A Conscious Design by the NCAA to Allow More Physical Play and Therefore Call Less Fouls in the Final Four?

[Way We Were]

I'm sticking to what I had previously said-Friday night's loss looked more like school yard ball/street ball than what we've previously been used to. Did the NCAA give instructions directly or indirectly to to the Refs to "let them play" or were the Refs being intimidated by Staley's behavior - In any event I don't like this form of the game. Further was Geno right to be upset and was his apology warranted or is he deserving of an apology. Maybe both!

 

[Padutch5]

I don't understand why ESPN thinks Dee Kantner adds much of anything. The announcers know the officiating rules as do most knowledgeable fans.

Dee Kanter is not going to say that the officiating is one-sided or unfair, whether it is or isn't. She's a paid expert for ESPN. What's she going to say, "One team is getting hosed by the refs?" It would be her last gig.

I was appalled to see Dee as the “expert”. She was one of the worst refs. Whenever we saw her appear to ref a UCONN. Game we all cringed.

 

[BRS24]

So here's my idea - n 90 minutes, we'll see what kind of game is called. If I were Cori or Dawn, I'm not sure I'd know how to prepare, as there's been a lot of dialogue about the physicalness and lack of calls, so buckle up.

 

[Centerstream]

So here's my idea - n 90 minutes, we'll see what kind of game is called. If I were Cori or Dawn, I'm not sure I'd know how to prepare, as there's been a lot of dialogue about the physicalness and lack of calls, so buckle up.

Have the 3 refs been named yet? Huge factor IMO, but I'm still not going to watch the game.

 

[FanSince17]

While UCONN fans will watch their team play anywhere and anytime, this style of play will not grow the game for the general public. It encourages rule violations and injuries. There is no beauty to the game, no elegance. The question is, do the people who make the decisions really care about the game or just attendance, TV audience, merchandising etc.? In order to fix this, something different has to be done. It has to be through the network or the sponsors. It has to be a grass roots movement. The NCAA are a bunch of womens basketball morons.

I think it’s easier than that. It’s about rules. Firstly, you enforce the rules that are already in the rule book. Secondly, you make necessary changes to the rules. Everything else will follow. The game will be fun to watch and fun to play.
Guru of go: Westhead recruiting Gathers and Kimble. They thought his game film was a hoax. “You mean we’ll play like this”.

 

[BBallF]

I think it’s easier than that. It’s about rules. Firstly, you enforce the rules that are already in the rule book. Secondly, you make necessary changes to the rules. Everything else will follow. The game will be fun to watch and fun to play.
Guru of go: Westhead recruiting Gathers and Kimble. They thought his game film was a hoax. “You mean we’ll play like this”.

Problem is they don’t enforce the rules. Someone or some entity is telling the refs to let them play a euphemism for playground ball. Of course at my playground if somebody fouled somebody else the way Sarah was fouled, there would be blood.

 

[BBallF]

So here's my idea - n 90 minutes, we'll see what kind of game is called. If I were Cori or Dawn, I'm not sure I'd know how to prepare, as there's been a lot of dialogue about the physicalness and lack of calls, so buckle up.

Dawn will try to ensure she gets a let them play beat them up game. It’s her MO. Watch her with the refs. If she doesn’t get her way she will scream bloody murder if the game is not a blow out. That has been my problem with all of what happened. It deflected attention away from the fact that she consistently crosses the line and no one dares challenge her for it.

 

[ERWUC65]

Dawn was the master strategist in this match, assigning her two fastest players to face guard Azzi and Sarah and take them out of the game, knowing that without them, UConn was vulnerable. While this is technically legal, it is not basketball as the two players assigned with this task are not participating in the game as it was designed. Perhaps Geno was aware of this possibility, but as he stated, knew of this vulnerability and had no solution. In retrospect, the lack of a qualified big (Serah was a big disappointment and Jana cannot operate at pace) and any other player with a Paige like ability to rally the team was the defining factor and thus precipitating the inevitable conclusion.

 

[BRS24]

Have the 3 refs been named yet? Huge factor IMO, but I'm still not going to watch the game.

