‘24 vs. ‘23

[superjohn]

For ‘04
Taliek isn’t Newton but he was a dog defensively to get into Newton who’s one of the best players on this team. Then you have the Ben vs Cam matchup and we know Cam has no shot there. Maybe Castle? But even then Ben was a pretty unguardable player no matter who you put in front of him and Cam would have the responsibility of keeping Brown from getting to the rim who wasn’t a slouch himself on that switch. Either that or yeah, Rashad off the bench.

Brown vs Castle is a wash as teams have shown you can neutralize him if you make him shoot. Plus good luck to him trying to get to the rim with Emeka waiting for him and just that team leading the country in blocks overall.

The only advantage ‘24 would have offensively would be Karaban taking Boone out the paint. Even then you can sub in Charlie if need be who would have the athleticism and skill to keep up with him while also being a mismatch at the other end or just play really small by putting Dehnam at the 4. On the other side of the coin ‘24 has no answer if Karaban struggles with Boone or Charlie in the paint.

This team is great, but I don’t think it’s as much from a talent perspective as it is just a really great scheme combined with the level of competition there is nowadays. Certain guys from that era were straight up unguardable no matter what system they were in. While also being dogs on defense with DPOYs behind them.

For ‘09

Much closer matchup wise and I’m talking with Dyson. Even then that team without Dyson fought tooth and nail in a MSU home game in the Final Four.

I was preparing to really nerd out on this matchup but I decided to delete as it’d make the post way too long. Lol

I admit a pretty personal bias for ‘09 as they are one of my favorite teams despite not winning it all. They might be the best defensive team when healthy out of everyone.

Price, Dyson, Robinson, Adrien, and Thabeet is a super intimidating group to go against. Subbing Kemba off the bench doesn’t help either who had a knack for getting turnovers and making it hell for guys to get the ball across the half court line. Averaged over a steal a game as a freshman. For reference, Diarra averages 0.8 this year.

These conversations are really fun for me.

You made the point that there's nobody on this team as good at Emeka and Ben which I agree with. I pointed out the other three starters on this team are better than the other three starters on the '04 team.

I'm not going to try and do a simulation of the game if they played each other because it's pointless with two different eras/styles of play. Results would be different if they played the game in '04 as opposed to 2024.

It was a bunch of one on one back then and dumping it down low to Okafor with big to big passing. The offense is more complex now and relies much more on cutting and ball movement.

I think '04 was more talented overall and bigger despite Clingan dwarfing all of them but they turned it on and off, this team doesn't turn it on and off and this team runs better offense.

The talent was better back then in college hoops but it's currently balanced out by the NBA being so against traditional big men and all the old kids still in college because of Covid/transfer stuff.

 

[LStudfellow]

All he did was ask the question. I think this team has a chance to become our best team ever if they stay healthy the rest of the season.

I hit the "send" button by accident so I did not get out what I was trying to say... here is my response to @superjohn in full:

I am all for giving these guys the love and adulation they are earning. They have come together more quickly than any of us could imagine, and that is despite the significant injuries to arguably 2 of their 4 or 5 best players in the first half of the year. Certainly 2 of the 3 to 4 most important, as well.

That having been said... come on, are you really going to put out there that you think this team, even as they continue to evolve through the end of this year, could beat the '99 or '04 teams? Sorry, but no way.

First, no one on this team is covering junior Rip Hamilton for a whole game. He would be the best player on the court in that theoretical matchup, hands down. Secondly, I will put senior Ricky Moore on any one of the guards and he will take them out of the game. Thirdly, I think 4 of the 5 matchups favor the '99 team... and Voskhul will almost certainly hold his own against Donovan Clingan.

The college game is still enjoyable to watch, but even in the last 25 years guys are leaving earlier and not developing at the college level to the level they were back in 1999, or even 2004. There is a big difference between junior Rip Hamilton, junior Kevin Freeman, senior Ricky Moore and freshman Stephon Castle, sophomore Alex Karaban and sophomore Donovan Clingan. The growth in those years is often huge, and trying to compare them, and then acting like this year's group could measure up to the 1999 group or the Emeka/Ben as juniors 2004 team doesn't work once you dig into the matchup.

