OT: Thursday at 9 a.m., the Freeh Report is available. . .

[Icebear]

Keep the Students Ignorant - link

Why would they change the channel to prevent people from watching the news conference?

Keep the Students Ignorant - link

Maybe they were afraid of the response of the students to each other between those who have found themselves on opposite sides of the conflict.

Why would they change the channel to prevent people from watching the news conference?

 

[Vowelguy]

Speedoo, JS, can speak for himself but I think the connection is more to the athletic director and other administrative personnel than the football program per se.

If Sandusky were the assistant field hockey coach, the university's actions would've been MUCH different.
It is football, period.

 

[JS]

Loss of institutional control? And are you really arguing that this had nothing to do with football?

Institutional control pertains to safeguards and monitoring against rules violations in athletics programs.

I'm not arguing this had "nothing to do with football." Are you really arguing that because it had "something to do with football" the NCAA is empowered to act?

This had plenty to do with protecting reputations -- of the school, of the the football program and even, it seems, of Sandusky. But nothing to do with actionable rules violations or a "culture in and around the football program" -- whatever that means in a vacuum unrelated to the conduct of intercollegiate athletics according to agreed rules.

Very important people lost their jobs over this. Punishment for criminal activities, if proved, will be imposed. Civil liabilities (probably substantial) will be satisfied. Hopefully, and most importantly, institutions will take stricter note of the reporting laws, and those laws may be strengthened.

NCAA sanctions against the PSU football program won't happen, IMO, nor should they.

 

[Icebear]

If Sandusky were the assistant field hockey coach, the university's actions would've been MUCH different.
It is football, period.

It was money and not just revenues and reputations, not the sport and/or athletes and how it was conducted on practice fields and playing fields.

 

[UConnCat]

I've never been able to understand how McQuery justified not intervening in the shower rape he witnessed...has anyone even posed the question to him?

And to this day, the identity of the young boy who was assaulted in the shower that evening remains unknown to any of the participants in this tragic mess, other than Sandusky of course.

 

[Vowelguy]

Are you really arguing that because it had "something to do with football" the NCAA is empowered to act?

(1) Not "something" to do with football. It had _everything_ to do with football.
(2) All I said was that Brennan raised an interesting question about why SMU was given the death penalty, and Penn St wont be.

 

[Icebear]

PSU trustees statement live

 

[JS]

(1) Not "something" to do with football. It had _everything_ to do with football.
(2) All I said was that Brennan raised an interesting question about why SMU was given the death penalty, and Penn St wont be.

You can argue that football -- and JoePa particularly if you believe as I do -- wielded too much clout. And you can argue it's because of the money. Successful big-time football brings it in directly, and indirectly through the bonding effect on alumni.

But these aren't factors the NCAA can "fix." The organization is part and parcel of that whole shebang, and isn't there to lessen football's influence. If people use that influence in misguided ways, NCAA can't fix that either unless it pertains to breaking the rules.

 

[Icebear]

(1) Not "something" to do with football. It had _everything_ to do with football.
(2) All I said was that Brennan raised an interesting question about why SMU was given the death penalty, and Penn St wont be.

You might as well say it had everything to do with sports money and shutdown UConn basketball, too, because money makes everything suspect.

 

[speedoo]

If Sandusky were the assistant field hockey coach, the university's actions would've been MUCH different.
It is football, period.

Exactly. And actions would also have been different if Sandusky had been an assistant in any other program except football.

Why? Because Paterno was the football coach, and he was everything at PSU.

 

[Kibitzer]

I do not completely disagree with JS. It will be a long reach for the NCAA to punish PSU football under the broad "lack of institutional control" justification.

But I believe that they will seize on that and use it to "do something."

Whatever the NCAA does (and it won't be a death penalty), PSU will digest it like bad tasting medicine rather than tarnish its image still more by appearing to be anything but contrite and remorseful in the eyes of the general public.

I do not rule out a bit of discreet plea bargaining between the NCAA and PSU.

