2 Seed Discussion on ATH Today

[FanHam]

I about fell over when the topic of UConn's number two seed in the NCAA Tournament came up today on ESPN's Around the Horn. WCBB is almost never discussed on that show.

Bob Ryan said the number one seed is only for the resume. Frank Isola said if the tournament committee wants to make an underdog of UConn, he's baffled as to why but he's still taking UConn. He said with a front line that includes Collier and Samuelson it's hard to fathom that seeding.

But I thought Bill Plaschke had the most salient take on it. He said it was done to promote the image of parity in WCBB. He said no team has stepped up to replace UConn as the dominant WCBB team, so the NCAA is promoting the idea that WCBB has achieved a level of parity among the top teams. I'm buying that explanation.

My own thinking is I couldn't be happier. Anything to put a chip on their shoulders and add to their motivation!

 

[PAHuskeyFan]

It is what it is. Take care of what you can control. and so on... Pick a phrase.
The fact is, a lot of things happened to UCONN this year that they had NO control over. I don't want to call it a "Perfect Storm"...but it kind of is... take all the things in a total view and it's not hard to see how the committee dropped them to a 2 seed... but it doesn't explain how they have been ranked #2 in both the AP and Coaches polls for the past 3 (?) weeks.
a. They accepted an invitation to the Paradise Jam...but had NO control over the quality of teams they would be playing. Going to this event, UCONN lost the opportunity to schedule 3 more higher ranked teams and end up paying 3 mediocre teams. But Our Team had a wonderful time in St. Thomas.
b. The Hall of Fame Showcase vs Vandy...another game where UCONN likely had little choice but to play, and lost a 4th chance to schedule higher ranked team. (this also set up Danger's homecoming game for next year)
c. Our OOC was "loaded" with teams that have traditionally been of higher quality than this year, such as theOSU, Oklahoma, California, SoCarolina. Some improved during the season but not to the level they were in the recent past, further hurting UCONN's SOS/RPI, etc
d. USF was devastated by injury and ended up being a far weaker team than they have been for the past several years... thus another hit to UCONN's SOS/RPI, etc.

While I would put UCONN ahead of MSST because of their SOS, ND because of their 2 losses to teams they SHOULD have beaten (even with Jackie Young out for ONE of them) and Louisville based on their loss to unranked Miami, and their staggering to the finish line in the ACC tournament.

But that didn't happen, and complaining about it won't make it happen. Geno, the Coaches and Team are saying the right things... Day by Day, Game by Game, we have to win 6...... while showing that they are disappointed by the Committee's decision. That will be a motivator... Geno will use it...the Seniors will use it... and they will get sick of hearing about it from press, etc.

It's going to be an exciting tournament!!!

GO HUSKIES!!!!!

 

[nwhoopfan]

Louisville based on their loss to unranked Miami

According to ESPN, Miami was ranked #20 at the time. I believe they were ranked during the majority of the season, and they are also a #4 seed in the Tourney so that tells something about them.

 

[Fightin Choke]

It is what it is. Take care of what you can control. and so on... Pick a phrase.
The fact is, a lot of things happened to UCONN this year that they had NO control over. I don't want to call it a "Perfect Storm"...but it kind of is... take all the things in a total view and it's not hard to see how the committee dropped them to a 2 seed... but it doesn't explain how they have been ranked #2 in both the AP and Coaches polls for the past 3 (?) weeks.
a. They accepted an invitation to the Paradise Jam...but had NO control over the quality of teams they would be playing. Going to this event, UCONN lost the opportunity to schedule 3 more higher ranked teams and end up paying 3 mediocre teams. But Our Team had a wonderful time in St. Thomas.
b. The Hall of Fame Showcase vs Vandy...another game where UCONN likely had little choice but to play, and lost a 4th chance to schedule higher ranked team. (this also set up Danger's homecoming game for next year)
c. Our OOC was "loaded" with teams that have traditionally been of higher quality than this year, such as theOSU, Oklahoma, California, SoCarolina. Some improved during the season but not to the level they were in the recent past, further hurting UCONN's SOS/RPI, etc
d. USF was devastated by injury and ended up being a far weaker team than they have been for the past several years... thus another hit to UCONN's SOS/RPI, etc.

While I would put UCONN ahead of MSST because of their SOS, ND because of their 2 losses to teams they SHOULD have beaten (even with Jackie Young out for ONE of them) and Louisville based on their loss to unranked Miami, and their staggering to the finish line in the ACC tournament.