Theoretically, if you could keep this year's team together for next year and have a sophomore Castle, sophomore Stewart, sophomore Ball, junior Karaban and junior Clingan then yes, that would be a much more fair comparison.

 

[Deleted at users request]

I hit the "send" button by accident so I did not get out what I was trying to say... here is my response to @superjohn in full:

I am all for giving these guys the love and adulation they are earning. They have come together more quickly than any of us could imagine, and that is despite the significant injuries to arguably 2 of their 4 or 5 best players in the first half of the year. Certainly 2 of the 3 to 4 most important, as well.

That having been said... come on, are you really going to put out there that you think this team, even as they continue to evolve through the end of this year, could beat the '99 or '04 teams? Sorry, but no way.

First, no one on this team is covering junior Rip Hamilton for a whole game. He would be the best player on the court in that theoretical matchup, hands down. Secondly, I will put senior Ricky Moore on any one of the guards and he will take them out of the game. Thirdly, I think 4 of the 5 matchups favor the '99 team... and Voskhul will almost certainly hold his own against Donovan Clingan.

The college game is still enjoyable to watch, but even in the last 25 years guys are leaving earlier and not developing at the college level to the level they were back in 1999, or even 2004. There is a big difference between junior Rip Hamilton, junior Kevin Freeman, senior Ricky Moore and freshman Stephon Castle, sophomore Alex Karaban and sophomore Donovan Clingan. The growth in those years is often huge, and trying to compare them, and then acting like this year's group could measure up to the 1999 group or the Emeka/Ben as juniors 2004 team doesn't work once you dig into the matchup.

Theoretically, if you could keep this year's team together for next year and have a sophomore Castle, sophomore Stewart, sophomore Ball, junior Karaban and junior Clingan then yes, that would be a much more fair comparison.

Thanks for covering ‘99. That’s all it comes down too. There’s just no way for ‘24 to matchup defensively with ‘99 or 04’ while both of those teams were as elite as they come on that side of the ball and had stars who could carry an offense.

This ‘24 team is great for its time.

 

[superjohn]

I hit the "send" button by accident so I did not get out what I was trying to say... here is my response to @superjohn in full:

I am all for giving these guys the love and adulation they are earning. They have come together more quickly than any of us could imagine, and that is despite the significant injuries to arguably 2 of their 4 or 5 best players in the first half of the year. Certainly 2 of the 3 to 4 most important, as well.

That having been said... come on, are you really going to put out there that you think this team, even as they continue to evolve through the end of this year, could beat the '99 or '04 teams? Sorry, but no way.

First, no one on this team is covering junior Rip Hamilton for a whole game. He would be the best player on the court in that theoretical matchup, hands down. Secondly, I will put senior Ricky Moore on any one of the guards and he will take them out of the game. Thirdly, I think 4 of the 5 matchups favor the '99 team... and Voskhul will almost certainly hold his own against Donovan Clingan.

The college game is still enjoyable to watch, but even in the last 25 years guys are leaving earlier and not developing at the college level to the level they were back in 1999, or even 2004. There is a big difference between junior Rip Hamilton, junior Kevin Freeman, senior Ricky Moore and freshman Stephon Castle, sophomore Alex Karaban and sophomore Donovan Clingan. The growth in those years is often huge, and trying to compare them, and then acting like this year's group could measure up to the 1999 group or the Emeka/Ben as juniors 2004 team doesn't work once you dig into the matchup.

Theoretically, if you could keep this year's team together for next year and have a sophomore Castle, sophomore Stewart, sophomore Ball, junior Karaban and junior Clingan then yes, that would be a much more fair comparison.

Again, what year is the game being played?

I think starting Okafor and Boone together would get exploited today.

