2020-2021 Non-Uconn WCBB News

[visitingcock]

The only person that could stop Rivers is Rivers... She has limitless potential. Yes she could very well win both those categories while Bueckers and Fudd are playing, I don’t see why not.

Well, she would have to beat out Raven Johnson too. I actually, see Raven as having more potential then Rivers. Raven has the better skills, Rivers being the better athlete.

But, opinions are like . . .

 

[Gamecockfan77]

DPOY and NPOY. If she wins those while Bueckers and Fudd are playing college ball, she is indeed a very special player.

Are Bueckers and Fudd even DPOY candidates?

 

[SCspur]

Well, she would have to beat out Raven Johnson too. I actually, see Raven as having more potential then Rivers. Raven has the better skills, Rivers being the better athlete.

But, opinions are like . . .

I love Raven but there isn’t a better defensive player in the country than Saniya. She’s averaging 12 rpg (8 defensive), 7 spg, and 2 bpg a team where she literally has to do EVERYTHING. Raven certainly has DPOY potential as well but Saniya is putting up eye popping freak numbers. It’s great that we can debate about two of future our players knowing that they’ll be on the same team giving coaches nightmares for 4 years!

 

[Gamecockfan77]

I love Raven but there isn’t a better defensive player in the country than Saniya. She’s averaging 12 rpg (8 defensive), 7 spg, and 2 bpg a team where she literally has to do EVERYTHING. Raven certainly has DPOY potential as well but Saniya is putting up eye popping freak numbers. It’s great that we can debate about two of future our players knowing that they’ll be on the same team giving coaches nightmares for 4 years!

What classification does she play in NC?

 

[SCspur]

What classification does she play in NC?

4A, which is the largest classification. If not for powerhouse Southeast Raleigh putting her out of the playoffs every year she would likely have multiple state championships.

— Did I also mention she’s averaging 35.2 ppg on 66% from 2 and 79% on FTs? Lol. The weakness in her game at the moment is 3Pt shooting but I suspect she’ll knock them down at a better clip with better players around her as she did in AAU.

 

[nwhoopfan]

Against Top 5 Opponents:
Goestenkors: 18-18 (50.00 percent)
McCallie: 8-36 (18.18 percent)

Against Top 10 Opponents:
Goestenkors: 34-18 (65.38 percent)
McCallie: 22-49 (30.98 percent)

I didn't articulate it very well, I think right there is the real failing by McCallie. No matter how many games she won at Duke, her record against elite teams was abysmal. And some of those losses were absolute beatdowns as @triaddukefan pointed out.

 

[Gamecockfan77]

4A, which is the largest classification. If not for powerhouse Southeast Raleigh putting her out of the playoffs every year she would likely have multiple state championships.

— Did I also mention she’s averaging 35.2 ppg on 66% from 2 and 79% on FTs? Lol. The weakness in her game at the moment is 3Pt shooting but I suspect she’ll knock them down at a better clip with better players around her as she did in AAU.

That's up 10ppg from last year.

She and Talaysia Cooper just seem so similar. obviously Rivers is the more touted one.

Some wild differences in Cooper's rating. Quad double for Cooper last year impressed me. She's got an on point working hard twitter game too.

 

[SCGamecock]

Well, she would have to beat out Raven Johnson too. I actually, see Raven as having more potential then Rivers. Raven has the better skills, Rivers being the better athlete.

But, opinions are like . . .

Raven Johnson's game and physique reminds me of former Gamecock LaKiesha Sutton, physically strong and dominating point guard. Very much a lead guard. Very tough. Never intimidated. Never quits. If you liked Sutton (who was one of my favorites to ever wear the Garnet and Black) then you'll love Johnson. She's like Sutton style wise but WAY MORE offensively polished and more of a playmaker.

A lot of people expressed skepticism about Johnson's rapid rise in the rankings, it was really her offensive potential that catapulted her up. She became a much better shooter over the last year.