But that didn't happen, and complaining about it won't make it happen. Geno, the Coaches and Team are saying the right things... Day by Day, Game by Game, we have to win 6. while showing that they are disappointed by the Committee's decision. That will be a motivator... Geno will use it...the Seniors will use it... and they will get sick of hearing about it from press, etc.

It's going to be an exciting tournament!!!

GO HUSKIES!!!!!

I am replying specifically to your passage that I have underlined above. I believe that you are cherry-picking data that supports your argument in each instance, but are not being consistent.

For example, you condemn Notre Dame for losing to teams that they should not have have lost to, but neglect to mention their much tougher SOS than UConn's. Notre Dame had far more opportunities to falter because Notre Dame played a far tougher schedule than the Huskies. You regret that UConn had a weaker schedule than usual, and even enumerate the reasons why, but then seem to forget that when you reason that Notre Dame should drop below UConn because of their extra loss.

You explain that Miss State should be seeded lower than UConn because their SOS is not as tough as UConn's. That's true, but if you're going to use SOS against Miss State, shouldn't you also use it against UConn when you are comparing their schedules to Notre Dame's or Louisville's? (Both RPI and Massey have the Irish and Cardinals as having a tougher SOS than the Huskies.)

Then you explain why Louisville should be lower than UConn by pointing out their failure in the ACC tournament. But you do not give Notre Dame credit for making them look so bad. After all, isn't this a zero-sum game? By the way, Miami was ranked 20th when they beat Louisville, and they are presently ranked 19th/15th, so that's really not a bad loss. (You claimed Louisville lost to unranked Miami.) And Louisville was missing two starters for all or the majority of the game. Both starters are expected to be back for the NCAA tournament. How is that different than UConn struggling a couple games after KLS was injured?

 

[PAHuskeyFan]

According to ESPN, Miami was ranked #20 at the time. I believe they were ranked during the majority of the season, and they are also a #4 seed in the Tourney so that tells something about them.

OK... didn't have the historical stats on that ...but let's be honest... Miami is/was a team Louisville should have beaten...no one was injured, no one was sick... they should have won easily. and of course my point was UCONN won ALL the games they were supposed to win....and their only losses were to 2 top 5 teams... BAD losses should matter.

 

[PAHuskeyFan]

kk

I am replying specifically to your passage that I have underlined above. I believe that you are cherry-picking data that supports your argument in each instance, but are not being consistent.

For example, you condemn Notre Dame for losing to teams that they should not have have lost to, but neglect to mention their much tougher SOS than UConn's. Notre Dame had far more opportunities to falter because Notre Dame played a far tougher schedule than the Huskies. You regret that UConn had a weaker schedule than usual, and even enumerate the reasons why, but then seem to forget that when you reason that Notre Dame should drop below UConn because of their extra loss.

You explain that Miss State should be seeded lower than UConn because their SOS is not as tough as UConn's. That's true, but if you're going to use SOS against Miss State, shouldn't you also use it against UConn when you are comparing their schedules to Notre Dame's or Louisville's? (Both RPI and Massey have the Irish and Cardinals as having a tougher SOS than the Huskies.)

Then you explain why Louisville should be lower than UConn by pointing out their failure in the ACC tournament. But you do not give Notre Dame credit for making them look so bad. After all, isn't this a zero-sum game? By the way, Miami was ranked 20th when they beat Louisville, and they are presently ranked 19th/15th, so that's really not a bad loss. (You claimed Louisville lost to unranked Miami.) And Louisville was missing two starters for all or the majority of the game. Both starters are expected to be back for the NCAA tournament. How is that different than UConn struggling a couple games after KLS was injured?

Yeah, OK... what ever... but BAD losses should matter...and ND's losses, with the exception of UCONN were to teams they SHOULD have beaten...any day of the week... I would think you can agree with that...

 

[hoopsfan22]

While I would put UCONN ahead of MSST because of their SOS, ND because of their 2 losses to teams they SHOULD have beaten (even with Jackie Young out for ONE of them) and Louisville based on their loss to unranked Miami, and their staggering to the finish line in the ACC tournament.

ND lost to three teams they should have beaten. You forgot the throttling UConn gave them on their home court.

 

[PAHuskeyFan]

ND lost to three teams they should have beaten. You forgot the throttling UConn gave them on their home court.

Not really...... While it would be reasonable to think ND should have won that game at home with a packed home crowd, I was thinking that going into that game it was a "toss up"... IMHO anyway. I don't think losing to UCONN was a "bad loss"... but this is another reason UCONN's seeding could have been higher.