As for the guys being so much older back then. We start two 5th year guys now.

 

[REB1094]

Found a website https://www.ncaagamesim.com/gamesimulator.asp. I don't know how it works or if there's any real math involved, but it's better than anything I can do so have fun with it

5 simulations when last year's team is at "home"

• 75-60 in favor of 2023 (1-0)
• 84-57 2023 (2-0)
• 85-73 2024 (2-1)
• 69-67 2024 (2-2)
• 78-63 2023 (3-2)

5 simulations when this year's team is at "home"

• 99-93 2023 (4-2)
• 91-67 2024 (4-3)
• 89-88 2024 (4-4)
• 98-75 2023 (5-4)
• 92-70 2024 (5-5) lmao

Tiebreaker after unchecking the "Home Court Advantage" box: 82-65 2023 so 2023 wins

• Sanogo 18/8, Hawkins 17 and three 3s, Andre 13, Joey C 12 and two 3s
• Cam 15/4stl, Newton 14/7/6, Clingan 14, Karaban 9

 

[superjohn]

Found a website https://www.ncaagamesim.com/gamesimulator.asp. I don't know how it works or if there's any real math involved, but it's better than anything I can do so have fun with it

5 simulations when last year's team is at "home"

• 75-60 in favor of 2023 (1-0)
• 84-57 2023 (2-0)
• 85-73 2024 (2-1)
• 69-67 2024 (2-2)
• 78-63 2023 (3-2)

5 simulations when this year's team is at "home"

• 99-93 2023 (4-2)
• 91-67 2024 (4-3)
• 89-88 2024 (4-4)
• 98-75 2023 (5-4)
• 92-70 2024 (5-5) lmao

Tiebreaker after unchecking the "Home Court Advantage" box: 82-65 2023 so 2023 wins

• Sanogo 18/8, Hawkins 17 and three 3s, Andre 13, Joey C 12 and two 3s
• Cam 15/4stl, Newton 14/7/6, Clingan 14, Karaban 9

Haha, so stupid.

Does '23 Clingan, Karaban, Newton, Diarra, and Samson outperform '24 them?

 

[Deleted at users request]

Again, what year is the game being played?

I think starting Okafor and Boone together would get exploited today.

As for the guys being so much older back then. We start two 5th year guys now.

‘04 has the roster to adjust and start Charlie who was a stretch 4 and slide Dehnam Brown down without sacrificing any size or skill to Karaban there and keep up with todays game. I don’t see how Karaban wins that matchup against Charlie on either end. You’ll also be telling guys like Ben and Rashad that they can shoot MORE which is crazy to think about.

I think the difference for the older guys is that the 3 and 4 year players were 4* recruits we developed over time and not guys who were initially recruited to play at low major schools who are then in the program for a year or two. So not only are they not the same as far as raw talent goes, they also don’t have the same amount of development time.

Think about some of the amazing PG play we’ve had. It took those guys 3 years minimum to figure out how to properly and efficiently play the position and run offense. There’s not enough continuity in college basketball nowadays for that which imo is what causes for teams (especially the blue bloods) to not be as good anymore.

 

[REB1094]

Haha, so stupid.

Does '23 Clingan, Karaban, Newton, Diarra, and Samson outperform '24 them?

Just ran 3 more games

• Clingan - 2.3 PPG / 5.0 RPG / 0blk in 2023, 13.0 PPG / 4.3 RPG / 0.7blk in 2024
• Karaban - 9.3 PPG / 3.3 RPG in 2023, 6.0 PPG / 2.7 RPG in 2024
• Newton - 10.0 PPG / 3.7 APG / 2.3 RPG in 2023, 12.3 PPG / 5.3 APG / 6.7 RPG in 2024
• Diarra - 2.7 PPG / 1.0 APG / 1.3 RPG in 2023, 8.7 PPG / 1.0 APG / 2.3 RPG in 2024
• Samson - 0 PPG / 0.7 RPG in 2023, 5.3 PPG / 3.3 RPG in 2024

Definitely dumb and not worth much thought, but I have to admit it's pretty fun lol

 

[superjohn]

‘04 has the roster to adjust and start Charlie who was a stretch 4 and slide Dehnam Brown down without sacrificing any size or skill to Karaban there and keep up with todays game. I don’t see how Karaban wins that matchup against Charlie on either end. You’ll also be telling guys like Ben and Rashad that they can shoot MORE which is crazy to think about.