 

[visitingcock]

Raven Johnson's game and physique reminds me of former Gamecock LaKiesha Sutton, physically strong and dominating point guard. Very much a lead guard. Very tough. Never intimidated. Never quits. If you liked Sutton (who was one of my favorites to ever wear the Garnet and Black) then you'll love Johnson. She's like Sutton style wise but WAY MORE offensively polished and more of a playmaker.

A lot of people expressed skepticism about Johnson's rapid rise in the rankings, it was really her offensive potential that catapulted her up. She became a much better shooter over the last year.

Worked on driving for layups with her left hand and shooting from three. Her rankings jump was due to her Summer AAU performance and camps where she shone.

note she and Milaysia Fulwilley and Joyce Edwards played well together a lot last Summer

 

[SCspur]

Worked on driving for layups with her left hand and shooting from three. Her rankings jump was due to her Summer AAU performance and camps where she shone.

note she and Milaysia Fulwilley and Joyce Edwards played well together a lot last Summer

Add in Watkins to that group and we could definitely be looking at the future of SC WBB. The things Edwards is doing as a freshman is mind boggling. Dawn has to secure these young ladies because Geno, Kim, Kelly, etc are definitely all over them trying to convince them to leave the state.

 

[donalddoowop]

Are Bueckers and Fudd even DPOY candidates?

Is Rivers?

 

[SCGamecock]

Are Bueckers and Fudd even DPOY candidates?

As it stands today.. as good as Fudd is overall, her defense isn't something to really highlight. She's not particularly quick, long or athletic. She's not a bad defender, it's just not an area of strength for her, unlike her stellar offensive abilities.

I can see Bueckers being a good defensive player one day. She has good length for a point guard and she's pretty quick on her feet.

Neither have the length, quickness or athleticism of Rivers.. which is usually what we see in players that are in the DPOY conversation. Not saying Rivers will be that, but she has the goods for what you need to begin with.

 

[SCGamecock]

As it stands today.. as good as Fudd is overall, her defense isn't something to really highlight. She's not particularly quick, long or athletic. She's not a bad defender, it's just not an area of strength for her, unlike her stellar offensive abilities.

I can see Bueckers being a good defensive player one day. She has good length for a point guard and she's pretty quick on her feet.

Neither have the length, quickness or athleticism of Rivers.. which is usually what we see in players that are in the DPOY conversation. Not saying Rivers will be that, but she has the goods for what you need to begin with.

And not all DPOYs are made the same.. some are good in all three, some are good in two areas.. some are elite in one area and good for their position in the other two. The point being, DPOYs are usually exceptional in some facet.. whether it be length (blocks), quickness or athleticism (rebounds).

 

[Gamecockfan77]

Is Rivers?

She's at least known for defense, I think.

But a fair point I guess.

 

[triaddukefan]

I guess technically Rivers is Non-Uconn WCBB news... but..........................

 

[visitingcock]

I guess technically Rivers is Non-Uconn WCBB news... but..........................

You post with................. is followed by an ad that makes it completely ... uhm . . . off topic

 

[bballnut90]

Yeah her overall resume looks pretty decent. She underachieved fairly significantly at Duke and had them heading the wrong direction. She'd probably be a decent upgrade over the current UW coach but still not really what I'd like to see for the program. Not to mention she'd probably use them as a stepping stone, like several other coaches have done. Why can't the Huskies actually get a good coach who wants to stay put? I'm not asking for that much. It's not like it's Siberia, and overall women's athletics at UW are quite good.


edit--on paper she really does look good, almost 650 career wins and over .700 winning percentage

I'm surprised UW isn't a more coveted destination for coaches and players. It has an unbelievably stunning campus and Seattle is an AWESOME city. I get that money talks and cost of living is nuts, but I'd much prefer to live in Seattle than Arkansas or Columbus.