 

[SubbaBub]

Exactly. And actions would also have been different if Sandusky had been an assistant in any other program except football.

Why? Because Paterno was the football coach, and he was everything at PSU.

That's like saying Calhoun is everything at UConn. While a very influential larger than life public face of the university, hardly the same as running the place.

Reading only the summary of findings and the timeline (hey I got a job) and perhaps the full report contradicts what Im about to say but, I thought a few things after I read it. While there was a clear conspiracy to cover this up, the 1998 investigation seemed to go as one might expect for a high profile person except that it was kept mostly off the books then buried when the investigation came up short. MISTAKE #1 that sets this whole thing in motion.

The report is not consistent with the suspicion the JS was forced out because of the incident. This gives a very small amount of space for those involved to move on from there, but if they went by the book they wouldn't have been in a position to hang themselves in 2001 incident.

If we try to understand what would make a person turn a blind eye to such horror, t is important to remember the climate in 2001. The football program was in the middle of a multi year slump, there were calls for Paterno to retire. Any scandal would have ended his career and since there was a cover up of the 1998 incident all four would have been tossed. To say this was solely about protecting FB is cliche. They were protecting themselves. Maybe Joe survives it, but the other three? No freaking way.

It's also important to remember that this is a University trying to separate itself from these events. The four administration principles are now fired, dead, or awaiting trial. From the portion I read, Paterno seems clearly in the loop and was consulted but more on periphery on the discussions. The only link ID'd in the summary is an email from Curley intimating that Paterno squashed it, but I see enough other support for this. There is a lot to be gained by dumping this on the four men. I don't believe that the Univ didn't get some influence. I think some things were left out that didn't involve the university.

At the end of the day I see a typical scenario of people cutting corners on the first incident and getting caught trying to CYA on the second surrounded by a barrel full of selfish a unethical decisions slowly and painfully played out over a decade. All in all, a very sad and sorry tale.

Sent from my MB860 using Tapatalk 2

 

[EricLA]

The report said that Paterno, along with officials Tim Curley, Gary Schultz, and former president Graham Spanier, "repeatedly concealed critical facts relating to Sandusky's child abuse from the authorities," and it blamed those four men for failing to stop Sandusky and protect other chidlren from his harm.

The four officials showed a "striking lack of empathy" for the victims of Sandusky's abuse and empowered the former assitant coach to continue abusing, the report said.

I'm sure many smarter people than i can read the report, summarize it, or whatever, but this quote above is from ABC news - not that it's the final word, but if that's the gist of the report, i'm not sure how the NCAA CAN ignore it. They may not have rules in place to deal with this, but if that's the finding, certainly punitive action towards PSU's football program is in order. Let PSU sue the NCAA if they don't like the punishment.

I would also think the government would bring charges against those involved - criminal and/or civil (or perhaps civil charges would have to come from the victims?). either way, it's a huge mess and regardless of the rules in place, I don't see how the NCAA can let this slide.

 

[Icebear]

The government has already brought its charges against Sandusky who was convicted and Tim Curley and Gary Schultz who await trial. The grand jury brought these charges in November. No charges were brought against JoePA or Mike McQueary. Civil suits are in the process of being filed against these individuals and the University, as well as, 2nd Mile.

 

[Vowelguy]

You might as well say it had everything to do with sports money and shutdown UConn basketball, too, because money makes everything suspect.

That of course is a ludicrous comparison.

It's not all sports. It's not all schools. It definitely was Penn St football.

Anyone arguing this was just a few bad apples is ignorant. It was the President and the AD (et al). They placed the FB team above the law because they believed that was their job. They didn't come to that conclusion on their own -- they did that because that's what the school, the alumni, the trustees, and the community wanted, if not demanded. This was a systemic problem. Penn St can't just pay the lawsuits and institute new child protections. It needs to change a culture that valued FB above all else.

 

[Icebear]

That of course is a ludicrous comparison.

It's not all sports. It's not all schools. It definitely was Penn St football.

