Way too early POY watch

[bbballfan23]

I think to be national player of the year, someone has to be clearly the best player on her team. I would say that Collier is the best player on UConn this year, but others would say Samuelson, so it’s definitely not clear.

Question: does a head coach nominate one player from his/her team for NPOY awards? Maybe some but not others?

I’m not sure if this. My vote changes from week to week on whom I would cast my vote for between Ionescu, Lou & Pheesa. There are 3 different NPOY awards, right? Maybe just give 1 to each of them and save us the headache?

 

[Grad1990]

Meh. Ionescu played 32 minutes. Oregon has a really short bench. Chavez played 23 minutes, Gildon 17, Giomi 18 (probably a career high for her) and Yaeger coming off an injury played 6. That's all the available players they have. Not sure what some of you are expecting, or if you just want to complain. I kinda notice that any time a non-UConn player does something statistically significant some here feel the need to try to de-legitimize it somehow.

I agreed with you earlier in the this thread that Ionescu gets the edge. She is a terrific talent. I don't think UConn was ever in the running to get her.

I remember seeing her in the McDonalds All America game where she showed that she should have been ranked number one coming out of high school (IMO she was the best player). IMO Ionescu was the one that got away.

I am much more impressed with her this year than the last two. She has become a transformative player. She makes her team mates better, and she is truly a handful whenever she has the ball. Mostly, she is cleaner and more fundamentally sound than most all WCB players. Emphasis on fundamental!

As I said...she is a real talent.

That said...there is much to the argument that if Pheesa or Lou were logging the same minutes as Ionescu, the race would be much closer. As UConn enters conference play, Pheesa and Lou will not get much more than 20 to 25 minutes of PT per game.

Also, the real test of who is the more dominant player would really only be seen in head-to-head competition...which is not likely, if at all, before the Final Four.

UConn Players have a long and consistent history of dominating competing All Americas from other teams. I believe in a game between Oregon and Uconn that the results would be no different. Ionescu would struggle to put up numbers while Pheesa and Lou would be consistent with their averages.

Pheesa and Ionescu are very different players...but both are the complete package. They contribute to their teams in different ways. Both will make solid pros. However....Ionescu's contributions have the benefit of being more flamboyant and measurable than Pheesa's intangibles can be measured as a work horse and inside draw.

Additionally, Lou is a once-every-few-years-they-come-along-scorer. She has a skill that will be highly coveted in the pros. Above all other scorers making the transition from college to pro! Lately she is emerging as a complete player. When all is said and done, Lou is talented enough to give Ionescu and Pheesa a legitimate run.

Finally, Ionescu is on a team that may have one or two other players that will make marginal pros. UConn has 5 players starting that will all be first round draft picks and will all make solid pros. In comparisons between who adds more to their teams this anomaly creates distortions in who looks like and is the best player. If Lou or Pheesa were surrounded by less talented players....I don't know that we wouldn't be talking about one of them as POY based on the numbers they were putting up (which would be substantially higher).

FWIW, I think Oregon is a very good team this year. Better than I expected them to be. The players have great chemistry and they play with purpose...a sign of real leadership. In the tournament I would very much like to see a UConn/Oregon matchup ...it's about time these two teams face each other.

As I said...I give Ionescu the edge....but optics and circumstances favor her.

 

[nwhoopfan]

Well if UConn was in the Pac 12 Katie Lou and Pheesa would both play about 40 minutes a game, if the Cal game was any indication....

 

[Shmermerer]

I agree it's way to early, but since you chose Anigwe over McCowan I'll simply point out that...

- McCowan is averaging 17 and 12.7 in just 26 minutes a game while learning to play with one of the better rebounders in the country.

- She takes 10 shots a game vs Anigwe's 17. Extrapolate with her shooting % (70%), adding no FTs, and she's at 25 pts/gm.

- There's little doubt she's the most effective rebounder in the country and she also has better or comparable numbers in all other major categories save 3 ptrs.

