Recruiting Changes for 2015 Prospects

[meyers7]

Nor do people succeed in the same manner many choose to pursue paths that the world does not see as success and yet those individuals may achieve things no one else could dream or see.

Sooooo you are saying it's up to the individual.

Nor do people succeed in the same manner many choose to pursue paths that the world does not see as success and yet those individuals may achieve things no one else could dream or see. They, too, need others to inspire them, to encourage them, and to support them.

I disagree with you about the assumption that many don't believe that individuals really did it by themselves. They buy into a great lie. Nor is every giant of industry a story of moral triumph. Often it is very much the opposite.

Well, I think you are way off base here. I think you are way underselling individual's (or everybody would do it). And I think most people understand there are supports there.

 

[Icebear]

Individual will is, also, a gift. It is forged in relationships and experiences.

 

[Icebear]

Well, I think you are way off base here. I think you are way underselling individual's (or everybody would do it). And I think most people understand there are supports there.

How can you say everyone would do it. Not everyone is motivated to pursue economic wealth or personal power. See Dorothy Day.

See the candidates we have watched this week as we chose a new presiding bishop and wept for one we have known and loved and yet still turned to making history calling our first woman as presiding bishop. Not everyone pursues culture's measures of success.

 

[meyers7]

How can you say everyone would do it. Not everyone is motivated to pursue economic wealth or personal power. See Dorothy Day.

Again, soooooo you are saying it is up to the individual. That's pretty much my point.

 

[meyers7]

Individual will is, also, a gift. It is forged in relationships and experiences.

Not so sure about that. That's more a nature/nurture argument. I would think it's a mixture of both.

 

[Icebear]

Again, soooooo you are saying it is up to the individual. That's pretty much my point.

No, as I said it is both community and individual and more, including health, opportunity, and timing among those.

 

[Icebear]

Not so sure about that. That's more a nature/nurture argument. I would think it's a mixture of both.

And both of those are gift. Both nature and nurture. Even hardship can be gift when it forges and strengthens us. See the life of Rockefeller.

 

[Samanthabrown3]

What an interesting twist to the thread about changes in recruiting.

 

[JRRRJ]

Then why doesn't everyone succeed? They all live in this society.

Stop choosing to read only the words you want to see.

No one has contended that individual vision, focus & effort is not required for achievement. That's a direct result of having free will -- we can choose to not use our talents and opportunities to the fullest, and many do. Only a small minority even try to become exceptional at something. Of those who try, some have failure of will, some of ability, some of health, some of circumstance. Chance of failure lurks at every event and luck does play a part.

But very, very few individuals can be consistently great at anything meaningful without inspiration, support and infrastructure provided by others. "Infrastructure" does not mean the inventions that create tools. It means the people and processes that bring the tools to hand. In this context "tools" includes "technique".

 

[diggerfoot]

Then why doesn't everyone succeed? They all live in this society.

I'm not sure whether this replies reflects miscommunication on my (our) part or misdirection on your part. Here's an analogy to address either.

I've thru-hiked the Appalachian Trail three times. Many would consider this a very self-reliant, self-made individual pursuit that required a lot of time, effort and determination. More people have thru-hiked the Appalachian Trail only once. Others have section-hiked the trail. Still more have hiked isolated, favorite parts. Yet even the effort by people like me is dwarfed by the total effort required by the hundreds of volunteers putting in thousands of hours each year to make sure such a trail exists. I've reaped greater benefits (succeeded more) from the AT than someone who only hiked isolated stretches, which means I've made greater use and require the totality of the sweat equity paid by those hundreds of volunteers. Yes, I've also put in more effort precisely because of what I wanted out of the experience, but that still does not change the fact of my greater dependency on people who maintain a long distance trail over those who choose to only hike a section.

Those thru-hikers who recognize that "there but for the grace of volunteers go I" are more likely to give back to that trail society. Those thru-hikers who bask in their great "individualism" for hiking thousands of miles over challenging terrain and inclement weather are more likely to simply take from that trail society. That is at the crux of this "individualism" argument.

 

[meyers7]

Stop choosing to read only the words you want to see.

Likewise.

No one has contended that individual vision, focus & effort is not required for achievement.

Pretty damn close. You guys certainly want to dismiss it.

Chance of failure lurks at every event

Yes, and that's why an individuals self determination and will is required to persevere.

luck does play a part.

Yes, I said that.

But very, very few individuals can be consistently great at anything meaningful without inspiration, support and infrastructure provided by others.