Same with the other UW, Wisconsin. It makes no sense why their program has NEVER made it to a Sweet 16 despite having an amazing college town and they are consistently very strong in most other sports (M basketball, volleyball, football, hockey). They've also had great fan support when playing well (late 90s they were always top 5 in attendance), and have had a ton of in state talent the last several years, but the program is the worst it has ever been and can't land talent.

 

[bballnut90]

Well if you look at her overall record... its actually pretty good. She put Maine on the map... and took Michigan State to a championship game The last real Big 10 team to make it... and the only one since Purdue did it in 2001.

Picking up P wouldn't be a bad hire for a struggling program. She couldn't deliver at Duke but she was outstanding at Michigan State and did well at Maine. Many coaches do better at a program with lower visibility and expectations. Although if I have both P and Goestenkors on the table as coaching options, I'd take Gail in a heartbeat over P.

 

[triaddukefan]

Picking up P wouldn't be a bad hire for a struggling program. She couldn't deliver at Duke but she was outstanding at Michigan State and did well at Maine. Many coaches do better at a program with lower visibility and expectations. Although if I have both P and Goestenkors on the table as coaching options, I'd take Gail in a heartbeat over P.

I just looked up her age... despite her being out of coaching for a few years... she is still just 57... thats younger than Mulkey.

 

[nwhoopfan]

I'm surprised UW isn't a more coveted destination for coaches and players. It has an unbelievably stunning campus and Seattle is an AWESOME city. I get that money talks and cost of living is nuts, but I'd much prefer to live in Seattle than Arkansas or Columbus.

I can't figure it out either. I've heard they aren't willing to pay top dollar for women's bb. Softball is a powerhouse, volleyball has been very good for almost 20 years. But top players have mostly left the area for as long as I can remember, and every reasonable successful coach has left since the mid 90s (Gobrecht to USC, McGuff to Ohio St., Neighbors to Arkansas; Daugherty started out fairly well but was trending down when they let her go).

 

[bballnut90]

I can't figure it out either. I've heard they aren't willing to pay top dollar for women's bb. Softball is a powerhouse, volleyball has been very good for almost 20 years. But top players have mostly left the area for as long as I can remember, and every reasonable successful coach has left since the mid 90s (Gobrecht to USC, McGuff to Ohio St., Neighbors to Arkansas; Daugherty started out fairly well but was trending down when they let her go).

Have there been a lot of big names from Washington? I cant think of any off the top of my head, but I know Oregon has had a huge basketball pipeline and you'd think Washington wouldve snared at least one or two of those kids wanting to stay local.

 

[nwhoopfan]

Have there been a lot of big names from Washington? I cant think of any off the top of my head, but I know Oregon has had a huge basketball pipeline and you'd think Washington wouldve snared at least one or two of those kids wanting to stay local.

I mean just recently Van Lith, Dalayah Daniels, von Oelhoffen, Jordyn Jenkins to name a few, none of which chose UW or in state schools. Pivec recently, Brittany McPhee a little before that. Courtney Vandersloot. It was before I was paying any attention to girls HS basketball but Leilani Mitchell is from Tri Cities. Kate Starbird from back in the day. Sheila Lambert. Joyce Walker way back when. That's a few I've come up with, I'm sure there are plenty more. None chose UW. They must've gotten a few somewhat highly recruited locals to stay home, but I'm not coming up with a good list (McD's AA Katie Collier and Deja Strother were both Huskies and neither really panned out). Oh, Briann January, that's another one.

Some of those weren't Puget Sound area/Western Washington, and UW is less likely to get players from Central/Eastern WA.

Gonzaga's Elite 8 run was powered by Vandersloot, Heather Bowman and Kayla Standish, all WA products.


edit--I probably don't have to remind you of Angie Bjorklund. I think she was rated #2 in her class, although I don't think she really lived up to it.

