Aldo vs. McGregor

[PcketknfNiels]

Dana had to give him the original fight, because Aldo was the champ. No belt = no credibility. But once he (Conor) has the belt, then he's 'protected' so to speak. If Dana allows him to move up in weight and never fight Aldo again, that'll be the weakest of weak moves in that sport.

I'm not saying I'm right, just that I wouldn't be the least bit surprised that I am.

Conor is a draw regardless of whether he has the belt, the only thing UFC is worried about is him getting pasted or dominated on the ground ala Weidman. Doesn't really jive with having him take the first Aldo fight but avoiding a rematch under legitimate pretense.

Going off the assumed premise that the fight was 100% legit, I can speak for myself as a casual UFC (and hardcore boxing fan) that I have no interest in seeing an immediate rematch of a 13-second 1 punch KO.

 

[intlzncster]

Conor is a draw regardless of whether he has the belt, the only thing UFC is worried about is him getting pasted or dominated on the ground ala Weidman. Doesn't really jive with having him take the first Aldo fight but avoiding a rematch under legitimate pretense.

Going off the assumed premise that the fight was 100% legit, I can speak for myself as a casual UFC (and hardcore boxing fan) that I have no interest in seeing an immediate rematch of a 13-second 1 punch KO.

Thing is (I too am a casual UFC fan who's seen Aldo fight a few times), I think Aldo beats him 8 times out of 10. I really think it was a fluke. I want to see if Conor can go the distance with Aldo, sans gift-from-gods.

 

[PcketknfNiels]

Thing is (I too am a casual UFC fan who's seen Aldo fight a few times), I think Aldo beats him 8 times out of 10. I really think it was a fluke. I want to see if Conor can go the distance with Aldo, sans gift-from-gods.

I've seen Aldo fight too, but isn't the knock on him that, especially recently, he fades later into fights? So, you want to see if the guy who won via 1-punch KO can go 5 with a guy who's known for fading deeper into fights?

Also our 2-person sample shows that only 50% of us want to see a rematch. I'm sure the interest level for the first fight was much higher ;-)

 

[Rocktheworld]

I watched the fight in a packed wild wings last night. Standing room only. I keep reading how ufc is dying on this board, but that crowd happens for no other sport.

Would you say boxing is alive and well right now?

 

[BigErnMcCracken]

Thing is (I too am a casual UFC fan who's seen Aldo fight a few times), I think Aldo beats him 8 times out of 10. I really think it was a fluke. I want to see if Conor can go the distance with Aldo, sans gift-from-gods.

Aldo looked beaten before he stepped in the cage. I said out loud before the fight that something looked off with him. 30 seconds later he's dozing. I hope Edgar gets a shot - he's not a kid that's going to wilt in the run up.

 

[Towney007]

Thing is (I too am a casual UFC fan who's seen Aldo fight a few times), I think Aldo beats him 8 times out of 10. I really think it was a fluke. I want to see if Conor can go the distance with Aldo, sans gift-from-gods.

I hate CALLING it a fluke, because Conor's precision is what makes him so good. And that was as surgical as they come. And I really don't care how you do it - but beating the world's absolute best fighter and arguably one of the best of all time with one punch in 13 seconds is an incredible accomplishment.

But talk about *literally* the worst possible scenario for Aldo ever... It's part of why I just have such a hard time getting on the MacGregor bandwagon. He beat Mendes on a two week camp, guys. And didn't really start the fight off very well... at all. He wasn't even that overwhelming in his other fights. Good - certainly. But not exactly a guy who really blew me out of the water.

I've seen almost all of Aldo's US fights and certainly have seen all of Conor's and I really don't think there's much of a comparison to be made. Aldo's better and pretty much everything. And yeah - he's a more accurate striker, too. He just got caught. It happens in MMA, a lot actually. If guys like Matt Serra can KO GSP, then Conor MacGregor can easily KO Jose Aldo. I refuse to call it lucky because it clearly wasn't. But I don't feel like i've seen enough to brand MacGregor as some pale Mike Tyson or something.

As for the rematch though - I really wish people would stop playing the 'DERP THE DERPY DERP WAS 'FRAID, K, I KNOW CUZ LOOK' card. Aldo wasn't afraid of Conor. Dana isn't afraid of giving Aldo a rematch because he's afraid he'd beat Conor, either... I personally think the reason a rematch isn't happening immediately is because of one of two (or both) reasons:

1.) There's legitimate heat between Aldo's management and the UFC.

