OT: Boneyard "Other Football" World Cup Thread

[Carl Spackler]

Well then I must be high. Beckerman is without question the better offensive player. His negative passes are to maintain control of possession. Every good central player does that, including Bradley. If you want a great example of a world class player that often uses negative passes to maintain control prior to springing the attack, watch a lot of film of Andrea Pirlo. He's the master of the negative pass, followed by a laserbeam releasing ball to a forward.

My issue with Jones, as Carl alluded to, is the fact that he hits a lot of long balls. In and of itself, there's nothing wrong with that. However, Jones RARELY connects with his targets on them! It essentially ends up being a turnover of possession. It drives me batty, and I find myself gritting my teeth whenever he does it, which is often. There's no doubt he's a much better defender than Beckerman, but it is brutal to watch him with the ball on his feet.

As for fitness level, I share your concerns! Maybe the friendlies will get him into better shape...

Interesting, I actually didn't mind the long ball misses, but that's my perspective I guess. It seemed like good ideas, when they missed, I was more upset with the players up front that didn't get to the ball, or get control. There were a few that my eye thought could have been handled. If they're going to use that kind of long air ball attack and control, you'd hope that they practice it more and get more accurate with it. Don't know if you saw my edit comment either before, but there was one play I recall where Bradley tried to make the same kind of long, cross field pass , but it was a roller on the ground and not strong enough and nearly ended up in free run for the other team at the goal - a Ronaldo, or a German striker gets that ball and it's trouble.

 

[EdgewoodNHV]

Underwhelming.

http://www.mlssoccer.com/worldcup/2...rks-across-board-underwhelming-win-over-azerb


Coach Jurgen Klinsmann (5) - Right off the top, this space says the 4-4-2 diamond formation is ill-advised. And in this match, it was poorly spaced for much of the night, a factor in the team waiting so long for the icebreaker despite 70 percent of possession. We cannot really learn much about the back from a home friendly against such a limited opponent, but one thing seems clear about the attack. If this is all the offensive aggressiveness the team will show in the run of play against Azerbaijan, there may well be a systematic problem where there wasn't one last year.

You realize ratings are just a totally arbitrary opinion of a single writer, right?

 

[SubbaBub]

The system was hurt by Dempsey's absence. As well as wondo was able to find space, he is a cherry picker in the purest sense. Gets on the end of passes, but does much less build up work. It's all about bradley. He must control the attack from his advanced midfield spot.

In this regard he and jones worked together about as well as I've seen them. Jones would move forward then hand it off to bradley. Not overly complex, but clearly it is something they intended to work on.

 

[ZooCougar]

I liked the combination up top that I saw late last night, but I am not going to buy into it because it was Azerbaijan.

Formations in soccer have always fascinated me because in soccer it seems like you want to get the combinations of players right so that you have the right chemistry to do the things you need to do. But at the same time the formation can dictate which combinations you use and what roles certain players play.

Some of the best soccer nations, Italy, Germany and Brazil for example all have had trademark methods of playing the game. Some nations play it "beautifully" deliberately moving the ball up the field almost slowly but with absolute control, while others place greater emphasis on defense and creating opportunities off of set pieces. This all comes from being brought up in a system in a given nation that has embraced that style. For example, the Brazilians have a method where they force they youngsters to play on smaller fields with less players in order to give each player more touches and more oppurtunity to learn. In essence they get more "reps".

My question is this: Given the current state of US Soccer, are we at a disadvantage because we have so many players with more than one passport, who have come up in more than one system? I would always defer to putting the most talented team on the field as possible, but it seems to me that we are kind of in a transitional period. Or maybe I am just overthinking it.

 

[Carl Spackler]

Underwhelming.

http://www.mlssoccer.com/worldcup/2...rks-across-board-underwhelming-win-over-azerb


Coach Jurgen Klinsmann (5) - Right off the top, this space says the 4-4-2 diamond formation is ill-advised. And in this match, it was poorly spaced for much of the night, a factor in the team waiting so long for the icebreaker despite 70 percent of possession. We cannot really learn much about the back from a home friendly against such a limited opponent, but one thing seems clear about the attack. If this is all the offensive aggressiveness the team will show in the run of play against Azerbaijan, there may well be a systematic problem where there wasn't one last year.

Here's an SAT question:

MLS supporters will be to Jurgen Klinsmann regarding Landon Donovan as:

a. Bundesliga supporters to Joachem Low regarding Michael Ballack
b. Japanese citizens to Harry S. Truman regarding Enola Gay.
c. CT high school football coaches to Warde Manuel regarding Paul Pasqualoni
d. all of the above.
e. a & c only.