I think the difference for the older guys is that the 3 and 4 year players were 4* recruits we developed over time and not guys who were initially recruited to play at low major schools who are then in the program for a year or two. So not only are they not the same as far as raw talent goes, they also don’t have the same amount of development time.

Think about some of the amazing PG play we’ve had. It took those guys 3 years minimum to figure out how to properly and efficiently play the position and run offense. There’s not enough continuity in college basketball nowadays for that which imo is what causes for teams (especially the blue bloods) to not be as good anymore.

Who cares who they were recruited by? Newton and Cam are arguably the best backcourt in the country and they work beautifully with their teammates.

Freshman Charlie would have serious trouble guarding sophomore Karaban, Charlie had trouble guarding everyone.

 

[Punkbo]

Pump the brakes with the “ Andre most entertaining player” BS

Ya really buy that? Guess what UConn men’s basketball did not start 10 years ago

Entertaining is a subjective category so please feel free to disagree. I’ve been a fan for over 40 years but I admit there are others on this forum who have been fans for longer. Perhaps you’re one of those people.

 

[Deleted at users request]

Who cares who they were recruited by? Newton and Cam are arguably the best backcourt in the country and they work beautifully with their teammates.

Freshman Charlie would have serious trouble guarding sophomore Karaban, Charlie had trouble guarding everyone.

yeah that’s where it gets weird for me. They are 100% some of the best players in the country today. But I think that speaks a lot about the talent that’s in college basketball currently. Which goes back to blue bloods no longer holding onto their 4* 5* guys that they develop for 3-4 years but instead bringing in low level transfers to try and win now because they are plug in play guys.

Would they be the best players in the country during that mid 2000s-mid 2010s span?

 

[superjohn]

yeah that’s where it gets weird for me. They are 100% some of the best players in the country today. But I think that speaks a lot about the talent that’s in college basketball currently. Which goes back to blue bloods no longer holding onto their 4* 5* guys that they develop for 3-4 years but instead bringing in low level transfers to try and win now because they are plug in play guys.

Would they be the best players in the country during that mid 2000s-mid 2010s span?

I think the Newton Cam backcourt is better than the Taliek Gordon backcourt.

 

[Deleted at users request]

I think the Newton Cam backcourt is better than the Taliek Gordon backcourt.

Don’t agree unless you’re only looking at offense.

Taliek’s job wasn’t to score. But he had almost a 3:1 assist to TO ratio and is the best defender of the bunch. Gordon is unquestionably the best player of that group by far and it’s not close. I’d take that backcourt simply off the fact that Taliek would do a good job of guarding Newton and Ben could drop 30 on Cam and get buckets at will. These guys are not at will scorers. They need the offense to get them looks.

Hurley has done a great job of balancing great recruiting with transfer portal guys that fit to make us far more talented than the teams we play for this time period though.

 

[cohenzone]

Gotta spell “Bialosuknia” correctly. Other than that, UConn at the buzzer on a Hawkins 3.

 

[superjohn]

Don’t agree unless you’re only looking at offense.

Taliek’s job wasn’t to score. But he had almost a 3:1 assist to TO ratio and is the best defender of the bunch. Gordon is unquestionably the best player of that group by far and it’s not close. I’d take that backcourt simply off the fact that Taliek would do a good job of guarding Newton and Ben could drop 30 on Cam and get buckets at will. These guys are not at will scorers. They need the offense to get them looks.