And I would contend none make it without self motivation and determination. Hence it is much more important. (like I said about 75-80% to 20-25% if I had to put a number on it)

People should be commended for achievement. Not told "you didn't do that". What do you people have against successful people?? That you want to cut them down for their achievements?

 

[meyers7]

I'm not sure whether this replies reflects miscommunication on my (our) part or misdirection on your part. Here's an analogy to address either.

I've thru-hiked the Appalachian Trail three times. Many would consider this a very self-reliant, self-made individual pursuit that required a lot of time, effort and determination. More people have thru-hiked the Appalachian Trail only once. Others have section-hiked the trail. Still more have hiked isolated, favorite parts. Yet even the effort by people like me is dwarfed by the total effort required by the hundreds of volunteers putting in thousands of hours each year to make sure such a trail exists. I've reaped greater benefits (succeeded more) from the AT than someone who only hiked isolated stretches, which means I've made greater use and require the totality of the sweat equity paid by those hundreds of volunteers. Yes, I've also put in more effort precisely because of what I wanted out of the experience, but that still does not change the fact of my greater dependency on people who maintain a long distance trail over those who choose to only hike a section.

Those thru-hikers who recognize that "there but for the grace of volunteers go I" are more likely to give back to that trail society. Those thru-hikers who bask in their great "individualism" for hiking thousands of miles over challenging terrain and inclement weather are more likely to simply take from that trail society. That is at the crux of this "individualism" argument.

And I disagree with your assertions here. Your individualism, your determination, your will has caused you to hike that trail. There are millions upon millions of people who have not done that. They don't have the will, determination (or possibly inclination) to do what you have done. Doesn't matter the sweat and effort put in by the people who built/maintain it (and they themselves do that out of their own individualism and determination.....and yea some I'm sure get paid, but still). All that support is there for everyone, but only those individuals with their own will and determination actually hike that trail.

The "crux" of this argument is you people diminish the achievements of individuals. I'm not sure what you have against success?? or successful people.

You should be proud of your achievement, just as those who built and maintain the trail should be proud of theirs. Sure you can be thankful for their effort, and you should, but don't diminish what you have done.

 

[JRRRJ]

Likewise.


Pretty damn close. You guys certainly want to dismiss it.


Yes, and that's why an individuals self determination and will is required to persevere.


Yes, I said that.


And I would contend none make it without self motivation and determination. Hence it is much more important. (like I said about 75-80% to 20-25% if I had to put a number on it)

People should be commended for achievement. Not told "you didn't do that". What do you people have against successful people?? That you want to cut them down for their achievements?

Last one and done.

No one said "you didn't do that".

Everyone said you have to have determination and put in the effort.

No one ranked how important individual effort is to accomplishment vis-a-vis the gifts we are given by nature & nurture.

But you continue to state, as does the myth, that it's all about the individual, that no one else deserves credit for individual success.

Tell you what: find the most physically talented and mentally motivated 18-year-old you can find. Let him practice tennis against a wall or batting against a pitching machine or shooting hoops solo for 4 years as hard and often as he can. Now put him in the gym, on the court, at the plate against any decent college senior opponent. What do you estimate his success rate will be?

 

[Icebear]

Again, soooooo you are saying it is up to the individual. That's pretty much my point.

c
Less that it is up to the individual than it involves the individual. It involves the individual by necessity since we are speaking of the success of persons and their success. The question is do they succeed alone and they do not.

 

[meyers7]

No one said "you didn't do that".

Certainly implied it.

No one ranked how important individual effort is to accomplishment vis-a-vis the gifts we are given by nature & nurture.

I did.

But you continue to state, as does the myth, that it's all about the individual.

No actually I didn't, I even ranked it (75-80%, for those with math problems, that's not all). Back to your, "Stop choosing to read only the words you want to see." (you really had the audacity to say that???)

Tell you what: find the most physically talented and mentally motivated 18-year-old you can find. Let him practice tennis against a wall or batting against a pitching machine or shooting hoops solo for 4 years as hard and often as he can. Now put him in the gym, on the court, at the plate against any decent college senior opponent. What do you estimate his success rate will be?

Well that would be stupid. Why would a motivated person do that? They wouldn't.

But none the less will go with your little example here. I'll take that person you described and put him/her up against your physically talented but unmotivated 18 year old. We'll give your 18 y/o the best coaches and facilities and nutrition available. However being unmotivated, he/she sits on his/her butt for 4 years. Then we'll put them against each other and compare. Yea, I wonder who will be more successful. I estimate my 22 y/o 's success rate will be much, much greater than yours. Wanna make a bet on this????? hmmmm???? Yea, didn't think so.