 

[bobbygt]

In spite of a bad opponent here's what I liked and didn't like.

The back 4 of Johnson Cameron Besler Beasley is the way to go. I don't need to see anything more. Yedlin and Chandler were too often out of position and Gonzales just can't play soccer. Besler had a few out of character giveaways. Can't do that in Brazil.

Zusi is going to be the US star, and we have no backup at the right side spot, because though I don't like him there Bedoya has to be on the left over Davis. He's horrible, just as slow and soft on the ball as I thought. Looks totally out of place.

I am still trying to figure out how Beasley is on this team, not to mention the starting left back. I loved Beasley when he first arrived many moons ago, but he is not a World Cup level defender. He wins no balls in the air and frequently mistimes them, he doesn't have the same speed as he used to, and he gets pushed off the ball too easily.

I will also say that I watched Zusi pretty closely last night and besides his set pieces, he does very little: his passes, which are normally a strength are not very precise during the run of play, plus he doesn't know how to attack with numbers. Maybe I'm completely wrong about him, but I was not impressed. He seems like a slight upgrade to Feilhaber.

 

[Carl Spackler]

I liked the combination up top that I saw late last night, but I am not going to buy into it because it was Azerbaijan.

Formations in soccer have always fascinated me because in soccer it seems like you want to get the combinations of players right so that you have the right chemistry to do the things you need to do. But at the same time the formation can dictate which combinations you use and what roles certain players play.

Some of the best soccer nations, Italy, Germany and Brazil for example all have had trademark methods of playing the game. Some nations play it "beautifully" deliberately moving the ball up the field almost slowly but with absolute control, while others place greater emphasis on defense and creating opportunities off of set pieces. This all comes from being brought up in a system in a given nation that has embraced that style. For example, the Brazilians have a method where they force they youngsters to play on smaller fields with less players in order to give each player more touches and more oppurtunity to learn. In essence they get more "reps".

My question is this: Given the current state of US Soccer, are we at a disadvantage because we have so many players with more than one passport, who have come up in more than one system? I would always defer to putting the most talented team on the field as possible, but it seems to me that we are kind of in a transitional period. Or maybe I am just overthinking it.

I'll take a stab at answering that. I've actually met and spoken with Michael Ballack a few times. I asked him what he thought of Klinsmann and USA soccer. Long story short, he made it clear that he thinks the one real weakness that U.S.A. has is with tight spaces and ball control. We don't develop players from the youngest of ages to have the ball control in small spaces personally and in passing that the other countries you mention that are regularly in the World Cup title conversations. It made a whole lot of sense watching USA soccer afterwards. You watch world class players and they can be in the tightest of spaces, being defended, and have complete control of the ball both dribbling and making passes. It's amazing to watch them make moves and passes in small space. USA players don't have it. So, in answer, I think that we need the strategy of maintaining an open field, and use strengths like speed and long passes and develop tactics that will open up the field for USA players to be competitive on the world stage. If we need to go "small" for lack of a better word in my soccer vocab, having recruited the number of dual citizenship players that have grown up playing overseas - is probably a help if we do end up in situations where players are 1-1 or in small group play in small space. Make sense? Or am I talking out my ? seriously - wondering if it makes sense.

 

[whaler11]

I'll take a stab at answering that. I've actually met and spoken with Michael Ballack a few times. I asked him what he thought of Klinsmann and USA soccer. Long story short, he made it clear that he thinks the one real weakness that U.S.A. has is with tight spaces and ball control. We don't develop players from the youngest of ages to have the ball control in small spaces personally and in passing that the other countries you mention that are regularly in the World Cup title conversations. It made a whole lot of sense watching USA soccer afterwards. You watch world class players and they can be in the tightest of spaces, being defended, and have complete control of the ball both dribbling and making passes. It's amazing to watch them make moves and passes in small space. USA players don't have it. So, in answer, I think that we need the strategy of maintaining an open field, and use strengths like speed and long passes and develop tactics that will open up the field for USA players to be competitive on the world stage. If we need to go "small" for lack of a better word in my soccer vocab, having recruited the number of dual citizenship players that have grown up playing overseas - is probably a help if we do end up in situations where players are 1-1 or in small group play in small space. Make sense? Or am I talking out my ? seriously - wondering if it makes sense.

It makes sense me so the answer to both questions is probably yes.