OR

2.) Dana just doesn't have faith in Aldo-MacGregor II drawing. He's worked overtime to get Conor over as their top guy and with Rousey's brand almost irreparably damaged, he needs that top guy. A lot of top dudes lost this year. Awful year if you're the UFC's marketing agency. You have to give fans the fight they're going to buy into the most and i'm not sure trying to sell a guy who got clipped in 13 seconds as your challenger is gonna do that to Joe Blow fan. As good as Aldo is - he's not the draw a lot of other top guys are.

The wrench here is that Frankie Edgar CLEARLY deserves a title shot. He's beaten everyone. He also represents a huge style issue for Conor. Conor wants that fight. Frankie wants that fight. It makes sense, it's intriguing, it's fresh. What I don't want to see is Conor get through the Edgar fight and just head to the lightweight ranks. His size has been a huge asset as a featherweight. I feel like he's going to be a huge disappointment as a lightweight.

 

[TasteofUConn]

I've seen almost all of Aldo's US fights and certainly have seen all of Conor's and I really don't think there's much of a comparison to be made. Aldo's better and pretty much everything. . . . He just got caught.

The butt hurt is strong with this one.
The classic argument of the Butt Hurt: "He was better, he just got caught."
A lot of guys at the end of their careers "just get caught." Lidell, Henderson, Couture.
Aldo dodged Conor once. He knew he was in trouble. Rogan commented during the intro that Aldo looked nervous. Conor predicted during an interview that Aldo would overreach and get KOed with a counter.

When you're a fan boy, I know it hurts, but, at least at this point in their careers, MacGregor is probably just a better fighter.

 

[PcketknfNiels]

Would you say boxing is alive and well right now?

Boxing is in pretty good shape with the PBC coverage being on so many major networks.

I hate CALLING it a fluke, because Conor's precision is what makes him so good. And that was as surgical as they come. And I really don't care how you do it - but beating the world's absolute best fighter and arguably one of the best of all time with one punch in 13 seconds is an incredible accomplishment.

But talk about *literally* the worst possible scenario for Aldo ever... It's part of why I just have such a hard time getting on the MacGregor bandwagon. He beat Mendes on a two week camp, guys. And didn't really start the fight off very well... at all. He wasn't even that overwhelming in his other fights. Good - certainly. But not exactly a guy who really blew me out of the water.

I've seen almost all of Aldo's US fights and certainly have seen all of Conor's and I really don't think there's much of a comparison to be made. Aldo's better and pretty much everything. And yeah - he's a more accurate striker, too. He just got caught. It happens in MMA, a lot actually. If guys like Matt Serra can KO GSP, then Conor MacGregor can easily KO Jose Aldo. I refuse to call it lucky because it clearly wasn't. But I don't feel like i've seen enough to brand MacGregor as some pale Mike Tyson or something.

As for the rematch though - I really wish people would stop playing the 'DERP THE DERPY DERP WAS 'FRAID, K, I KNOW CUZ LOOK' card. Aldo wasn't afraid of Conor. Dana isn't afraid of giving Aldo a rematch because he's afraid he'd beat Conor, either... I personally think the reason a rematch isn't happening immediately is because of one of two (or both) reasons:

1.) There's legitimate heat between Aldo's management and the UFC.

OR

2.) Dana just doesn't have faith in Aldo-MacGregor II drawing. He's worked overtime to get Conor over as their top guy and with Rousey's brand almost irreparably damaged, he needs that top guy. A lot of top dudes lost this year. Awful year if you're the UFC's marketing agency. You have to give fans the fight they're going to buy into the most and i'm not sure trying to sell a guy who got clipped in 13 seconds as your challenger is gonna do that to Joe Blow fan. As good as Aldo is - he's not the draw a lot of other top guys are.

The wrench here is that Frankie Edgar CLEARLY deserves a title shot. He's beaten everyone. He also represents a huge style issue for Conor. Conor wants that fight. Frankie wants that fight. It makes sense, it's intriguing, it's fresh. What I don't want to see is Conor get through the Edgar fight and just head to the lightweight ranks. His size has been a huge asset as a featherweight. I feel like he's going to be a huge disappointment as a lightweight.

To B: Conor only had 2 weeks to prepare for Mendes as well, that goes both ways.

To B (part 2): December 2015 Aldo may not be the Aldo you remember watching from the past few years. Also, this is an awfully declarative statement to make when one guy just absolutely demolished the other. Why even have the fights if what happens IN THE FIGHT ultimately doesn't matter in your assessment of each fighter?