 

[ucbart]

21ST CENTURY PROGRAM ASSESSMENT
(Last 7 years of Gail Goestenkors’s tenure vs. 12 years of Joanne P. McCallie, not including 2019-20, McCallie's final season)

OVERALL RECORD:
Goestenkors: 220-25 (89.79 percent)
McCallie: 312-95 (76.65 percent)

ACC RECORD:
Goestenkors: 98-8 (92.45 percent)
McCallie: 138-48 (74.19 percent)

ACC FINISHES:
Goestenkors: 6 regular season ACC titles, 4 ACCT championships, 6 years finishing 1st, 1 year finishing 2nd
McCallie: 4 regular season ACC titles, 3 ACCT championships, 4 years finishing 1st, 2 years finishing 2nd, 2 years finishing 3rd, 2 years finishing 4th, 1 year finishing 7th, 1 year finishing 10th

NCAA RECORD:
Goestenkors: 23-7 (one NCAA runner-up, three Final Fours, five years at least making the Elite Eight, all seven years at least making the Sweet 16)
McCallie: 21-10 (zero Final Fours, four Elite Eights, seven years at least making the Sweet 16, three second round losses, two years missing the NCAAT altogether)

___________________________________________

PREVIOUS DECADE ANALYSIS
(Last 10 years of Gail Goestenkors’s tenure vs. 12 years of Joanne P. McCallie, not including 2019-20, McCallie's final season)

OVERALL RECORD:
Goestenkors: 301-46 (86.74 percent)
McCallie: 312-95 (76.65 percent)

ACC RECORD:
Goestenkors: 138-16 (89.61 percent)
McCallie: 138-48 (74.19 percent)

ACC FINISHES:
Goestenkors: 8 regular season ACC titles, 5 ACCT championships, 8 years finishing 1st, 2 years finishing 2nd
McCallie: 4 regular season ACC titles, 3 ACCT championships, 4 years finishing 1st, 2 years finishing 2nd, 2 years finishing 3rd, 2 years finishing 4th, 1 year finishing 7th, 1 year finishing 10th

NCAA RECORD:
Goestenkors: 33-10 (two NCAA runners-up, four Final Fours, seven years at least making the Elite Eight, all ten years at least making the Sweet 16)
McCallie: 21-10 (zero Final Fours, four Elite Eights, seven years at least making the Sweet 16, three second round losses, two years missing the NCAAT altogether)

___________________________________________

RANKED OPPONENTS (21st Century Program Assessment)
(Last 7 years of Gail Goestenkors’s tenure vs. 12 years of Joanne P. McCallie, not including 2019-20, McCallie's final season)

Against Top 5 Opponents:
Goestenkors: 15-14 (51.72 percent)
McCallie: 8-36 (18.18 percent)

Against Top 10 Opponents:
Goestenkors: 25-14 (64.10 percent)
McCallie: 22-49 (30.98 percent)

Against Ranked Opponents:
Goestenkors: 60-20 (80.00 percent)
McCallie: 72-67 (51.79 percent)

___________________________________________

RANKED OPPONENTS (Previous Decade Analysis)
(Last 10 years of Gail Goestenkors’s tenure vs. 12 years of Joanne P. McCallie, not including 2019-20, McCallie's final season)

Against Top 5 Opponents:
Goestenkors: 18-18 (50.00 percent)
McCallie: 8-36 (18.18 percent)

Against Top 10 Opponents:
Goestenkors: 34-18 (65.38 percent)
McCallie: 22-49 (30.98 percent)

Against Ranked Opponents:
Goestenkors: 81-34 (70.43 percent)
McCallie: 72-67 (51.79 percent)

___________________________________________

RECENT PROGRAM DIRECTION (Last four seasons of McCallie's tenure, not included 2019-20, her final season)
Looking at Joanne P. McCallie's 12 years at Duke does not take into account the direction of the program, based on the previous four seasons before 2019-20, McCallie's final season.