I fell asleep at halftime but I was pretty underwhelmed. I don't put much stock in it though, it's like trying to figure out if you have a good football team based on your FCS game.

 

[Carl Spackler]

It makes sense me so the answer to both questions is probably yes.

I fell asleep at halftime but I was pretty underwhelmed. I don't put much stock in it though, it's like trying to figure out if you have a good football team based on your FCS game.

Ha! We all had a good look at our football team last season based on our FCS game. We got beat up by Towson. So I guess your point is that all that can be determined realistically is that we don't have a bad USA national soccer team.

 

[whaler11]

Ha! We all had a good look at our football team last season based on our FCS game. We got beat up by Towson. So I guess your point is that all that can be determined realistically is that we don't have a bad USA national soccer team.

Well if they had lost it might be time to push the panic button.

But I was talking about how FBS teams win those games 95% of the time and trying to tease out how the season goes from there is usually pointless.

 

[Carl Spackler]

Well if they had lost it might be time to push the panic button.

But I was talking about how FBS teams win those games 95% of the time and trying to tease out how the season goes from there is usually pointless.

I get it, and I shouldn't be surprised by your attitude LOL.

I disagree though, we're talking about a warm up game for World Cup finals group stage play scheduled to start 20 days from now. I think there is a lot to be discussed that is not pointless.

 

[whaler11]

I get it, and I shouldn't be surprised by your attitude LOL.

I disagree though, we're talking about a warm up game for World Cup finals group stage play scheduled to start 20 days from now. I think there is a lot to be discussed that is not pointless.

There is plenty to discuss, I'm just not going to sweat a friendly against a third rate team that had no desire to compete.

 

[SubbaBub]

I'll take a stab at answering that. I've actually met and spoken with Michael Ballack a few times. I asked him what he thought of Klinsmann and USA soccer. Long story short, he made it clear that he thinks the one real weakness that U.S.A. has is with tight spaces and ball control. We don't develop players from the youngest of ages to have the ball control in small spaces personally and in passing that the other countries you mention that are regularly in the World Cup title conversations. It made a whole lot of sense watching USA soccer afterwards. You watch world class players and they can be in the tightest of spaces, being defended, and have complete control of the ball both dribbling and making passes. It's amazing to watch them make moves and passes in small space. USA players don't have it. So, in answer, I think that we need the strategy of maintaining an open field, and use strengths like speed and long passes and develop tactics that will open up the field for USA players to be competitive on the world stage. If we need to go "small" for lack of a better word in my soccer vocab, having recruited the number of dual citizenship players that have grown up playing overseas - is probably a help if we do end up in situations where players are 1-1 or in small group play in small space. Make sense? Or am I talking out my ? seriously - wondering if it makes sense.

Johnson, Dempsey, Johannsson, and Bradley are our tight space guys. An upgrade from past teams. The US game was always blast forward, cross from out wide, hope to score off the scrum or a set piece.

Zusi is fron this mold. I thought he was very tidy on the ball and of defense. He isn't beating anyone one v one but that's not his role. His job is to stay wide.

The dual nationals simply have more developed technical skills on average. That's why they are here. To come up the way Clint did is very difficult.

Even Beasley came up through the 2010 academy program. He is at LB because he is agile enough to stay with his marker and fast enough to recover. He can also push forward. Comparing him to Chandler last night, he was more disciplined if offering a tad less on the attack. The LB's first job is to not get beat or break the offside trap line. To do so would expose the CB'S.

 

[Carl Spackler]

Johnson, Dempsey, Johannsson, and Bradley are our tight space guys. An upgrade from past teams. The US game was always blast forward, cross from out wide, hope to score off the scrum or a set piece.

Zusi is fron this mold. I thought he was very tidy on the ball and of defense. He isn't beating anyone one v one but that's not his role. His job is to stay wide.

The dual nationals simply have more developed technical skills on average. That's why they are here. To come up the way Clint did is very difficult.

Even Beasley came up through the 2010 academy program. He is at LB because he is agile enough to stay with his marker and fast enough to recover. He can also push forward. Comparing him to Chandler last night, he was more disciplined if offering a tad less on the attack. The LB's first job is to not get beat or break the offside trap line. To do so would expose the CB'S.