Hurley has done a great job of balancing great recruiting with transfer portal guys that fit to make us far more talented than the teams we play for this time period though.

Nope, I would take them overall over Taliek and Ben. Taliek couldn't score, let's not make it out that he chose not to because of all he had around him. He could make a layup and a little teardrop, that was it.

Gordon is by far the most talented player in that group and the best player in that group but I disagree on how huge the gap is at the college level. We all know Gordon was the best scorer of the bunch and by far the most athletic but I never liked Gordon handling the ball much. Newton and Cam are a more versatile backcourt, a better shooting backcourt, a better handling backcourt, a better passing backcourt. Taliek and Gordon were a better defensive backcourt.

You keep trying to do a simulation. I'm not playing that game. All I'll say is obviously Cam wouldn't be guarding Gordon.

 

[Deleted at users request]

Nope, I would take them overall over Taliek and Ben. Taliek couldn't score, let's not make it out that he chose not to because of all he had around him. He could make a layup and a little teardrop, that was it.

Gordon is by far the most talented player in that group and the best player in that group but I disagree on how huge the gap is at the college level. We all know Gordon was the best scorer of the bunch and by far the most athletic but I never liked Gordon handling the ball much. Newton and Cam are a more versatile backcourt, a better shooting backcourt, a better handling backcourt, a better passing backcourt. Taliek and Gordon were a better defensive backcourt.

You keep trying to do a simulation. I'm not playing that game. All I'll say is obviously Cam wouldn't be guarding Gordon.

Agree to disagree. Fwiw Gordon averaged over 4 assists a game to go with Taliek’s 6.5. Pretty good at passing the ball. (Both averaged more assists than their counterparts actually up to this point).

We have to put some respect on just how good our program’s history is. It did not start in 2016. Lol

 

[Hans Sprungfeld]

Ignoring that the majority of posts stray from the OP request to compare '24 & '23, I'll suggest that most here who have warm memories of 1999, 2004, 2009, and 2023, also have a sense of how each of those seasons developed.

1999 was pretty much start-to-finish great, with an illness dip.

In 2004, Ben Gordon wasn't BEN GORDON for the entire season. Ask JC, who repeatedly said that he had to keep telling BG how good he was.

2009 got derailed by Dyson's injury just as the most enthusiastic fans were growing in belief that the team could beat UNC, not unlike how the '99 team beat Duke. In other words, it was, "Not so fast, ACC annointers” 2.0.

2006 doesn't get mentioned because it never dominated, and then dropped off without fulfilling its own presumed destiny.

2011 doesn't get mentioned because we tend to allow the 9-9 regular season BE record to overshadowbthe BE Tournament and an undefeated OOC schedule. And 2014

A year ago, there was a strong sense on this board that the team had an emotionally immature & volatile coach who could recruit well but couldn't win either close games or big ones. That perception didn't start its meaningful shift until the second half of the opening NCAA Tourney game against Iona. And even then, it took some time to sink in, before what we were witnessing became ever clearer.

From that vantage point, I'd say that on this date, 2024 beats 2023 because it has a much better coaching staff.

As with each year considered, this team is still in formation, and impressively far along compared with its competition, and also considering the multiple disruptions caused by injuries and coresponding needs to adjust lineups, strategies, and styles of play.

With no game scheduled until Xavier a week from now, I forecast an interesting week in this forum until next Sunday when Xavier visits XL.

 

[BigErnMcCracken]

We have to put some respect on just how good our program’s history is. It did not start in 2016. Lol

I think you’re lecturing people that have been watching the program a lot longer than you have about the past, in fairness.

 

[Deleted at users request]

In 2004, Ben Gordon wasn't BEN GORDON for the entire season. Ask JC, who repeatedly said that he had to keep telling BG how good he was.

I love how Ben Gordon scored 27+ 4 times before the new year and Calhoun still pushed him like this. Yet Newton started off Big East play shooting 30% from the field and we don’t hear nothing about it from Hurley and somehow people want to say any combination of player with Newton compares to him.

