Discussion in 'Entertainment' started by G0UCONN, Jul 18, 2017.
Anyone watching this on Netflix? Hear good things.
Only if you dont have a teen daughter
To a 21st century teen girl all they will take out of this is that if you feel down and challenged, the best glory you are going to get is to off yourself.
very controversial, my kid's high school sent out a letter to all parents warning about the show and the message. Personally I'm not watching it.
I watched the first 4 episodes with my 13 yr old daughter because "everyone" in her grade was watching it. I decided it was too much for her at 13 and we stopped watching. She pouted for a couple weeks and has since moved onto Jake Paul and Team 10.
I understand the final episode shows the suicide in graphic form and is pretty shocking.
I've got some strong thoughts about this one.
I watched the whole thing and found it enjoyable to watch. But, man does it give the wrong message to teens and people in general.
It glorifies being a drama queen, makes it seem OK or normal. It's the whole 'Reality TV nitwits bleeding into the rest of society' thing. People think it's cool or normal to be so dramatic and sh#tty these days, that they don't develop any emotional intelligence/control. ie mature Reality TV people are the biggest collection of overly-dramatic immaturebags you can find.
As a result, it glorifies suicide. It makes it seem the the dramatic conclusion to all the bad stuff the girl goes through. As if it was her only choice. Even the scene itself is very nuanced and dramatic--well shot mind you, but that is the problem. Just dumb.
It's quite anti-boy/men. Except for the subservient guy. Or should I say, anti-jock and 'cool kid'. As if all those types of guys are similar. Party animal meatheads who rape chicks and treat others like . The stereotype is strong it would be laughable, if it wasn't a little alarming in how well they execute (and thereby influence) you. I knew plenty of meathead types in high school who never raped anybody and didn't pick on anyone other than themselves. Most of the jocks, of which I was one, were pretty cool people. On the anti-guy thing, they even have a 'loser' kid who is a stalker/pervert.
For the most part, it treats girls as the victims. There's a couple of girls who do mean teenage girl things, but they aren't at all a big deal compared to the guys.
It glorifies the white knight type. It's a very feminist production, but they paradoxically emphasize coming to the girls defense, as if she needs to be protected. I think it's anti-'girl power' in that respect. It shows a girl, who has been hard done by, who isn't powerful enough to handle it on her own.
It doesn't emphasize enough the truly poor choices the girl makes. And how those poor choices are a huge part of the follow on of what happens to her. Quite often she was her own worst enemy.
One of the most likable characters, Clay, is hell bent on revenge. He kind of does the right thing in the end, but kind of takes the law into his own hands. Overall I don't have a problem with this, but there's very much that 'social justice' component which smacks of the 'madness of the crowds' best exemplified on twitter/reddit/et al.
Most importantly, my biggest/strongest gripe with the show: it transfers the blame for the suicide from the kid who actually did it, to all the other kids who helped in leading her to that place. As if, they are the one's truly responsible for her death. When in reality, as cold is this sounds, at the end of the day, suicide is truly only on the person who commits the act. Life can truly suck for many people, and getting help, is hard af. Getting out of a crap situation can seem insurmountable. But in the end it's possible. Where you are now is where someone else has been in the past who has come out of it. Only you can make the choice to accept the challenge, and try to move forward, or to give up and end it. I'm not even going to call that person a coward, as depression can make someone think completely and totally incorrectly (use poor logic). But it's most certainly a choice that the individual makes.
One of the biggest problems is that it is funny and pretty entertaining. That makes is even more dangerous in a way. There's only a small number of good kids in the whole thing. Tony being the best of them.
And it does have some good messages about the power of friendships. Treating people right. Bullying. Depression. Rape. Having outlets. Cliques. Peer pressure. The need for communication and getting help. Doing the right thing. etc But that kind serves to further (insidiously) obfuscate the 'blame' thing I mentioned above.
Overall, I do think it's worth watching, if you keep these ideas all in mind as you get lost in the story.
Spoiler: Spoiler about the next season.
It is setting up to be about a school shooting/murder (final scene foreshadowing). Again, it appears the blame is being shifted to other people as well. Which is disappointing.
OP, I know my review was scathing, but I do think the show is worth watching.