 

[hoopsfan22]

Not really...... While it would be reasonable to think ND should have won that game at home with a packed home crowd, I was thinking that going into that game it was a "toss up"... IMHO anyway. I don't think losing to UCONN was a "bad loss"... but this is another reason UCONN's seeding could have been higher.

Yeah I wouldn't put it in the bad loss category, losing to a team that was ranked a spot or two below you. But, they did have the returning national championship team against a UConn team trying to figure out what to do about the loss of three first round WNBA draft picks and playing on the road in a tough environment early in the season.

 

[donalddoowop]

Winning the NC should be ALL the motivation UConn players need.

 

[IrishTiger]

kk

Yeah, OK... what ever... but BAD losses should matter...and ND's losses, with the exception of UCONN were to teams they SHOULD have beaten...any day of the week... I would think you can agree with that...

And with Jackie Young they avenged their loss to North Carolina in the ACC tourny by beating them by 18.

 

[PAHuskeyFan]

And with Jackie Young they avenged their loss to North Carolina in the ACC tourny by beating them by 18.

Yes, I understand that....and again, that was a game they were supposed to win...
my point regarding the regular season loss to UNC... with 4/5s of the starting line up playing against a much weaker team, isn't it "reasonable" that ND should have beaten North Carolina the first time? Just sayin'... again.. a "Bad Loss"...that should matter.

I believe ND is playing some of the best basketball in the country now. They are going to be a very difficult to beat in the tournament. but they did lose to 2 much weaker teams during the season... that's fact.

I started my comments in my original post on this saying that things happened to UCONN this year that were beyond their control. I agree ND has #1 SOS and deserve a #1 seed... UCONN helped get them that SOS...but those other 2 losses were not to teams that helped boost their SOS all that much.

I remain confused by the Committee's reasoning...but I wasn't in the room. UCONN is still #2 ranked in AP and Coaches polls...and did nothing after the last "reveal" to weaken their position in the seeds...and the Committee's last reveal had them as a #1 seed.

BUT...again, #1 or #2...in Albany...no big difference. They still have to win 4 games to get to FF...it's just 4 different teams...and they will have to wear "away" uniforms for the Regional final if they AND Louisville make it there.

It's going to be a crazy MARCH... thus the term MARCH MADNESS! If you haven't checked out the 538 bracket and their percentages for teams going to the FF and winning the NC, I think you will find it interesting. (spoiler alert... ND is their "favorite"...but not by much).

While I wish you and your Irish a good run, my allegiance is to the UCONN HUSKIES and I'll be rooting for them to go all the way!!!

 

[uconn34]

See you at the end of the last game

 

[nwhoopfan]

OK... didn't have the historical stats on that ...but let's be honest... Miami is/was a team Louisville should have beaten...no one was injured, no one was sick... they should have won easily. and of course my point was UCONN won ALL the games they were supposed to win....and their only losses were to 2 top 5 teams... BAD losses should matter.

Miami had beaten Notre Dame just before they beat Louisville. They were up and down throughout the season, at their best they are a very good team. You can't call that a bad loss. Hof and Mompremier are one of the better post duos in the country and they have some decent perimeter players.

 

[IrishTiger]

Yes, I understand that....and again, that was a game they were supposed to win...
my point regarding the regular season loss to UNC... with 4/5s of the starting line up playing against a much weaker team, isn't it "reasonable" that ND should have beaten North Carolina the first time? Just sayin'... again.. a "Bad Loss"...that should matter.

I believe ND is playing some of the best basketball in the country now. They are going to be a very difficult to beat in the tournament. but they did lose to 2 much weaker teams during the season... that's fact.

I started my comments in my original post on this saying that things happened to UCONN this year that were beyond their control. I agree ND has #1 SOS and deserve a #1 seed... UCONN helped get them that SOS...but those other 2 losses were not to teams that helped boost their SOS all that much.

I remain confused by the Committee's reasoning...but I wasn't in the room. UCONN is still #2 ranked in AP and Coaches polls...and did nothing after the last "reveal" to weaken their position in the seeds...and the Committee's last reveal had them as a #1 seed.

BUT...again, #1 or #2...in Albany...no big difference. They still have to win 4 games to get to FF...it's just 4 different teams...and they will have to wear "away" uniforms for the Regional final if they AND Louisville make it there.