Anyone arguing this was just a few bad apples is ignorant. It was the President and the AD (et al). They placed the FB team above the law because they believed that was their job. They didn't come to that conclusion on their own -- they did that because that's what the school, the alumni, the trustees, and the community wanted, if not demanded. This was a systemic problem. Penn St can't just pay the lawsuits and institute new child protections. It needs to change a culture that valued FB above all else.

If what you suggest is true the university and the community would not have moved as swiftly once it was known as they have. Sandusky was convicted by a jury with 9 people with ties to PSU in the county seat of the community where the school is found. It was by all accounts of Freeh's report that the community was manipulated by less than a handful of persons. It is systemic in that these few people used their key positions to forward personal goals. It is systemic in a limited sense. It is, also, systemic in the sense that proper training regarding Clery responsibilities were not taught broadly through the structure by HR. It is not systemic in a manner meaning people throughout the university were all conspiring to suppress information about the events.

Freeh's report states that no evidence was found for a number of assertions previously made here and in other places. No evidence was uncovered that Sandusky's retirement was in anyway connected to knowledge of his abuse of kids. The events in 1998 occurred after that decision had been made. The report establishes a number of things that argue against your assertions as well as for a willingness to deal straight on with the problem in the present. None of it is as simplistic as you or Christine Brennan paint it. Some were worried about sullying the program's reputation, some about finances, some about liabilities of taking false steps and false accusations, some about about their jobs, the great crime is that among those who knew no one cared about simply protecting the kids. Freeh's material is detailed and thorough and lays all these variances and subtleties out.

Those kids are probably safer today in State College than anywhere else in the country.

 

[Vowelguy]

If what you suggest is true the university and the community would not have moved as swiftly once it was known as they have.

Deny deny deny.
Exactly Penn St's problem.

 

[OneTrickPony]

If what you suggest is true the university and the community would not have moved as swiftly once it was known as they have. Sandusky was convicted by a jury with 9 people with ties to PSU in the county seat of the community where the school is found. It was by all accounts of Freeh's report that the community was manipulated by less than a handful of persons. Freeh's report states that no evidence was found for a number of assertions previously made here and in other places. No evidence was uncovered that Sandusky's retirement was in anyway connected to knowledge of his abuse of kids. The events in 1998 occurred after that decision had been made. The report establishes a number of things that argue against your assertions as well as for a willingness to deal straight on with the problem in the present. None of it is as simplistic as you or Christine Brennan paint it. Some were worried about sullying the program's reputation, some about finances, some about liabilities of taking false steps and false accusations, some about about their jobs, the great crime is that among those who knew no one cared about simply protecting the kids. Those kids are probably safer today in State College than anywhere else in the country.

Have to agree with Icebear...just as the high school in Littleton, CO now has the best security in the country...the pendulum will swing a long way at Penn State. It's hard to make a case for punishing the students and the community...

The Freeh Report and the Trustees response to it have been a breath of fresh air. Now if they can just keep Paterno's son off the air, the healing can begin...

 

[Icebear]

Deny deny deny.
Exactly Penn St's problem.

Denying nothing, but getting the response right and aimed at the right problems is the only way there will be success.

 

[UCONNfan1]

That is absolutely not the point. PSU should be punished and punished severely. Anything less is a joke and a slap in the face to the entire collegiate sporting program. I get that PSU alums want this to be over as fast as possible and for the world to look the other way, but the UCONN men were banned from the post season for having too low an APR (ie. grades). As most on the men's board agree, a 5 year ban from football sounds about right.

Frankly I'm surprised anyone is arguing to go easy on PSU, regardless of whether rules are in place per NCAA bylaws to cover this or not. It was an aggregious miscarriage of ethics, trust, law, etc. by Paterno, the head of the athletics department, and the university officials. To try to sweep this under the rug and say "the criminal and civil cases will take care of it" doesn't seem to be a right answer...