To I: Pretty much everything you said here is correct.

The butt hurt is strong with this one.
The classic argument of the Butt Hurt: "He was better, he just got caught."
A lot of guys at the end of their careers "just get caught." Lidell, Henderson, Couture.
Aldo dodged Conor once. He knew he was in trouble. Rogan commented during the intro that Aldo looked nervous. Conor predicted during an interview that Aldo would overreach and get KOed with a counter.

When you're a fan boy, I know it hurts, but, at least at this point in their careers, MacGregor is probably just a better fighter.

Basically this.

 

[huskypantz]

Boxing is in pretty good shape with the PBC coverage being on so many major networks.

There is no doubt that the UFC is eating into the future of boxing (fans) but when a sport just had a fight with 4.6 million PPV buys, it's tough to call boxing anything other than alive and well.

 

[intlzncster]

There is no doubt that the UFC is eating into the future of boxing (fans) but when a sport just had a fight with 4.6 million PPV buys, it's tough to call boxing anything other than alive and well.

The question is, how many of those draws will boxing have? That Mayweather fight was a once in a decade, seeing as people have been calling for it for that long.

 

[Towney007]

The butt hurt is strong with this one.
The classic argument of the Butt Hurt: "He was better, he just got caught."
A lot of guys at the end of their careers "just get caught." Lidell, Henderson, Couture.
Aldo dodged Conor once. He knew he was in trouble. Rogan commented during the intro that Aldo looked nervous. Conor predicted during an interview that Aldo would overreach and get KOed with a counter.

When you're a fan boy, I know it hurts, but, at least at this point in their careers, MacGregor is probably just a better fighter.

Well Henderson's still fighting and has been fighting at a high level despite getting 'caught' a zillion times. Boxing's no different. Guys lose to inferior fighters all the time.

As for 'dodging him' - he suffered a rib injury. Was what it was. He's pulled out of fights before due to injury. Not the most durable guy. How that makes him 'scared' I have no idea.

I could care less what Rogan had to say about anything. He's there to play to the homer crowd. You, basically. He's about as credible as this:



I mean, I remember Ronda Rousey predicting how she'd get KO'd against Holm. SHE MUST HAVE BEEN SCUUUURED.

To B: Conor only had 2 weeks to prepare for Mendes as well, that goes both ways.

Conor had a million month jump on conditioning. C'mon. Stop.

To B (part 2): December 2015 Aldo may not be the Aldo you remember watching from the past few years. Also, this is an awfully declarative statement to make when one guy just absolutely demolished the other. Why even have the fights if what happens IN THE FIGHT ultimately doesn't matter in your assessment of each fighter?

Two things, here...

Maybe Aldo's lost a step, but at 29 - that's kind of a jump. Not that fighters haven't at his age - i'm just not sure you can say that. Yet, at least. A lot of chatter around the last fight was that if Aldo won, he was gonna be the guy to move up. I would assume that's gotta be in the cards.

Second, I don't think it's overly declarative at all. I'm making that call based on what's happened IN A LOT OF FIGHTS. Lennox Lewis had better hand speed than Oliver McCall and Hasim Rahman. Probably better conditioning, more power and a better overall feel for fighting. He got knocked out by both. Badly, at that. I don't see why there'd be any reason to think Aldo wouldn't have just as good a chance of doing the same to MacGregor in a rematch.

Again - I'm trying to be clear - I'm not trying to discredit MacGregor, here. You one shot arguably the greatest fighter ever - you're pretty good and you deserve the win and to pretty much do as you please afterwards. But basing an entire skill assessment on one exchange in one fight within the broader sample of a decade is absurd. Jordan's been crossed up. Babe Ruth's been punched out looking. Good fighters get caught by good punches by guys who might not be as good.

 

[Towney007]

The question is, how many of those draws will boxing have? That Mayweather fight was a once in a decade, seeing as people have been calling for it for that long.

Boxing does really well overseas right now. While domestic buys are down here, international buys are way, way, way up and the countries that don't carry ppv's shell out huge money to promoters for big fights (ala Mayweather-Ricky Hatton).

 

[Towney007]

Also the real reason Aldo's not getting a rematch, here. Which is fairly plain to see:

PPV Buys
Aldo vs Faber - 175,000 buys
Aldo vs Mendes - 215,000 buys
Aldo vs Edgar - 330,000 buys
Aldo vs Jung - 180,000 buys
Aldo vs Mendes II - 180,000 buys
That's a five year total of 1,080,000 ppv buys

For Conor
McGregor vs Mendes - 825,000

So....