It's going to be a crazy MARCH... thus the term MARCH MADNESS! If you haven't checked out the 538 bracket and their percentages for teams going to the FF and winning the NC, I think you will find it interesting. (spoiler alert... ND is their "favorite"...but not by much).

While I wish you and your Irish a good run, my allegiance is to the UCONN HUSKIES and I'll be rooting for them to go all the way!!!

Yeah I saw that. I get that all I’m saying is I think ND avenging that loss should count for something. I agreee they shouldn’t of lost to North Carolina and Miami. ND just has to stay locked in each game and not look ahead. Yeah I saw 538.

 

[LoTrader]

How many "bad" losses would UCONN have had this season if they were a member of the ACC or PAC-12 conference? It is a grind knowing that on any given day/night, any team in your conference can rise up and beat you.

 

[Robin]

How many "bad" losses would UCONN have had this season if they were a member of the ACC or PAC-12 conference? It is a grind knowing that on any given day/night, any team in your conference can rise up and beat you.

Most conferences have teams that if they play their very best and the powerhouse team does not, they can win. I don't think the AAC has a lot of those teams but when the ACC has 8 teams that are selected for the tournament, there are going to be several teams who could post an upset on teams like Lville and ND. Even weak UNC made it in as a top 10 seed I believe. All 8 teams are top 10 seeds, with a 3 seed and a 4 seed to go along with 2 number 1 seeds and of course without auto bids or teams with good records getting in because they play in a weak conference, the ACC could have had 3-4 more as could most P5 conferences. The PAC 12 has 6 tournament teams and I think all of them are top 6 seeds. It's tough to play that level all season and also play tough OOC, which ND did, and not lose some of them. I think UCONN played a tougher OOC but ND has to get through the ACC so I think playing 4 ranked OOC teams is okay, one of them being UCONN.

 

[Tonyc]

ND lost a game without Jackie Young, LVille lost to ND with 2 injuries during the game. No excuse just facts saying that both teams may have won those game if healthy. UConn played the AAC tourney and a game of two without Lou and won all those games. Yes AAC may be less talented then other teams but they did it. The non starters stepped up big time as did Phessa. When I look at the NCAA tourney UConn looks the most improved of any of the top teams. UConn and Miss St have the best defenses of the top 6 teams. With that said I dont see UConn loosing unless they have injuries or foul trouble which they did in the previous 2 . IMO a team like UConn that doesnt foul and is called for 20 more fouls then ND again and again should be looked at by the NCAA.

 

[Tonyc]

How many "bad" losses would UCONN have had this season if they were a member of the ACC or PAC-12 conference? It is a grind knowing that on any given day/night, any team in your conference can rise up and beat you.

We will never know if UConn wouldve lost or not. The games wouldve been played differently meaning Genos strategy wouldve been different. Understand UConn is a very very good team this season . They are not invincible as in the past. They arent blowing teams out by 40 pts but they are winning most games by alot. With that said right now UConn is playing at another level and their non starters are playing at another level. UConns weakness was lack of height early in the season, now its not as ONO is a presence underneath. UConn failed to have a top defender like Kia Nurse and Gabby Williams they do now in Coombs. UConn has 2 AA's and I dont think any other top team does. UConn is long with ONO in. My point is get ready because barring foul trouble and injuries UConn is gonna win their 12th NC . Notice I did not use and "if's" or what if's. UConn will win the NC barring not if they are healthy and arent called for silly fouls.

 

[LoTrader]

We will never know if UConn wouldve lost or not. The games wouldve been played differently meaning Genos strategy wouldve been different. Understand UConn is a very very good team this season . They are not invincible as in the past. They arent blowing teams out by 40 pts but they are winning most games by alot. With that said right now UConn is playing at another level and their non starters are playing at another level. UConns weakness was lack of height early in the season, now its not as ONO is a presence underneath. UConn failed to have a top defender like Kia Nurse and Gabby Williams they do now in Coombs. UConn has 2 AA's and I dont think any other top team does. UConn is long with ONO in. My point is get ready because barring foul trouble and injuries UConn is gonna win their 12th NC . Notice I did not use and "if's" or what if's. UConn will win the NC barring not if they are healthy and arent called for silly fouls.

BOLD for sure! Don't agree with much of anything in your post, but that's OK.