Per ESPN page (and yes, there should be a third name there, maybe once the box score goes live) -

Referee: Gina Cross
Referee: Tiffany Bird

 

[Centerstream]

Gina Cross was also a ref in last year's NC game. 😲

 

[Jalan2121]

I watched all the semi finals and the final. Completely agree that the whistles were swallowed in all the games. After first quarter in SC -UCLA game coach Staley told Holly Rose that she told her team to be more physical and disruptive. Boy were they. It didn’t work. But for every foul called against SC there were 3 others committed. Blatant knockdowns, shoving hacking and grabbing. Not the type of game we’ve watched all season. Not in SEC, ACC, Big Ten nor Big East. In all three games the wildly inconsistent referees impacted the games. WNBA is sometimes a pushing and shoving match. The men’s game is closer to hockey. They were not enjoyable to watch.

 

[TAK]

In last year’s title game against UConn, Dawn was caught on camera dropping a high volume of F-bombs. In today’s title game I did not catch any F-bombs from her. Did I miss some? Did Dawn curb her language because of Geno’s comments? Or perhaps the camera wasn’t on her as much?

 

[eastmill]

Not blaming the refs at all as we shot poorly. But if physical play is permitted, even encouraged, then why did USC get so many more fouls called in their favor than UCONN? I mean, USC supposedly plays in a physical conference all year long so you would expect them to be more physical than UCONN. I thought ESPN failed to show replays on some UCONN fouls that seemed ticky-tack. Allie was called for one outside the play and I don't recall a replay being shown. Look, we probably lose the game anyway the way we were shooting but Geno's complaint may be valid. His comments after the 3rd quarter suggested he felt the refs were intimidated by Dawn's constant badgering. As he said in so many words, unless you're on the sideline you have no idea what's going on (on the USC sideline).

In the history of college sports,there was only one USC,and they weren’t playing this weekend.

 

[Skiblets]

Lurker here. But have been watching these games since the first natty and watch both the men’s and rhe women’s teams.

The refereeing in the women’s game has always been atrocious. I mean the most head scratching wtf calls you’ll ever see

It holds the women’s game back IMO.

 

[HuskyNan]

Lurker here. But have been watching these games since the first natty and watch both the men’s and rhe women’s teams.

The refereeing in the women’s game has always been atrocious. I mean the most head scratching wtf calls you’ll ever see

It holds the women’s game back IMO.

a decade or two ago, people were saying that refs hadn’t adjusted to the increased speed and athleticism of the women’s game so a lot of anticipatory fouls were called. The pendulum seems to have swung back the other way. Hopefully they can find equilibrium

 

[WiseWillie]

In 2013, the NCAA instituted rule 10-14 prohibiting “hand checking” that impeded the movement of players on offense. It was mostly applied to perimeter defense and was clearly designed to improve scoring and eliminate games degenerating into wrestling matches or a constant parade to the foul line.

Unfortunately, the NCAA did not prohibit “Bear hugs” and other wrestling moves that we often see in the post. Perhaps it’s time for coaches and administrators to consider another change that would be in the interests of the players, coaches and fans, promoting a faster, higher scoring and far more watchable brand of basketball.

Thank you olddude. It is absolutely time for the NCAA and coaches to collaborate on a comprehensive review of the entire rules surrounding the women's game.

Why the women's game and not the men's? First, it is not a mens's game. Women don't dunk the ball (ok maybe there's one somewhere, sometime) but that is not what people pay to see. The women's game is a game of skill, technical ability, ball movement and overall what is referred to as "basketball IQ". It is not - and SHOULD NOT - be a game of sheer physical power.

The game of basketball, but especially the women's game, is a mix of speed, agility and not flash but finesse. Geno and CD have made UConn the most successful women's basketball program ever because they have highlighted the "pure state" of the sport focusing on team coordination, precise passing and fast-paced offense sets and a deliberate, skilled one on one and pressing defense. This does not mean that necessary toughness is not required. But it's not deliberate holding an opponent that was most evident in the Final Four this year. It's blending skills with intensity.

Bottom line: This entire idea of "physicality" in the women's game needs a major overhaul in the rules book if the NCAA - or WNBA - wants to expand the women's game.