Way to early, but food for thought.

I agreed with you earlier in the this thread that Ionescu gets the edge. She is a terrific talent. I don't think UConn was ever in the running to get her.

I remember seeing her in the McDonalds All America game where she showed that she should have been ranked number one coming out of high school (IMO she was the best player). IMO Ionescu was the one that got away.

I am much more impressed with her this year than the last two. She has become a transformative player. She makes her team mates better, and she is truly a handful whenever she has the ball. Mostly, she is cleaner and more fundamentally sound than most all WCB players. Emphasis on fundamental!

As I said...she is a real talent.

That said...there is much to the argument that if Pheesa or Lou were logging the same minutes as Ionescu, the race would be much closer. As UConn enters conference play, Pheesa and Lou will not get much more than 20 to 25 minutes of PT per game.

Also, the real test of who is the more dominant player would really only be seen in head-to-head competition...which is not likely, if at all, before the Final Four.

UConn Players have a long and consistent history of dominating competing All Americas from other teams. I believe in a game between Oregon and Uconn that the results would be no different. Ionescu would struggle to put up numbers while Pheesa and Lou would be consistent with their averages.

Pheesa and Ionescu are very different players...but both are the complete package. They contribute to their teams in different ways. Both will make solid pros. However....Ionescu's contributions have the benefit of being more flamboyant and measurable than Pheesa's intangibles can be measured as a work horse and inside draw.

Additionally, Lou is a once-every-few-years-they-come-along-scorer. She has a skill that will be highly coveted in the pros. Above all other scorers making the transition from college to pro! Lately she is emerging as a complete player. When all is said and done, Lou is talented enough to give Ionescu and Pheesa a legitimate run.

Finally, Ionescu is on a team that may have one or two other players that will make marginal pros. UConn has 5 players starting that will all be first round draft picks and will all make solid pros. In comparisons between who adds more to their teams this anomaly creates distortions in who looks like and is the best player. If Lou or Pheesa were surrounded by less talented players....I don't know that we wouldn't be talking about one of them as POY based on the numbers they were putting up (which would be substantially higher).

FWIW, I think Oregon is a very good team this year. Better than I expected them to be. The players have great chemistry and they play with purpose...a sign of real leadership. In the tournament I would very much like to see a UConn/Oregon matchup ...it's about time these two teams face each other.

As I said...I give Ionescu the edge....but optics and circumstances favor her.

Ionescu is averaging 34 minutes. Samuelson and Collier are averaging 31 and 33 minutes I believe.

 

[j66kicker]

FWIW, I think Oregon is a very good team this year. Better than I expected them to be. The players have great chemistry and they play with purpose...a sign of real leadership. In the tournament I would very much like to see a UConn/Oregon matchup ...it's about time these two teams face each other.

As I said...I give Ionescu the edge....but optics and circumstances favor her.

March 27, 2017 in Elite 8: UConn 90 - Oregon 52. Ionescu 15/8/3. Same thing if they run into UConn this season in the tourney. Sabrina is great, but she is slow. Speed kills.

 

[PAHuskeyFan]

Ionescu is averaging 34 minutes. Samuelson and Collier are averaging 31 and 33 minutes I believe.

Ok... "similar " minutes... the thing that troubles many viewers is when she comes out for the last time SOON after she gets the final piece of a triple double... in an otherwise blow out game/win.

 

[donalddoowop]

I believe Collier and KLS would have even higher ppg averages and rebound averages if they played deep into the fourth quarter in conference games. However, that would not be smart or good for the team. I don't think Geno cares about individual records and I believe many of the players do not either.

 

[jonson]

March 27, 2017 in Elite 8: UConn 90 - Oregon 52. Ionescu 15/8/3. Same thing if they run into UConn this season in the tourney. Sabrina is great, but she is slow. Speed kills.