This predator abused these kids and the people in charge looked the other way and allowed the abuse to continue. There should be a huge public outcry for the University to face the stiffest penalties the NCAA thinks it can get away with.

If the situation were reversed and it were to come out that some female hoops coach were molesting and abusing players, young girls, etc etc. and the head hoops coach looked the other way as did all the administration officials, people would be calling for the permanent disbanning of that WHoops program.

The NCAA has much more than a "legal obligation" based on what "rules" they currently have in place.

 

[Icebear]

That is absolutely not the point. PSU should be punished and punished severely. Anything less is a joke and a slap in the face to the entire collegiate sporting program. I get that PSU alums want this to be over as fast as possible and for the world to look the other way, but the UCONN men were banned from the post season for having too low an APR (ie. grades). As most on the men's board agree, a 5 year ban from football sounds about right.

Frankly I'm surprised anyone is arguing to go easy on PSU, regardless of whether rules are in place per NCAA bylaws to cover this or not. It was an aggregious miscarriage of ethics, trust, law, etc. by Paterno, the head of the athletics department, and the university officials. To try to sweep this under the rug and say "the criminal and civil cases will take care of it" doesn't seem to be a right answer...

This predator abused these kids and the people in charge looked the other way and allowed the abuse to continue. There should be a huge public outcry for the University to face the stiffest penalties the NCAA thinks it can get away with.

If the situation were reversed and it were to come out that some female hoops coach were molesting and abusing players, young girls, etc etc. and the head hoops coach looked the other way as did all the administration officials, people would be calling for the permanent disbanning of that WHoops program.

The NCAA has much more than a "legal obligation" based on what "rules" they currently have in place.

No one is suggesting going easy on PSU. Least of all me. What I am suggesting is that the crimes were not committed by the whole university or the whole community. Freeh's report makes that very clear. Charges have been brought against three and the university will suffer huge losses financially in civil courts and in prestige.

Punishment must be aimed at the right people and done in the right manner if the overarching problem is to be corrected. 40,000 students had nothing to do with it, the vast majority of employees had no part in covering up anything or even awareness of anything, the surrounding community filled with people who have been even more abhorred than anywhere else in the country because it was their kids at risk. All can be impacted by reckless desires to take a Sodom and Gommorah approach to punishment. Even God offered to spare those cities for ten righteous people let alone tens of thousands.

The right goal beyond any civil cases and criminal charges is to make sure a system of training is in place and clear policies with clear consequences are in place to make sure these events can never take place again. Simply punishing does next to nothing to secure the safety of kids in the future. That is the right goal, protecting the kids. The NCAA is the last group that is qualified to deal with any of those things. Leave it to them to manage athletics and to the courts and government to review and ensure that the cancer at PSU has been properly been excised and healthy systems have been put in place.

 

[KnightBridgeAZ]

No one is suggesting going easy on PSU. Least of all me. What I am suggesting is that the crimes were not committed by the whole university or the whole community. Freeh's report makes that very clear. Charges have been brought against three and the university will suffer huge losses financially in civil courts and in prestige.

Punishment must be aimed at the right people and done in the right manner if the overarching problem is to be corrected. 40,000 students had nothing to do with it, the vast majority of employees had no part in covering up anything or even awareness of anything, the surrounding community filled with people who have been even more abhorred than anywhere else in the country because it was their kids at risk. All can be impacted by reckless desires to take a Sodom and Gommorah approach to punishment. Even God offered to spare those cities for ten righteous people let alone tens of thousands.

The right goal beyond any civil cases and criminal charges is to make sure a system of training is in place and clear policies with clear consequences are in place to make sure these events can never take place again. Simply punishing does next to nothing to secure the safety of kids in the future. That is the right goal, protecting the kids. The NCAA is the last group that is qualified to deal with any of those things. Leave it to them to manage athletics and to the courts and government to review and ensure that the cancer at PSU has been properly been excised and healthy systems have been put in place.

Excellent post, as almost always.

One of the issues in society today is the black / white, punish "and make it hurt" approach to everything.