Different expectations.

I think you’re lecturing people that have been watching the program a lot longer than you have about the past, in fairness.

Probably, doesn’t make what I said any less true when we’re really trying to put Newton and Cam in the same convos as Ben Gordon.

Ben could’ve been playing with another boneyarder for all I care, still taking him over this backcourt.

 

[InTheRed]

The one thing the 24 team has that the 23 team didnt is experience winning a title. The entire coaching staff that coaches the 24 team has a title. Several players have a title. All that experience is fed to the rest of the team. This team wont have a skid like last year's team because of that. But, if you compare the level of play in the ncaa tournament to this year's team right now, well the answer is easy. I am willing to wait to decide until this March plays out though before deciding which title team is better.

 

[uconngb]

There were a few spots last night where I thought "Castle is Andre 2.0"

When he kept taking and missing 3s??

I kid, I kid.

 

[QDOG5]

At the present time I would vote for '23. '24 is still evolving. As was mentioned earlier in the thread the '23 center combo was insane. We won't see that this year. I hope Samson continues to improve. His rebound to minutes played rate is lacking.

 

[superjohn]

Agree to disagree. Fwiw Gordon averaged over 4 assists a game to go with Taliek’s 6.5. Pretty good at passing the ball. (Both averaged more assists than their counterparts actually up to this point).

We have to put some respect on just how good our program’s history is. It did not start in 2016. Lol

And turned it over a lot more. If stats are your thing it's really not going to go too well for you arguing Taliek and Ben over Tristen and Cam.

This is incredibly boring though.

 

[XLCenterFan]

When he kept taking and missing 3s??

I kid, I kid.

lol. That was part of it, yes. And how the D can give him threes.

 

[HuskyHawk]

Nope, I would take them overall over Taliek and Ben. Taliek couldn't score, let's not make it out that he chose not to because of all he had around him. He could make a layup and a little teardrop, that was it.

Gordon is by far the most talented player in that group and the best player in that group but I disagree on how huge the gap is at the college level. We all know Gordon was the best scorer of the bunch and by far the most athletic but I never liked Gordon handling the ball much. Newton and Cam are a more versatile backcourt, a better shooting backcourt, a better handling backcourt, a better passing backcourt. Taliek and Gordon were a better defensive backcourt.

You keep trying to do a simulation. I'm not playing that game. All I'll say is obviously Cam wouldn't be guarding Gordon.

Both Taliek and Ben are vastly better defenders than Cam or Tristen. Way, way better. Also just as good a passing backcourt if not better. Shooting to Cam and Newton. Ben and Taliek better ball handlers, both better than either guy this year.

 

[superjohn]

both better than either guy this year.

Lolz, Newton is way better than Taliek. They play different positions but Cam is also a better player than Taliek.

 

[Hans Sprungfeld]

We've got 6 more days to develop skirmishes like brushfires.

Do we have it in us to break out into a civil war? Can we avoid it?
Will someone claim that's the purpose of a message board?

Who's the least deserving UConn player to ever get a National Championship ring?

I think I'm going to watch a 2023 NCAA replay for each of the next six days. Anybody else?

 

[Kembafan]

‘23 beats ‘24 easily imo. This team can get much better but I think that team was better on both sides of the floor.

 

[Storrs South]

It really depends on the point in time. If we are talking at this exact point in the season both years it's hard to not pick 2024.

If we are talking first two months of season it's hard to not pick 2023.

Asymmetrical comparisons like March / April 2023 (what we can call the finished product) compared to today's team well its also a no brainer.

We now have 2 months and change to see how this team evolves hopefully at full health.

I agree with the notion the offense is better this year and defense last year generally and the analytics bear that out.

One other thing I'd add is this team is more poised. The close games and road wins are representative of that. Last year depth wise though was truly an embarrassment of riches.

 

[mauconnfan]

Hey question I have without looking it up. Is the 2010-11 team the last to start 17-2 or better?