So I guess it doesn't matter that Ionescu was a freshman that March (as were most of her teammates) and on a team that was seeded 11th and was supposed to be long gone from the tournament?

 

[jonson]

I don't think Geno cares about individual records and I believe many of the players do not either.

Maybe not now, but things seem to have been different when UCONN was establishing itself as a major player in WBB:

https://www.foxsports.com/college-b...a-wildcats-nykesha-sales-geno-auriemma-022916

 

[j66kicker]

So I guess it doesn't matter that Ionescu was a freshman that March (as were most of her teammates) and on a team that was seeded 11th and was supposed to be long gone from the tournament?

Yeah, you're right - maybe oughta tone down my prediction from 38 points to about 20. Sabrina was great then and she's still great. But has she gotten any faster?

 

[Plebe]

Sabrina thanks all of you:

 

[j66kicker]

Maybe not now, but things seem to have been different when UCONN was establishing itself as a major player in WBB:

https://www.foxsports.com/college-b...a-wildcats-nykesha-sales-geno-auriemma-022916

True, but this was an in-house UConn record which Sales easily would have broken if not for her untimely injury. Geno even cleared it with Kerry Bascom, the previous UConn record holder, ahead of time. I don't think he would have done this to break an official NCAA record, nor would have Perretta probably cooperated anyway. Plus it wasn't like leaving her in a blowout game. They started the game with her 'gimme' bucket and then gave Villanova and uncontested layup to begin the game 2-2. Just a nice gesture to a deserving player.

 

[MilfordHusky]

My problem with A’ja and Sabrina is not that they aren’t great players. My problem is with the writers who vote them the pre-season NPOY and treat them all season long as if they are or will be the NPOY. When there is a large portion of the season yet to be played, don’t treat someone as the presumptive NPOY, unless that player has already been NPOY and is clearly better than everyone else (Maya, Stewie).

I saw enough of A’ja in the summer to recognize that she is really good and was deserving of the NPOY and ROY awards. In the World Cup, however, the competition defended her well and showed that she still needs counter moves.

Sabrina is an unusual talent. I need to see more of her to judge better. Her foot speed appears to be her one weakness. Is it a real problem? I’m not sure. I’d look on her more favorably if she had a solid second half against ND in March. She was excellent in the first half, but I wanted her to keep it up and knock out the Irish. The green people slowed her down appreciably.

 

[Plebe]

I’d look on her more favorably if she had a solid second half against ND in March. She was excellent in the first half, but I wanted her to keep it up and knock out the Irish. The green people slowed her down appreciably.

And the world would look on UConn more favorably if UConn could've closed the deal against ND. Sometimes the opponent just makes the better plays.

 

[wallman]

Ok... "similar " minutes... the thing that troubles many lviewers is when she comes out for the last time SOON after she gets the final piece of a triple double... in an otherwise blow out game/win.

THIS. Just look at Oregons schedule. For a team that has been voted into the top four for the last 2 years, their schedule is embarrassing. Those players left as they were tired of the hype and the fact that their coach would not play them as he was more interested in getting national attention for one player and not his team.

Mike neighbors tried to show the PAC how you schedule to win and test his team and not play too many teams that would not help the team going forward. It appears that strategy was lost in this regard. Oregons team has not improved which is on the coach.

 

[PAHuskeyFan]

My problem with A’ja and Sabrina is not that they aren’t great players. My problem is with the writers who vote them the pre-season NPOY and treat them all season long as if they are or will be the NPOY. When there is a large portion of the season yet to be played, don’t treat someone as the presumptive NPOY, unless that player has already been NPOY and is clearly better than everyone else (Maya, Stewie).

I saw enough of A’ja in the summer to recognize that she is really good and was deserving of the NPOY and ROY awards. In the World Cup, however, the competition defended her well and showed that she still needs counter moves.