OVERALL RECORD:
McCallie: 87-53 (67.44 percent)

ACC RECORD:
McCallie: 38-26 (59.375 percent)

ACC FINISHES:
McCallie: Zero regular season ACC titles, Zero ACCT championships, Zero years finishing 1st, one year finishing 2nd, one year finishing 4th, one year finishing 7th, one year finishing 10th

NCAA RECORD:
McCallie: 3-2 (Zero Final Fours, Zero Elite Eights, one Sweet 16, one Second Round loss, two years missing the NCAAT altogether)

RANKED OPPONENTS:
Against Top 5 Opponents
McCallie: 1-10 (9.09 percent)

Against Top 10 Opponents
McCallie: 4-16 (20.00 percent)

Against Ranked Opponents
McCallie: 13-24 (35.13 percent)

@ucbart , @EricLA , @HuskyNan , @triaddukefan , @CBus13 , @Gamecockfan77 , @nwhoopfan , @eebmg , @DeeHusky , @CocoHusky , @vowelguy

How many of those ACC titles that McCallie won were with Gail's recruits who stayed for the Duke education only?

@CamrnCrz1974

 

[Lorcan]

The shade at leaving Lexie and Lacie Hull off the list of recent good players from Washington is strong.

I kid, but you know, Washington is capable of being good, it just seems like success has been hard to sustain, largely due to the prominent coaches leaving for other positions. I don’t know how you fix that unless you hire an Amber Melgoza, Kelsey Plum or a homegrown alum to be the coach in the long run and hope that they succeed—but the Whalen experience shows that it doesn’t really work out.

 

[ucbart]

I'm surprised UW isn't a more coveted destination for coaches and players. It has an unbelievably stunning campus and Seattle is an AWESOME city. I get that money talks and cost of living is nuts, but I'd much prefer to live in Seattle than Arkansas or Columbus.

Same with the other UW, Wisconsin. It makes no sense why their program has NEVER made it to a Sweet 16 despite having an amazing college town and they are consistently very strong in most other sports (M basketball, volleyball, football, hockey). They've also had great fan support when playing well (late 90s they were always top 5 in attendance), and have had a ton of in state talent the last several years, but the program is the worst it has ever been and can't land talent.

I CONCUR. I just had this conversation with a friend the other day. Wisconsin is a great women's sports university, which it makes it extra interesting that their basketball team is so abysmal. I don't even know who the coach is there. They need to completely clean house and start over from scratch. It's a far cry from when the 1999 National HS POY, Nina Smith, went to Wisconsin. What ever happened to her? I mean, I know she transferred to Iowa State and it didn't work out.....

 

[Argonaut]

4A, which is the largest classification. If not for powerhouse Southeast Raleigh putting her out of the playoffs every year she would likely have multiple state championships.

— Did I also mention she’s averaging 35.2 ppg on 66% from 2 and 79% on FTs? Lol. The weakness in her game at the moment is 3Pt shooting but I suspect she’ll knock them down at a better clip with better players around her as she did in AAU.

I think the reason Saniya hasn't won multiple state championships is less about her and more about the teams she's been on. In her three complete seasons and so far this year, only three other girls she's played with have averaged more than 10 PPG -- two her freshman year at Laney and one last year at Ashley.

So, yes, Southeast Raleigh keeps ending her seasons, but it's because she's the only person on the team anyone really has to worry about.

 

[bballnut90]

I CONCUR. I just had this conversation with a friend the other day. Wisconsin is a great women's sports university, which it makes it extra interesting that their basketball team is so abysmal. I don't even know who the coach is there. They need to completely clean house and start over from scratch. It's a far cry from when the 1999 National HS POY, Nina Smith, went to Wisconsin. What ever happened to her? I mean, I know she transferred to Iowa State and it didn't work out.....