I don't know what a lot that means. What I do know is that one of the conditions Klinsmann wanted as the head coach of the USA program, was control over the whole thing. He was approached a few years earlier about heading the program than when he actually started I think 2 years ago now he started? But turned it down, because he wasn't going to be given the kind of control over the entire system that he wanted - and eventually got. it's my understanding that he's been working on developing a consistent approach standards to soccer academies for youth that are similar to what exists in other countries, and the players that will be developed to have the kind of "small space" ball control that exists overseas, are probably in the 10-12 year old range right now. The more those academies develop and the more players they pump out, the better that MLS soccer will become, and the greater chance we will have of developing world class players without having to go overseas. Until then though, bringing in the players that have developed from a young age in other countries seems to be the way Klinsmann is going to go.

I also know that the young players out there, that I watched last night, and the dual citizen players, looked very fast, and seemed to be pretty good.

The one thing that really struck me in my conversations with some soccer people, is that there is a consensus that the only thing really holding the USA back from being a world class dominant soccer power is not fan perception or money, or popularity or anything like that, but simply the lack of structure to find and develop players from the earliest ages up through age 18-25 nationwide. A country with the population, and resources and general prosperity that the USA has, can easily dominate the world in any sport - given the structure to develop from a young age. Countries like Italy, Germany and Brazil would have serious competition from the USA - IF - the USA ever got organized about developing players. It would take an entire generation to get going though, and that's about 12 years from age 8-20.

 

[whaler11]

Part of the issue for the US is competition from other sports. You can see baseball has struggled for years as the percentage of African American players has dropped like a rock in MLB. Baseball can get around that drain with growing populations of players from the islands and Asia.

I imagine there are a lot of shortstops, centerfielders, point guards, quarterbacks, cornerbacks and wide receievers who have the skill set to play soccer at a high level. The problem is unlike guys who pick up basketball or football later in life like Embiid, I don't get the impression that you can give a 15 year old a soccer ball for the first time and develop them to play internationally.

 

[Carl Spackler]

Part of the issue for the US is competition from other sports. You can see baseball has struggled for years as the percentage of African American players has dropped like a rock in MLB. Baseball can get around that drain with growing populations of players from the islands and Asia.

I imagine there are a lot of shortstops, centerfielders, point guards, quarterbacks, cornerbacks and wide receievers who have the skill set to play soccer at a high level. The problem is unlike guys who pick up basketball or football later in life like Embiid, I don't get the impression that you can give a 15 year old a soccer ball for the first time and develop them to play internationally.

Exactly. What I know of soccer, it's a sport that the skill level required to play individually at the highest levels is something that takes a lifetime to develop on top of the genetics. As with team sports though, there are always ways for the group as a whole to be better than the individuals and that's kind of where USA soccer has been forever - trying to do the best we can as a team with what we have to work with.

It makes sense to me that in a country of 300 million + people with the quality of life that exists within our borders - and the money that is there for parents and coaches and facilities to invest - is that the only reason that we are not a perennial world power in soccer and world cup title winner and contender is that there has been no successful effort to actually build the national system to identify and develop the players that can do it from the earliest time when they are very little kids.

Put it this way, nobody is telling me - that if there was a system that could find, develop and filter as they grow up soccer players in the USA - that in our country of 300 million people - we would not be able to develop - within our borders - and assemble a roster of 23 athletes b/w the ages of 18-30 or so, with the ability to compete - and beat - the players from any other country in the world every 4 years.

- and that is with the competition from all other sports for athletes. We have enough, even with the competition for youth players among different sports - I think.

 

[ZooCougar]

The one thing that really struck me in my conversations with some soccer people, is that there is a consensus that the only thing really holding the USA back from being a world class dominant soccer power is not fan perception or money, or popularity or anything like that, but simply the lack of structure to find and develop players from the earliest ages up through age 18-25 nationwide. A country with the population, and resources and general prosperity that the USA has, can easily dominate the world in any sport - given the structure to develop from a young age. Countries like Italy, Germany and Brazil would have serious competition from the USA - IF - the USA ever got organized about developing players. It would take an entire generation to get going though, and that's about 12 years from age 8-20.

That's what I was getting at. The 2010 program, compared to most nations it was kind of rudimentary structure even if it has been effective.

In the grand scheme of things, I think that the structure you allude to is being established, but like all things of this nature it can't be built overnight and the results take many years to appear. That's why I think we're in sort of a transitional period. The dual nation guys are a godsend and it's been great to tap into that. I don't expect that to change much.

 

[ZooCougar]

The problem is unlike guys who pick up basketball or football later in life like Embiid, I don't get the impression that you can give a 15 year old a soccer ball for the first time and develop them to play internationally.

That would be correct. A lot like hockey in that regard. You just can't make up the time lost in skating.