Sabrina is an unusual talent. I need to see more of her to judge better. Her foot speed appears to be her one weakness. Is it a real problem? I’m not sure. I’d look on her more favorably if she had a solid second half against ND in March. She was excellent in the first half, but I wanted her to keep it up and knock out the Irish. The green people slowed her down appreciably.

I completely agree with the "pre season NPOY" I'll call it "designation"... when not a single game has been played in the season. Further, It drives me bonkers when we get near the end of the season...primarily into the NCAA Tournament and the "anointed one's" first name changes to "NPOY Candidate" XYZ....and No other player is given similar title, even if they are widely expected to be in the final running, i.e. also a "Candidate". OH WELL... this award is no where near as important as National Champion.

 

[HopJim]

I believe Collier and KLS would have even higher ppg averages and rebound averages if they played deep into the fourth quarter in conference games. However, that would not be smart or good for the team. I don't think Geno cares about individual records and I believe many of the players do not either.

…..or if Geno subbed out the other starters more frequently, all of which have double digit averages, likely KLS and Collier would have higher stats. Tough to choose between the two. Has there ever been two players who shared the POY award?

 

[jonson]

THIS. Just look at Oregons schedule. For a team that has been voted into the top four for the last 2 years, their schedule is embarrassing. Those players left as they were tired of the hype and the fact that their coach would not play them as he was more interested in getting national attention for one player and not his team.

Mike neighbors tried to show the PAC how you schedule to win and test his team and not play too many teams that would not help the team going forward. It appears that strategy was lost in this regard. Oregons team has not improved which is on the coach.

I couldn't disagree more.

When Massey looks at the same out of conference schedule, he currently ranks it 10th among Division 1 WBB teams. That's higher than the strength of schedule for 6 of the other teams he currently lists in his top 10. I suppose you could say that Massey's system is flawed, but it's a long way from what he sees to "embarrassing.".

As for the transfers, these comments about playing time are completely off base, as are, in at least three cases, the account of the transfers. For instance:

Mallory McGwire (a 6'5" post) started for all of her freshman season and part of the next until she lost her starting spot to Satou Sabally about 8 games in, a change that was central to the team's success for the remainder of the season. That, and the recruitment of the second Sabally sister, since, at 6'4", Nyara Sabally is a much better and more versatile player than McGwire, are the likely reasons for the transfer. Sierra Campisano (a 6'2" forward/post) was the highest ranking recruit other than Ionescu in the 2016 class, but--for whatever reasons--she never panned out--and that despite being given a lot of minutes (and chances) her freshman and sophomore years until, by the end of last year, she was the last, or nearly the last, player off the bench. As a result, her transfer was, to my mind, inevitable. And at the risk of bursting through open doors, however many minutes Ionescu was on the court had absolutely no impact on the playing time for either of these players.

Aina Ayuso, the only guard among the players who left after last year and so the player most likely to be "tired of the hype," didn't transfer: she turned professional. In short, she simply decided that the college game (or the U.S.) wasn't for her. And she did get a fair amount of minutes as a freshman--certainly far more than she would have gotten from many coaches. As anyone who has watched Oregon for the past few years, or Gonzaga before that, knows, Graves plays his bench a lot--with this year the obvious exception since he has only 8 players most of the time. The one transfer that I find puzzling is Anneli Maley, who also received a fair amount of playing time as a freshman. Perhaps she felt what you suggest, or perhaps--and this seems to me more likely--at 6'2" she also was concerned about playing time with the arrival of Nyara Sabally. But, again, her minutes and Ionescu's had absolutely no relation to one another.

 

[NWHoopFan2]

THIS. Just look at Oregons schedule. For a team that has been voted into the top four for the last 2 years, their schedule is embarrassing. Those players left as they were tired of the hype and the fact that their coach would not play them as he was more interested in getting national attention for one player and not his team.

Mike neighbors tried to show the PAC how you schedule to win and test his team and not play too many teams that would not help the team going forward. It appears that strategy was lost in this regard. Oregons team has not improved which is on the coach.