I read the whole report. Clearly, reforms are already underway. There is no question that the report shows a situation that snowballed from a feeble first investigation to on-going denial in every sense of the word. If you could get into these folks heads, I almost think you would have found that they just didn't quite believe "Jerry" was such a bad guy as he was.

While the football program was clearly at fault for being "above the law" it is equally clear that there was a lack of institutional control (to use the phrase) over the President's office and what these VIP's did. The trustees were never informed and never raised questions either. Clear abuse of power contributing to the rest of the horror.

 

[uconnfan68]

Fine to make a broad point, that two awful things happened, but the awful things are apples and oranges.

What she doesn't seem to understand is that, for the NCAA to act, as she specifically advocates, there has to have been a violation of its rules. They can't just say, "These four guys acted disgracefully and allowed bad things to happen, so we're killing the football program." There has to be something more than a remote connection (reputation-protecting, at most) between what they did or failed to do and the way the school conducted its intercollegiate athletics programs.

I agree with Wbbfan1 on this. Penn State and the accused individuals (if found guilty) will take their lumps in the civil and criminal courts. The NCAA has no apparent reason to be involved.

The NCAA has been known to make rules up after the fact, and apply them whimsically. The NCAA also knows a very large % of the nations grads are PSU grads. No way they get involved. Now if Sandusky made a few extra phone calls...

 

[cardfan]

You can read the entire Freeh report here. There is an executive summary with a timeline that is pretty damning of Paterno.

There is an old saying in the military that it takes justy one "aw " to erase a career full of "atta boys." It applies to Paterno. I think he will rightfully be remembered as the guy that chose to allow a pederast to continue molesting young boys followed by a "didn't he win some football games?" Just what he was trying to avoid.

As for Brennan she has her head up her tookus as usual. Essentially she is condemning an athletic program based on the behavior of individuals that had nothing to do with athletics. While their motives were certainly protection of the program, it was the individuals involved that protected Sandusky and they alone should pay the price.

I agree the individuals were responsible, but they were protecting the football program more than Sandusky.

 

[Icebear]

Excellent post, as almost always.

One of the issues in society today is the black / white, punish "and make it hurt" approach to everything.

I read the whole report. Clearly, reforms are already underway. There is no question that the report shows a situation that snowballed from a feeble first investigation to on-going denial in every sense of the word. If you could get into these folks heads, I almost think you would have found that they just didn't quite believe "Jerry" was such a bad guy as he was.

While the football program was clearly at fault for being "above the law" it is equally clear that there was a lack of institutional control (to use the phrase) over the President's office and what these VIP's did. The trustees were never informed and never raised questions either. Clear abuse of power contributing to the rest of the horror.

I think you are very right about a progression, one of "getting it right" starting with disbelief that "Jerry couldn't." That progression started with the first events reported in the town investigation of a charitable legend and which was inconceivable and led to the fear of false accusations and a investigation that never quite had enough to satisfy those who could take action and ruin a "good" person's reputation to eventually "getting it right" and protecting the university. Along the way those involved were often speaking past each other with different agendas. The situation was rather like one couples facing relational problems find themselves in when a counselor works to make sure they are using language in the same way and truly hearing each other. In the end "getting it right" became about protecting the department and the golden goose whether the goose knew it or not. Sadly "getting it right" never involved "getting it right" for the victims and the broader community at risk. 430 interviews and 3.5 million emails have shed tremendous insight into the greater situation, past, present, and hopefully a far better directed future.

One additional insight that popped into my realization today these events all began within the decade following the chaos of the McMartin Preschool trials which resulted in a horrendously complex mess of accusations involving occult practices, implanted memories, and charges made, charges dropped, and almost every other inconceivable possibility. It was the first situation of its type to completely dominate the national media involving child abuse. Getting it right may have seemed a reasonable start but it led down a path with horrendous consequences on that well paved highway to hell.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/ra_mcmar.htm/

http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/criminal_mind/psychology/mcmartin_daycare/1.html