 

[oldude]

Thank you olddude. It is absolutely time for the NCAA and coaches to collaborate on a comprehensive review of the entire rules surrounding the women's game.

Why the women's game and not the men's? First, it is not a mens's game. Women don't dunk the ball (ok maybe there's one somewhere, sometime) but that is not what people pay to see. The women's game is a game of skill, technical ability, ball movement and overall what is referred to as "basketball IQ". It is not - and SHOULD NOT - be a game of sheer physical power.

The game of basketball, but especially the women's game, is a mix of speed, agility and not flash but finesse. Geno and CD have made UConn the most successful women's basketball program ever because they have highlighted the "pure state" of the sport focusing on team coordination, precise passing and fast-paced offense sets and a deliberate, skilled one on one and pressing defense. This does not mean that necessary toughness is not required. But it's not deliberate holding an opponent that was most evident in the Final Four this year. It's blending skills with intensity.

Bottom line: This entire idea of "physicality" in the women's game needs a major overhaul in the rules book if the NCAA - or WNBA - wants to expand the women's game.

You point to something I have been thinking about since the SC game, that probably bothered Geno more than anything. In a sense, he views himself and his team as the purest form of basketball and how it should be played. Playing that game the way SC wanted it played was undoubtedly painful. In the end I suspect Geno felt a little helpless, and that, more than anything else, animated his actions after the game.

 

[BRS24]

Now this would be a great question to ask Dee Kantner - during the NCAAT, do the officials get together after the first game of each round (1st, sweet 16, semi) and review the level of officiating and make adjustments? I mean, it seemed as there was a significant change between the two semi games and yesterday's final.

 

[WiseWillie]

Now this would be a great question to ask Dee Kantner - during the NCAAT, do the officials get together after the first game of each round (1st, sweet 16, semi) and review the level of officiating and make adjustments? I mean, it seemed as there was a significant change between the two semi games and yesterday's final.

Ask Kantner? No way. What do you expect her to say? She's not going to stick her neck out. No, the only way to find out if that was the case in the FF or at any time is to get a "whistleblower" to come forward.

 

[reelfan]

Agreed with previous three opinions. Geno is a basketball purist, playing a finess game without grabbing, pushing, sharp elbows, pawing,etc. Sure is distressing to see finals games turning into WWE.

 

[ME Husky Fan]

Conspiracy? Total points in the FF games, four teams, a hair over 200 points when it should have been a lot closer to 300 points. The casual women’s BB fan doesn’t tune in to see something resembling Australian Rugby and that’s what it looked like; win, lose or draw.

 

[oldude]

Conspiracy? Total points in the FF games, four teams, a hair over 200 points when it should have been a lot closer to 300 points. The casual women’s BB fan doesn’t tune in to see something resembling Australian Rugby and that’s what it looked like; win, lose or draw.

Actually, Australian Rules Football is a wide open, high scoring game. You are likely referring to conventional rugby which can be brutal, physical and low scoring… 😁

 

[FanSince17]

Thank you olddude. It is absolutely time for the NCAA and coaches to collaborate on a comprehensive review of the entire rules surrounding the women's game.

Why the women's game and not the men's? First, it is not a mens's game. Women don't dunk the ball (ok maybe there's one somewhere, sometime) but that is not what people pay to see. The women's game is a game of skill, technical ability, ball movement and overall what is referred to as "basketball IQ". It is not - and SHOULD NOT - be a game of sheer physical power.

The game of basketball, but especially the women's game, is a mix of speed, agility and not flash but finesse. Geno and CD have made UConn the most successful women's basketball program ever because they have highlighted the "pure state" of the sport focusing on team coordination, precise passing and fast-paced offense sets and a deliberate, skilled one on one and pressing defense. This does not mean that necessary toughness is not required. But it's not deliberate holding an opponent that was most evident in the Final Four this year. It's blending skills with intensity.

Bottom line: This entire idea of "physicality" in the women's game needs a major overhaul in the rules book if the NCAA - or WNBA - wants to expand the women's game.

