating. 8 TD, 14 INT, sacked 28.

McEntee 2011: 172 for 335, 2210 yards. 51.3% completion percentage. 111.3 QB rating. 12 TD, 8 INT, sacked 37.

Whitmer has thrown more INT's to TD's, but every other stat is much better. He doesn't sit in the pocket as long (hence, the sack numbers, because the OLine didn't get better IMO). He has a higher completion percentage as well as QB rating, by a fair amount.

I liked Johnny Mac, and I think if he was given a lot of time in a pocket, he could be really good regardless of what others might say. But when the line is not-so-good, Johnny falls apart...

 

[BlueDogs]

Main difference is lineman need to be faster in order to read and adjust on the fly on zone blocking scheme. Finding size and exceptionsl speed is hard to come by. It also requires backs with great vision and ability to find seams. It is totally antithetical to a power blocking scheme. The logic while logical does not hold because the pool of qualified big men is small and they will go to name brand institutions. The success UConn had was going power football where you can get size and strength coupled with crisp understood blocking assignments. You can coach technique and execution. You can't coach speed, and vision.

GDL and PP are doing a DNA removal,and are ruining this program.

 

[UConnDan97]

Main difference is lineman need to be faster in order to read and adjust on the fly on zone blocking scheme. Finding size and exceptionsl speed is hard to come by. It also requires backs with great vision and ability to find seams. It is totally antithetical to a power blocking scheme. The logic while logical does not hold because the pool of qualified big men is small and they will go to name brand institutions. The success UConn had was going power football where you can get size and strength coupled with crisp understood blocking assignments. You can coach technique and execution. You can't coach speed, and vision.

GDL and PP are doing a DNA removal,and are ruining this program.

The only thing I'll say counter to this is that the pass protection seems to be getting better (as the running game gets worse). Why is that? And also, under Edsall, we did more than our fair share of guard pulls, which always required foot speed. So why are we lacking foot speed now? These are some of the things that I just cannot reconcile in my mind...

 

[BlueDogs]

The only thing I'll say counter to this is that the pass protection seems to be getting better (as the running game gets worse). Why is that? And also, under Edsall, we did more than our fair share of guard pulls, which always required foot speed. So why are we lacking foot speed now? These are some of the things that I just cannot reconcile in my mind...

I know what you're saying and I don't think it is black and white. You may have a guy or two that have quickness and can pull, but really the issue is as hoc adjustments. You need to move to find a defender if there is not one in your zone, and be able to infer who is not being engaged. In theory it is great and provides flexible scheme to counter complex defensive schemes. But you are asking guys to have vision, quick assessment coupled with the athletic ability to respond on a dime. The zone blocking approach takes the edge and aggression of the lineman. They are analyzing and reacting more than powering off the ball with a clear target. Of course this is all shades of grey. I think these guys have seriously out "thunk" themselves.

 

[husky91]

Both are terrible, awful hires.

But we need both to give strong performances Sat.

I believe that with the right players PP & GDL could do very well. The thing is that the right players would be kids who end up at Alabama, USC, Texas, Notre Dame, Oklahoma and LSU.

 

[huskymedic]

Edsall's offense was pro style. It was a little old fashioned, but this whole "he's putting in a pro-style offense so he needs his guys" argument is total nonsense. The only real change he made was to the offensive line to a zone blocking scheme. It's possible that in a year or two, with their own guys, they can get the Oline back to where it was two years ago, but what would have been the point? We always had a great OLine, why tear it down and start from scratch in the first place? I think you could argue we have the best team talent we've ever had overall, so why waste two years rebuilding something that worked fine to begin with? Edsall/Foley consistently sent lightly/non recruited Olinemen to the NFL almost every year, so how can you say Foley's style of Oline wasn't working? Why would the new scheme attract more talent than one that actually puts kids in the NFL?

Outside of Don Thomas and Will Beatty??