 

[Chin Diesel]

Also the real reason Aldo's not getting a rematch, here. Which is fairly plain to see:

PPV Buys
Aldo vs Faber - 175,000 buys
Aldo vs Mendes - 215,000 buys
Aldo vs Edgar - 330,000 buys
Aldo vs Jung - 180,000 buys
Aldo vs Mendes II - 180,000 buys
That's a five year total of 1,080,000 ppv buys

For Conor
McGregor vs Mendes - 825,000

So....

Which was one of my points at the beginning of the thread. Talent aside, Aldo can't carry a card on his name.

 

[intlzncster]

Which was one of my points at the beginning of the thread. Talent aside, Aldo can't carry a card on his name.

Which is another thing that blows about fighting/boxing. You don't necessarily get to see the 'best' guys go at it, just the most marketable. jmo anyway

 

[BleedHuskyBlu]

Also the real reason Aldo's not getting a rematch, here. Which is fairly plain to see:

PPV Buys
Aldo vs Faber - 175,000 buys
Aldo vs Mendes - 215,000 buys
Aldo vs Edgar - 330,000 buys
Aldo vs Jung - 180,000 buys
Aldo vs Mendes II - 180,000 buys
That's a five year total of 1,080,000 ppv buys

For Conor
McGregor vs Mendes - 825,000

So....

And this video is why McGregor is a box office fighter. I dont know why every UFC/Boxer doesnt run their mouth like McGregor and Floyd.

 

[noeynox]

And this video is why McGregor is a box office fighter. I dont know why every UFC/Boxer doesnt run their mouth like McGregor and Floyd.

martial arts, from a young age teaches respect for your opponent and discipline. I think most guys would just be uncomfortable carrying on like that. McGregor is entertaining though and he understands the power of self promotion, and willing to live with the consequences of what just happened to Rousey, to cash in the short term. Its smart business.

 

[PcketknfNiels]

The question is, how many of those draws will boxing have? That Mayweather fight was a once in a decade, seeing as people have been calling for it for that long.

Typically more like a "once every 2-3 years" type of thing. Mayweather Canelo did huge business, Oscar did huge business with both Floyd and Pac, a few of the guys coming up currently will establish themselves as big time draws.

The dirty little secret that UFC fans typically neglect to mention is that, outside of Rousey and now recently Conor's fights, buy rates for the sport have been tanking over the last 2 years.

 

[PcketknfNiels]

Well Henderson's still fighting and has been fighting at a high level despite getting 'caught' a zillion times. Boxing's no different. Guys lose to inferior fighters all the time.



Conor had a million month jump on conditioning. C'mon. Stop.



Two things, here...

Maybe Aldo's lost a step, but at 29 - that's kind of a jump. Not that fighters haven't at his age - i'm just not sure you can say that. Yet, at least. A lot of chatter around the last fight was that if Aldo won, he was gonna be the guy to move up. I would assume that's gotta be in the cards.

Second, I don't think it's overly declarative at all. I'm making that call based on what's happened IN A LOT OF FIGHTS. Lennox Lewis had better hand speed than Oliver McCall and Hasim Rahman. Probably better conditioning, more power and a better overall feel for fighting. He got knocked out by both. Badly, at that. I don't see why there'd be any reason to think Aldo wouldn't have just as good a chance of doing the same to MacGregor in a rematch.

Again - I'm trying to be clear - I'm not trying to discredit MacGregor, here. You one shot arguably the greatest fighter ever - you're pretty good and you deserve the win and to pretty much do as you please afterwards. But basing an entire skill assessment on one exchange in one fight within the broader sample of a decade is absurd. Jordan's been crossed up. Babe Ruth's been punched out looking. Good fighters get caught by good punches by guys who might not be as good.

Boxing actually is different, you don't see clearly superior fighters being caught nearly as much in the sport.


Saying Conor had "a million month jump on conditioning" is a gross overstatement. Had he been planning to fight before Mendes? Sure. He still had to throw away a lot of what his training camp's gameplan was based around, and surely Mendes was regularly training even without a fight imminently planned.

Aldo also hadn't fought in 14 months, and in the time was both hurt and has been talking about wanting to get out of the fight game soon.

Lennox Lewis famously didn't take the first Hasim Rahman fight seriously, so I wouldn't say that was nearly the same situation as the Aldo/Conor fight. Lewis also didn't get 1 punch KO'd in either fight, and he's always been considered a bit chinny.