 

[Robin]

LVille playing without 2 starters vs ND is not the same as UCONN playing AAC opponents without KLS. ND played all last year without 2 starters and only 1 available bench player and won the NC so most ND fans do not use injuries as an excuse anymore. UNC was just a bad loss. It happens. It really didn't affect anything in the end. They still won the ACC reg season and the ACC tournament and beat UNC in the tournament. Which shows just because they lose to a team once doesn't mean it'll happen again.

I would love to see how other top teams would do in a conference like the AAC. UCONN has been so dominant but would ND our Baylor go undefeated

 

[willtalk]

In basketball timing plays a major factor. No team shoots well every game. If you are considerable better than your opposition you can get by with a bad shooting game even if the other team plays their A Game. However, if you have to play more teams closer to your talent level the odds of being caught on a bad night resulting in a loss increases. The reality is that Uconn is far superior to anyone else in their conference so the odds of them being challenged are slim and none. Now had Uconn finished undefeated in non conference play, their conference play would have not made a difference. But since the lost twice and were challenged by some far lesser teams as well, it pointed to the reality that they were beatable when playing better teams. So say a team playing in a tough conference like Louisville with three loses would be given more credit than Uconn with their two in the non challenging AAC. .

 

[ABCDFE]

Defense will be key for UCONN. If they can play better defense than they did during the regular season and AAC tournament (for the most part). Then they have a chance against anyone.

 

[Robin]

Defense will be key for UCONN. If they can play better defense than they did during the regular season and AAC tournament (for the most part). Then they have a chance against anyone.

UCONN definitely can beat anyone. Even in a down year, by their standards, they have more talent than 99% of the year of D1, and equal talent to teams like ND and Baylor. Still think they have more than MSU and Louisville but those teams are coaches extremely well to make up for talent deficiencies. Of course I want ND to win it all but I'm looking forward to some really good basketball.

 

[Tonyc]

ND is very good this season. They have height shooters rebounding. Their defense isnt as great as in the past however they score alot of points. Baylor has the height and are domin8 down low with that height. They dont score like ND. A team like ND can score alot of points and will give Baylor a huge challenge.

 

[Robin]

ND is very good this season. They have height shooters rebounding. Their defense isnt as great as in the past however they score alot of points. Baylor has the height and are domin8 down low with that height. They dont score like ND. A team like ND can score alot of points and will give Baylor a huge challenge.

I've watched a lot of ND games and though it looks like they aren't as good on defense, that's not really true. They are smart on defense which means the bigs underneath the basket will sometimes allow a layup to avoid fouling. They know their bench isn't deep so they have to be careful and they know they can usually outscore opponents but can't do that if they are on the bench. Doesn't work as well against teams like UCONN and Miami. I'm sure Muffet will make adjustments when they get deeper into the tournament.

Also, they score so quickly, rarely using even half the shot clock, which allows more shot opportunities for their opponents. A good portion of their points come from transition and you don't get transition without good defense and rebounding. Brianna Turner is one of the best shot blockers in the nation and nobody runs the court like her fit a center.

 

[IrishTiger]

I've watched a lot of ND games and though it looks like they aren't as good on defense, that's not really true. They are smart on defense which means the bigs underneath the basket will sometimes allow a layup to avoid fouling. They know their bench isn't deep so they have to be careful and they know they can usually outscore opponents but can't do that if they are on the bench. Doesn't work as well against teams like UCONN and Miami. I'm sure Muffet will make adjustments when they get deeper into the tournament.

Also, they score so quickly, rarely using even half the shot clock, which allows more shot opportunities for their opponents. A good portion of their points come from transition and you don't get transition without good defense and rebounding. Brianna Turner is one of the best shot blockers in the nation and nobody runs the court like her fit a center.

Idk if there is a PF or Center that is as quick as Turner. There might be. But she’s for sure one of the faster ones and one of the only ones that can go out and guard a guard.

 

[Robin]

Idk if there is a PF or Center that is as quick as Turner. There might be. But she’s for sure one of the faster ones and one of the only ones that can go out and guard a guard.

Yeah I forgot how fast she gets up and down the court while she was out last year.

 

[Plebe]

And with Jackie Young they avenged their loss to North Carolina in the ACC tourny by beating them by 18.

Oh wow, congratulations. By all means, let's all be impressed that Notre Dame beat a team that probably wouldn't even be in the tournament if ND hadn't pooped the bed against them the first time.

 

[IrishTiger]

Oh wow, congratulations. By all means, let's all be impressed that Notre Dame beat a team that probably wouldn't even be in the tournament if ND hadn't pooped the bed against them the first time.

Never said You had to be impressed.