I agree with your sentiments! I don’t think different rules for men and women is necessary. Strength and physicality is not in and of itself an unfair advantage. It has to be utilized within the rules. I admit that I have not read the rules recently. When I coached, I would ask a ref to come in and talk to the team about rules that have changed and rules that would be emphasized during the upcoming season.
When I played in college, we were taught to “strike” our opponent with “a hook”, your arm totally bent and tight to your body. Contacting your opponent with outstretched arms was a foul. We all understand verticality and the player “claiming” their space. So, I don’t understand the pushing underneath. Each player has their allotted space. Pushing is an infringement on that by either player.
I think Raven Johnson was a case study in this Final 4. Lots of thoughts about her tactics. Absolutely constant grabbing and pushing. Totally counter to traditional rules. I actually think she majorly hurt her draft position. Was she told to behave this way? Lots of layers to the Geno-Dawn ordeal.
Food for thought: did UConn’s defense stretch some rules? Lots of reaching. Physical contact on traps. The trapped player is still entitled to their physical space. You can’t push them, knee them, etc.

 

[FanSince17]

You point to something I have been thinking about since the SC game, that probably bothered Geno more than anything. In a sense, he views himself and his team as the purest form of basketball and how it should be played. Playing that game the way SC wanted it played was undoubtedly painful. In the end I suspect Geno felt a little helpless, and that, more than anything else, animated his actions after the game.

I agree, in addition to Dawn’s behavior. Feels like a good time to have a conference/detente with key figures to address the problems we’re talking about without taking anything away from UCLA. One thing that is not going to change is that players will continue to get bigger and more athletic. Size, strength, and athleticism is an advantage in basketball but it doesn’t have to be an unfair advantage.

 

[Husker Husky]

All the talk about physical play, good or bad for the game elegance etc has me in a quandary. I don't like defenders affecting shots by contact, but I also hate the offense "hunting fouls" by leaping into a defender. The notion that a defender has to be a statue for an indeterminate amount of time is ridiculous. Hunted fouls slow down the game, force teams to adjust to four trouble substitutions and take the essence of the game away. This is the one thing I'd like to see the NCAA address.

 

[Patty Bailey]

Ask Kantner? No way. What do you expect her to say? She's not going to stick her neck out. No, the only way to find out if that was the case in the FF or at any time is to get a "whistleblower" to come forward.

I see what you did there 🤣

 

[Pharos]

Ask Kantner? No way. What do you expect her to say? She's not going to stick her neck out. No, the only way to find out if that was the case in the FF or at any time is to get a "whistleblower" to come forward.

I guess the pun was intended. But I see what you mean a "non-whistleblower" wouldn't be any help.... they just "let them play..."

 

[cancontent]

All the talk about physical play, good or bad for the game elegance etc has me in a quandary. I don't like defenders affecting shots by contact, but I also hate the offense "hunting fouls" by leaping into a defender. The notion that a defender has to be a statue for an indeterminate amount of time is ridiculous. Hunted fouls slow down the game, force teams to adjust to four trouble substitutions and take the essence of the game away. This is the one thing I'd like to see the NCAA address.

And that's the challenge for the NCAA. Balance. When the NFL and NBA made their changes, it skewed things more for the offence, hampered defensive players and you see offensive players gaming the system. There has to be balance that takes both sides of the ball into consideration.

 

[husky98]

I would think refs could differentiate between grabbing, tugging, displacement vs foul hunting. But until then, Geno needs to coach the kids to adapt to the way the game is being called. And finding some kids willing to drive and seek contact - not foul hunting - but welcome contact. I thought Indya Nivar did an excellent job of that in the Sweet 16 game, amazing she only drew 3 FTs. And of course Hannah H.

 

[cancontent]

I would think refs could differentiate between grabbing, tugging, displacement vs foul hunting. But until then, Geno needs to coach the kids to adapt to the way the game is being called. And finding some kids willing to drive and seek contact - not foul hunting - but welcome contact. I thought Indya Nivar did an excellent job of that in the Sweet 16 game, amazing she only drew 3 FTs. And of course Hannah H.

This thread is about the lack of calls for the infractions you noted in your first sentence. It's not happening and regardless of the emphasis on "freedom of movement", it's unclear to fans what these referees are seeing.