Thanks. I started last night. Couple shows in. Like it so far but has a depressing feel about it where know where ends and I like the "victim" Hannah. Will stick with it.
PS. Good call Deep....appears not a show for 13 year olds or even any immature High Schooler for that matter.
It gets much heavier too. It's
interesting how views on certain characters develops over time.
. I do think it's instructive for younger girls if watching w a parent and discussing all the themes afterwards. Embarrassing sure, but a good way to have multiples of 'the conversation' in a format where the kid will be willing to talk, and importantly, actually relate to it. Probably an effective way to guide a kid towards the right path.
I mean, what kids are forced to deal with in today's world is so much more intense at such younger ages that it would shock most parents I think.
Meh. Thats exactly what we did with my 15 year old. Wasnt worth it. The messages you are seeing while valid takes as detached observer (as I was ) are not what teen girls are seeing. Trust me on that.
Did you talk a lot w her about it or no? That's the instructive part imo.
Every episode. And the my wife made us throw in the towel after ep 6 I think. We continued to watch and I changed our Netflix password until the storm blew over.
It hits way too close to home.
Fair enough. Everybody's got a different situation. And each family dynamic is unique unto itself.
I mean, for me personally, I've never been one to want to shield kids. The reality is, they are going to be exposed to it either way, so trying to guide them might be helpful. At worst a wash. I know if my parents denied me, I'd move heaven and earth to experience whatever it was. In this case I'd finish the series at a friend's or on the laptop via torrent.
Yeah, My daughter probably the least shielded girl you will meet (consider who you are talking to here bro - shes grown up around hippies. When my wife, my daughter and I are at concerts or festivals together it is repeatedly stated by observers that she is the adult out of the 3 of us) .... but this one served no learning purpose. I mean it did, we had the talks, but at that age it is overpowered by the message that THEY see. and that message is what I said in my first response. After a few episodes we felt like that message (and Im not saying my daughter wanted to off herself or anything) continually overpowered whatever productive counterpoints we can bring up. Its hard to describe. Deep, 8893 people with daughters around mine can probably relate But its all wrapped up in the social media age (as you mentioned) and self image and bullying and these are all REAL concerns these days. More than ever.
Another problem I had is that I have a close friend who's in suicide prevention, mostly for veterans, but her gripe was that there didn't seem to be any other viable option for her when things started to go south and the truth is there ARE resources for help that work. The show almost makes it seem like that was the only solution. Even a PSA before or after each episode with a number would have helped.
There was shorter thread right about the time it came out. I had the car crash mentality and watched the whole thing in two days. As far as "glorifying suicide" I really don't see it. The graphic depiction doesn't make it seem like a walk in the park. And all the kids continued to talk scalito about her after she died. It's not like there's a pity party for her. Clay makes a point of pointing that out numerous times. I think it was realistic in portraying people's actions and how even kids who seem perfect do awful things.
I forgot her name but the brainiac girl who made up the lesbian story about Hannah. The brainiac guy who gropes her in the restaurant. The baller who steals Clays notes to her. Even Clay is a jerk to her multiple times. It broke my heart when he didn't mention her haircut. His comments about the poem broke my heart. The school counselor...I'm dumbfounded how he didn't find her plea to be suicidal but unfortunately I bet that happens a lot.
I work in education and I really enjoyed it. Well enjoy is a messed up word but you know what I mean. The acting is really quite good all the way around. Clay and Hannah's little moments are always amazing-good and bad. Being "anti-guy" is an...interesting take. Obviously
the show shines Bryce in a negative light but all other male characters are in some way sympathetic characters. Justin's life is a disaster, the Asian bball kid proved Hannah's story to be somewhat unreliable. And...others. [\SPOILER]. On season 2,
the photo kid going on a shooting spree is speculation. I saw the "teaser" and it was clearly fan-made. I think it's more likely to follow the trial and more details about Hannah and her relationships with the 13 others. That said, I feel like the photo kid IS planning a shooting but it is thwarted in some way or another. [\SPOILER]
When I say glorifying suicide, I mean, the scene itself is sad, but almost beautiful (almost romantic) and cathartic, with regard to pain. It's really well shot actually, from a cinematic perspective.