I apologize for any shots that I took at you there, when I get going......well you know. They don't call me Smarty Pants for nuthin'.

 

[diggerfoot]

And I disagree with your assertions here. Your individualism, your determination, your will has caused you to hike that trail. There are millions upon millions of people who have not done that. They don't have the will, determination (or possibly inclination) to do what you have done. Doesn't matter the sweat and effort put in by the people who built/maintain it (and they themselves do that out of their own individualism and determination.....and yea some I'm sure get paid, but still). All that support is there for everyone, but only those individuals with their own will and determination actually hike that trail.

The "crux" of this argument is you people diminish the achievements of individuals. I'm not sure what you have against success?? or successful people.

You should be proud of your achievement, just as those who built and maintain the trail should be proud of theirs. Sure you can be thankful for their effort, and you should, but don't diminish what you have done.

Hmmm. I'm sure it's just semantics but I think your reply here particularly strange. I don't see how in any shape or form I "diminish" what I've done by acknowledging that other people made it possible. I don't even see how you can connect those two dots, unless one is insecure about acknowledging the contributions of others to make something possible. Also, can you please elaborate on how you interpreted what I wrote here as criticizing success? To clarify, I meant to criticize taking success for granted. There's a pretty clear distinction between the two and I thought I accurately conveyed the latter.

As for pride, everyone has their own journeys to make. To me, it's not so much whether a journey is a source of pride so much as a source of contentment, but that's a different topic.

 

[meyers7]

Hmmm. I'm sure it's just semantics but I think your reply here particularly strange. I don't see how in any shape or form I "diminish" what I've done by acknowledging that other people made it possible.

You don't. You diminish what you accomplished by not acknowledging it. Probably just semantics.

I don't even see how you can connect those two dots, unless one is insecure about acknowledging the contributions of others to make something possible.

It's not that at all. It is rather one being insecure about one's only accomplishments. One should give credit where credit is due. But realize that 75-80% of that credit is on the individual.

Also, can you please elaborate on how you interpreted what I wrote here as criticizing success?

You don't give enough credit to the individual who actually accomplished something. Who took the initiative to go out and take advantage of the support provided.

To clarify, I meant to criticize taking success for granted.

The only ones I've seen take success for granted are those who are given everything. Those who have self determination and the will to succeed (pull themselves up by their bootstraps, the old American way, yada, yada, yada) know how hard they have worked to attain their success. They don't take success for granted.

 

[diggerfoot]

You don't. You diminish what you accomplished by not acknowledging it. Probably just semantics.


It's not that at all. It is rather one being insecure about one's only accomplishments. One should give credit where credit is due. But realize that 75-80% of that credit is on the individual.


You don't give enough credit to the individual who actually accomplished something. Who took the initiative to go out and take advantage of the support provided.


The only ones I've seen take success for granted are those who are given everything. Those who have self determination and the will to succeed (pull themselves up by their bootstraps, the old American way, yada, yada, yada) know how hard they have worked to attain their success. They don't take success for granted.

Individualism for me is truly doing something on your own. A 2,000 mile bushwhack through the north woods on a route entirely of my choosing is individualism. No one else has a hand in making that possible. Hiking a route established by others on a well-groomed trail is not, nor is it anywhere near as hard as the 2,000 mile bushwhack, the true feat of individualism. In either case I should get 100% of the credit, given your formula, for simply succeeding at the task. When considering what made the different tasks even possible the credit remains 100% for the bushwhack, much less for the AT.

 

[meyers7]

Individualism for me is truly doing something on your own. A 2,000 mile bushwhack through the north woods on a route entirely of my choosing is individualism. No one else has a hand in making that possible. Hiking a route established by others on a well-groomed trail is not, nor is it anywhere near as hard as the 2,000 mile bushwhack, the true feat of individualism. In either case I should get 100% of the credit, given your formula, for simply succeeding at the task. When considering what made the different tasks even possible the credit remains 100% for the bushwhack, much less for the AT.

Ah but your fellow "anti-individualists" () in this thread would argue "what about the maker of your boots, what about the maker of your backpack, what about the maker of your clothes, who made your compass, etc."

Agreed, your not as far gone as they are in their anti individualism.

My 75-80% was a general number for individualism vs supportism. Not really meant to be measurable between a groomed trail and a bushwhack trail.

 

[Icebear]

Not even close, Meyers. No one is speaking of manufacturers. We're speaking of mentors and those who inspire, equip, and enable others to new heights.