It's a major head scratcher. When they program was decent in the last 90s (made NCAAs maybe 50% of the time, and always lost in 1st or 2nd round), they averaged 7000-10000 fans per game. Jane Albright did a lot to get fans amped up for the season and also recruited extremely well. She wasn't great at developing talent or in game coaching, and once her recruiting dried up the team struggled. She had a great assistant early on in Sue Semrau who left for a head coaching job at Florida State and has been an amazing coach there.

The current coach is Jonathan Tsipis who is a former ND associate head coach and was able to capitalize on picking up Jonquel Jones and bolted once she left.

Nina Smith transferred to some small college I believe in Iowa. She had the potential to be a Courtney Paris type of player with a ton of size and strength inside with good touch around the basket. Word back in the day was she went to Wisconsin over Tennessee since she wanted to have a full college experience and knew her life would be a lot more regimented had she played for Pat. Wisconsin should've been really good when they had Sims/Stomski/Moore/Smith all in the lineup together but they couldn't get past the first round.

 

[bballnut90]

I mean just recently Van Lith, Dalayah Daniels, von Oelhoffen, Jordyn Jenkins to name a few, none of which chose UW or in state schools. Pivec recently, Brittany McPhee a little before that. Courtney Vandersloot. It was before I was paying any attention to girls HS basketball but Leilani Mitchell is from Tri Cities. Kate Starbird from back in the day. Sheila Lambert. Joyce Walker way back when. That's a few I've come up with, I'm sure there are plenty more. None chose UW. They must've gotten a few somewhat highly recruited locals to stay home, but I'm not coming up with a good list (McD's AA Katie Collier and Deja Strother were both Huskies and neither really panned out). Oh, Briann January, that's another one.

Some of those weren't Puget Sound area/Western Washington, and UW is less likely to get players from Central/Eastern WA.

Gonzaga's Elite 8 run was powered by Vandersloot, Heather Bowman and Kayla Standish, all WA products.


edit--I probably don't have to remind you of Angie Bjorklund. I think she was rated #2 in her class, although I don't think she really lived up to it.

Yeah that's a lot of big names to miss on. I didn't think about it, but I'm sure Gonzaga being in state doesn't help either since they're snagging a lot of the talent. Not to mention Oregon/Oregon State and Stanford.

 

[Gamecockfan77]

How many of those ACC titles that McCallie won were with Gail's recruits who stayed for the Duke education only?

@CamrnCrz1974

The ACC titles came in years 3,4,5, and 6.

what she did after that was obviously not nearly as good, but the ACC got a good bit better too with ND and Louisville. which cuts both ways, I suppose.

I get it. I would not be happy with Dawn's replacement if she produced 6 years like McCallie's last 6. Even if those 6 years are not really bad exactly.

But it's hard to be great forever even within the same coaches tenure. Harder still to string together multiple great coaches.

 

[CamrnCrz1974]

How many of those ACC titles that McCallie won were with Gail's recruits who stayed for the Duke education only?

@CamrnCrz1974

• 2 of McCallie's 4 regular season ACC titles were won with players and recruits who had played for and signed with Gail Goestenkors.
• 2 of McCallie's 3 ACC Tournament championships were won with players and recruits who had played for and signed with Gail Goestenkors.

The ACC titles came in years 3,4,5, and 6.

what she did after that was obviously not nearly as good, but the ACC got a good bit better too with ND and Louisville. which cuts both ways, I suppose.

I get it. I would not be happy with Dawn's replacement if she produced 6 years like McCallie's last 6. Even if those 6 years are not really bad exactly.

The first two ACC regular season titles and ACC Tournament championships came primarily with Gail Goestenkors' recruits, signees, and players.

And while Louisville and Notre Dame strengthened the conference, Maryland left. McCallie has privately claimed Goestenkors had a much easier time without ND and Louisville, but she forgets that when Goestenkors was making Final Four appearances, so were North Carolina and Maryland (with MD winning the national title).

And as I mentioned in my previous post in this thread, McCallie's record against ranked teams while at Duke was ABYSMAL