If their schedule is so embarrassing how are they currently #3 in the RPI?

 

[NWHoopFan2]

I couldn't disagree more.

When Massey looks at the same out of conference schedule, he currently ranks it 10th among Division 1 WBB teams. That's higher than the strength of schedule for 6 of the other teams he currently lists in his top 10. I suppose you could say that Massey's system is flawed, but it's a long way from what he sees to "embarrassing.".

As for the transfers, these comments about playing time are completely off base, as are, in at least three cases, the account of the transfers. For instance:

Mallory McGwire (a 6'5" post) started for all of her freshman season and part of the next until she lost her starting spot to Satou Sabally about 8 games in, a change that was central to the team's success for the remainder of the season. That, and the recruitment of the second Sabally sister, since, at 6'4", Nyara Sabally is a much better and more versatile player than McGwire, are the likely reasons for the transfer. Sierra Campisano (a 6'2" forward/post) was the highest ranking recruit other than Ionescu in the 2016 class, but--for whatever reasons--she never panned out--and that despite being given a lot of minutes (and chances) her freshman and sophomore years until, by the end of last year, she was the last, or nearly the last, player off the bench. As a result, her transfer was, to my mind, inevitable. And at the risk of bursting through open doors, however many minutes Ionescu was on the court had absolutely no impact on the playing time for either of these players.

Aina Ayuso, the only guard among the players who left after last year and so the player most likely to be "tired of the hype," didn't transfer: she turned professional. In short, she simply decided that the college game (or the U.S.) wasn't for her. And she did get a fair amount of minutes as a freshman--certainly far more than she would have gotten from many coaches. As anyone who has watched Oregon for the past few years, or Gonzaga before that, knows, Graves plays his bench a lot--with this year the obvious exception since he has only 8 players most of the time. The one transfer that I find puzzling is Anneli Maley, who also received a fair amount of playing time as a freshman. Perhaps she felt what you suggest, or perhaps--and this seems to me more likely--at 6'2" she also was concerned about playing time with the arrival of Nyara Sabally. But, again, her minutes and Ionescu's had absolutely no relation to one another.

Maley’s transfer was also all about playing time based on comments she made to some of the other players. She prided herself on being a tough rebounder (with a limited offensive game) and saw the prospect of her playing time going down with Nyara Sabally, who is a great rebounder with a much better offensive game coming in this year. She transferred to TCU, got a waiver to play this year, but unfortunately for her she isn’t getting any more playing time.

 

[bbfanLA]

…..or if Geno subbed out the other starters more frequently, all of which have double digit averages, likely KLS and Collier would have higher stats. Tough to choose between the two. Has there ever been two players who shared the POY award?

Off the top of my head, I can think of a few times it happened involving UConn players when NPOY awards were split. In 2004, Diana Taurasi and Alana Beard split the awards while in 2010, Tina Charles and Maya Moore split them. In 2014, Breanna Stewart, Chiney Ogwumike and Odyssey Sims all won NPOY honors.

 

[Plebe]

THIS. Just look at Oregons schedule. For a team that has been voted into the top four for the last 2 years, their schedule is embarrassing. Those players left as they were tired of the hype and the fact that their coach would not play them as he was more interested in getting national attention for one player and not his team.

Mike neighbors tried to show the PAC how you schedule to win and test his team and not play too many teams that would not help the team going forward. It appears that strategy was lost in this regard. Oregons team has not improved which is on the coach.

Oregon currently has the #6 SOS by RPI (#10 in Massey). This is hardly "embarrassing."

Washington's nonconference SOS was never that great. In 2015-16 (UW's Final Four year), it was #15. In 2016-17 (Plum and Osahor's senior year), it was #26.

In fact, if you look at the current top 10 in Massey, Oregon is the only team that has already played two other top-10 teams (Mississippi State and Syracuse).