There is a large element of both the system and her peers failing Hannah. And while that may be true to a smaller extent, the real message should be that she failed herself in a way. Because make no mistake, suicide ultimately is a choice. And no one can truly stop it from happening, but themselves.
And it is self indulgently melodramatic to the extreme to be leaving tapes blaming everyone else for your suicide, as essentially a (co) murderer. This ultimately 'glamorizes' the suicide as well. It paints Hannah as the 'victim', largely (un)responsible for her own reactions/choice.
Some of my thinking is based on talking with a number of psychologists and counselors about it. They are damn near universally disappointed in the messages this series portrays.
There's a million articles on the same subject:
Here's a young girl who gets it: How '13 Reasons Why' gets suicide wrong: Voices
Netflix’s 13 Reasons Why is an irresponsible dramatisation of teenage suicide
'13 Reasons Why' is provocative and devastating. Is it also dangerous?
I could repost for hours, but: last peer discussion about hannah trial - Google Search
No, but the most 'likable' characters, Tony and Clay, absolutely purport this sort of thing, which serves to underscore it. And the whole 'system/peers failing Hannah' thing. Even Kat, the girl who moved, blames the school and it's culture. So it sends a message that this is the take away.
Some guys are 'off the hook', but more often it's guys like Montgomery (the bully) and Bryce. Marcus, is nothing but cold, incredibly self interested, and wholly disrespectful of women/peers
(treating hannah like crap at the diner/clay weed).
How many girls are truly looked on as not victims? Only one if you are really being honest: the Asian girl.
As far as guys go, it's more a overall cultural thing in the series. In my experience, in general, girls are far more cruel to each other than guys are to girls, especially in middle and high school. 'Mean Girls' is a real thing.
How do you feel it's speculation? The entire last episode builds up to it. Tyler being relentlessly picked on and ostracized, purchasing a pistol, securing his weapons cache before his mom sees it, creating and curating a 'kill list'--as displayed when he takes down Alex's photo while recalling a time Alex stuck up for him, etc etc
What I failed to mention above is that 13 Reasons Why should be a show about mental illness, and how to deal with that as young adults and systemically. I wanted to put a quote from the USA Today piece:
But for a supposedly important discussion of teen suicide, mental illness isn’t explicitly mentioned in any of the 13 episodes. Hannah explains the reasons that caused her to commit suicide, but the show fails to acknowledge that 90% of people who commit suicide suffer from mental illness. While external circumstances such as bullying can contribute to suicide, the show misses the opportunity to discuss the underlying cause.
It's a well done piece, even more so as it was written by an 18 year old girl who's dealt with some of the same problems. I'd repost it in it's entirety, as it makes salient point after salient point, but that's generally frowned on here. I encourage anyone with a remote interest to have a read.
I think obviously that there will be an event focused on Tyler and his plans but I don't think it will have the same composition as season 1 whereTyler offs those students and gives his rationale, which a lot of people seem to think the premise will be. I think it goes through the trial and new events arise. I really want to know how Tony is the one she puts in charge. They show them interacting like once. Is it just because she knew he had the equipment and was in general a good dude? What happens to Justin? What happens with Alex? Does Bryce face charges for the rapes of Hannah and Jess? What do her parents do after they hear the tapes? All these things and more most be addressed. I actually agree with how the boys are portrayed but that's a Hollywood problem not a 13 reason why problem. I actually wrote a paper on it in college using Superbad and Mean Girls (not a bad research model haha). There aren't really many positive examples of adolescent men like anywhere in movies/tv. Jeff is the best dude ever and he dies with the world thinking he was drunk driving!?[\SPOILER]
This is very true.
Haha I know right? Never thought of that.
I added an addendum to my post above which summarizes some of what I was trying to say. The girl who wrote it makes the point far more eloquently than I. Humbling coming from an 18 year old high school student.
This was one of the best shows I've watched in 2017. It's really not for kids, though.
Just got through episode 11 (Clay's tape). Very good drama and analysis above by all. Semi depressing but want to see how it ends....
For some reason I was thinking about this show today and the whole “they don’t talk about mental illness at all.” You don’t need to have a mental illness to commit suicide. That’s all
Anyone slog through S2 yet? I just finished episode 5. Not sure what to make of this season
Finished it, not much you can say without spoiling.
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