You're plainly coming off as either a guy who is a huge fan of Aldo or doesn't like Conor (either in ring or personality wise). That's your right, just don't do it at the cost of acting like what actually happened in their fight doesn't matter.

 

[Towney007]

Boxing actually is different, you don't see clearly superior fighters being caught nearly as much in the sport.

Not even close to true.

Foreman KO'd Moorer
Rahman KO'd Lewis
Sanders KO'd Klitchko
Brewster KO'd Klitchko

And that's not even getting into decisions, really...

And that's like... just in a little over one decade in one division and i'm spotting everyone Douglas-Tyson, here. Heck, you could go back to the 1800's and there's a colossal upset at or near the top regularly from Fitzimmons knocking out Corbett, Tunney beating Dempsey, Willard beating Johnson, Schmeiling beating Louis, Braddock beating Baer, Spinks beating Ali...

Point is it happens - probably about about to close to the same clip it does in MMA. It's skilled dudes hitting each other in the face. Someone connects the right way at any given point in the fight, you're going down. Simple as that.

surely Mendes was regularly training even without a fight imminently planned.

There's a huge - err - colossal difference between casual training and actual fight preparation - so saying MacGregor having a jump is a 'gross overstatement' isn't. It's just a fact.

Lennox Lewis famously didn't take the first Hasim Rahman fight seriously, so I wouldn't say that was nearly the same situation as the Aldo/Conor fight. Lewis also didn't get 1 punch KO'd in either fight, and he's always been considered a bit chinny.

Aldo also hadn't fought in 14 months, and in the time was both hurt and has been talking about wanting to get out of the fight game soon.

Sure, fair enough points on both. Doesn't make them inferior fighters to the guys they lost to. Lewis got the chance to get his belt. Doesn't look like Aldo will get his. It's too bad because I think given past precedent and track record that he deserves it. I also understand why he doesn't.

You're plainly coming off as either a guy who is a huge fan of Aldo or doesn't like Conor (either in ring or personality wise). That's your right, just don't do it at the cost of acting like what actually happened in their fight doesn't matter.

I like both guys quite a bit. No one's saying 'it didn't matter,' because it clearly does for a variety of reasons. But it still is what it is - one exchange of blows in the broad sample of a zillion over the course of a lot of fights in both fighter's careers. I just think Aldo's the better fighter based off the totality of what i've seen - and one exchange in one fight in the broad sample isn't going to change that. Yet, at least.

As for me not liking MacGregor's personality - I'm not sure where you're getting that from. I haven't said anything about it.

 

[Towney007]

The dirty little secret that UFC fans typically neglect to mention is that, outside of Rousey and now recently Conor's fights, buy rates for the sport have been tanking over the last 2 years.

I'd say generally speaking your right. Here's your last 10 years:

2005 averaged 158,000 buys (6 events)
2006 averaged 444,000 buys (12 events)
2007 averaged 383,000 buys (13 events)
2008 averaged 701,000 buys (13 events)
2009 averaged 579,000 buys (14 events)
2010 averaged 561,000 buys (16 events)
2011 averaged 405,000 buys (16 events)
2012 averaged 448,000 buys (14 events)
2013 averaged 441,000 buys (13 events)
2014 averaged 253,000 buys (14 events)
2015 averaged 595,00 buys (12 events) MacGregor/Aldo in there...

They've bounced back nicely and should continue to do so, but the big issue is that Dana has had a combination of guys retiring, guys getting hurt, guys going nuts, or guys just flat out getting clipped. And then it just kind of snowballed.

-Lidell stopped fighting
-Lesnar jumped to the WWE
-GSP is ostensibly finished fighting forever
-Silva got KO'd bad. Then broke his leg and was out.
-Jones did crack

Weidman was beginning to turn a corner as a draw, but he just lost to Rockhold. Rousey's absolutely a draw, but she got smoked by Holm. Aldo, Dillashaw and Johnson are maybe the sport's most talented guys - but they don't draw worth a . Then there's guys who would probably draw if there was anyone for them to actually fight... like Cain Velazquez... Cowboy has potential and that lightweight division is stacked with talent - but none of them outside of him are really marketable - and I think that's part of the reason Dana's so hot to trot on letting MacGregor move up. That whole division goes like 10 guys deep but no one draws a dime.

So a lot of things going on all at once, really. Dana's got no choice but to go for the short money because the long term build outs haven't worked.