 

[BlueDogs]

There are some really good points being offered up. I think the only way a program that can't attract the 4/5 stars can stand toe to toe is the old fashioned way-- physical and mental domination in the trenches. That means big strong well conditioned lineman with great technique that can grind. It creates a balanced attack that can check speed to some degree Thats how you can get you in the top 25. OU shows at some point elite teams have it all, and that is the real ceiling. We were close to moving into a credible top 25 contender with some more skill Players and QB.

 

[mattp]

Everytime I've seen Whitmer he's trying to throw into double and triple coverage. Why don't we give McEntee a shot? He had better numbers, by far, than Whitmer...

you have to remember last season when a defender got within 2-3 yards (sometimes 5)of McEntee it was a sack. with the way our oline has played he might be pushing 6-8 a game.

 

[mattp]

You need to move to find a defender if there is not one in your zone, and be able to infer who is not being engaged. In theory it is great and provides flexible scheme to counter complex defensive schemes. But you are asking guys to have vision, quick assessment coupled with the athletic ability to respond on a dime. The zone blocking approach takes the edge and aggression of the lineman. They are analyzing and reacting more than powering off the ball with a clear target. Of course this is all shades of grey. I think these guys have seriously out "thunk" themselves.

It's shocking how often Whitmer will be simultaneously chased down by 3 defenders while we have 3 or 4 olinemen standing around looking for someone to block. It seems like guys are getting rushed by two defenders and since they can't decide which to block they freeze. Personally, I liked when our olinemen just went out and pushed guys around, and I think our olinemen probably liked it better and did it better.

 

[mattp]

Outside of Don Thomas and Will Beatty??

We've had a few other guys make it as undrafted free agents. I'm pretty sure Mike Ryan, Keith Gray and two or three others have spent some time in NFL camps. I think Zach Hurd is on the Raiders now. I'm not saying Foley turned out superstar olinemen but he got guys that only had offers from Buffalo into an NFL camp. That's impressive. I think our best bet as a general strategy is the Wisconsin-way of finding big fast local kids and teaching them how to block. It had been our hallmark over the last decade.

 

[UConnDan97]

It's shocking how often Whitmer will be simultaneously chased down by 3 defenders while we have 3 or 4 olinemen standing around looking for someone to block. It seems like guys are getting rushed by two defenders and since they can't decide which to block they freeze. Personally, I liked when our olinemen just went out and pushed guys around, and I think our olinemen probably liked it better and did it better.

This is a sentiment that I have shared, actually. I've been on the "Reinstate Foley" wagon for quite some time. But I don't want to sound like I know it all, because I certainly don't, and I guess I'm just trying to look at this thing from all angles. Passing game better. Running game much worse. What the heck is going on?? But I agree; those moments where the lineman are all around looking like they are waiting for someone to tell them what to do......ughh!!

 

[jdb50]

If you are on a running play you block the first unblocked guy you see as he can blow up the play. It is pretty simple. You engage them and don't let up till the whistle. If you lose them you block the next guy. On Saturday for the next 2 weeks I don't want to see anyone out there on the UConn O-line killing ants while our RB or QB is pile drived into the turf. Let's make a Bowl game! It's up to you O-line now bring it!

 

[jdb50]

J Mac had 4 more TD's and 6 less interceptions. That's a big difference. Taking the 9 more sacks is better than 6 more int's. Whitmer has to get this under control for us to get to 6-6.

 

[Dann]

J Mac had 4 more TD's and 6 less interceptions. That's a big difference. Taking the 9 more sacks is better than 6 more int's. Whitmer has to get this under control for us to get to 6-6.

i would argue that some of whitmers ints are not just middle of game bad throws. no doubt he has to improve but we have him another 2 years, i can see the growth and potential unlike what we could have in jmac. the umass int was a crazy 1. he wont make that throw again ever. it was a welcome to bcs football int if i ever saw 1. late in the rutgers game after the saff put him in a no win situtaion play calling wise rutgers was just waiting for him to press on long passes and go hunting for ducks for example.