Some world class athletes with size and speed could pick up football because the skills are transferable. You would think basketball would be like soccer but apparently it isn't but I think it would be harder to make a college football player into NBA caliber player than vice versa.

 

[UConnDan97]

My question is this: Given the current state of US Soccer, are we at a disadvantage because we have so many players with more than one passport, who have come up in more than one system? I would always defer to putting the most talented team on the field as possible, but it seems to me that we are kind of in a transitional period. Or maybe I am just overthinking it.

I understand what you're thinking about, but you are definitely overthinking it. Consider the following: The Brazilian national team, since as long as I can remember, has had a large portion of their players spread out over Europe. Some played in defensive-minded Italy (Kaka, Thiago Silva, Maicon, etc.). Some played in short-pass, attack-minded Spain (Neymar, Marcelo, etc.). Some played in more direct forward-playing England / Germany (Oscar, Luiz, Dante). And of course, some play domestically.

When they come together, they REALLY come together! But a big difference is the quality of each player. It's been mentioned by others in this thread, but the first touch for many of our players just isn't there. The spacing and ability to work out of tight areas just isn't there. We'll get there, I'm sure, but it will take time...

 

[whaler11]

That's what I was getting at. The 2010 program, compared to most nations it was kind of rudimentary structure even if it has been effective.

In the grand scheme of things, I think that the structure you allude to is being established, but like all things of this nature it can't be built overnight and the results take many years to appear. That's why I think we're in sort of a transitional period. The dual nation guys are a godsend and it's been great to tap into that. I don't expect that to change much.

I think they might be near the tipping point where the national team has become big enough that you'll now start to get kids who dream of being Howard or Beasley or Donovan.

You also needed to clear the domestic league/income hurdle. If you were 13 and could choose between soccer and a sport where the potential future income is apparent it's not hard to see why you'd take the glamour of NCAA football and basketball or the bonuses available to baseball prospects.

Sure there is plenty of money to be made internationally in soccer but until recently there weren't many success stories to use as role models.

 

[ZooCougar]

I understand what you're thinking about, but you are definitely overthinking it. Consider the following: The Brazilian national team, since as long as I can remember, has had a large portion of their players spread out over Europe. Some played in defensive-minded Italy (Kaka, Thiago Silva, Maicon, etc.). Some played in short-pass, attack-minded Spain (Neymar, Marcelo, etc.). Some played in more direct forward-playing England / Germany (Oscar, Luiz, Dante). And of course, some play domestically.

When they come together, they REALLY come together! But a big difference is the quality of each player. It's been mentioned by others in this thread, but the first touch for many of our players just isn't there. The spacing and ability to work out of tight areas just isn't there. We'll get there, I'm sure, but it will take time...

But, they all grew up playing the game a certain way, and Brazil certainly has the most distinctive style I can think of.

The last "high level" game I saw in person was last season's MLS all star game. In person I always find it easier to see who really has the best touch. The contrast between the Americans playing on the MLS and the AS Roma players in terms of touch was pretty stark.

 

[ZooCougar]

I think they might be near the tipping point where the national team has become big enough that you'll now start to get kids who dream of being Howard or Beasley or Donovan.

You also needed to clear the domestic league/income hurdle. If you were 13 and could choose between soccer and a sport where the potential future income is apparent it's not hard to see why you'd take the glamour of NCAA football and basketball or the bonuses available to baseball prospects.

Sure there is plenty of money to be made internationally in soccer but until recently there weren't many success stories to use as role models.

I agree, actually we may have already gone past that tipping point. I live in Freaking Kansas City, home of the Chiefs and you can't go out to a public place with lots of people and not see kids wearing Sporting KC Besler or Zusi jerseys. The city is fervently behind that team.

 

[UConnDan97]

But, they all grew up playing the game a certain way, and Brazil certainly has the most distinctive style I can think of.

The last "high level" game I saw in person was last season's MLS all star game. In person I always find it easier to see who really has the best touch. The contrast between the Americans playing on the MLS and the AS Roma players in terms of touch was pretty stark.

I just used Brazil as an example. Most countries are like this, actually. If you want the most realistic comparison for us, look no further than our first match in Brazil: Ghana.

Ghana "technically" doesn't really have a style of play or a system that they can grow up in. Their domestic league is complete crap. Their players are scattered to the four winds. But they are a strong team! We are going to have our hands full with them.

It's a matter of development of the individuals, regardless of the style that they grow up in or grow up watching. And right now, we just need a little more time as a country to develop. There will be plenty more Dempseys to come, I'm sure...

 

[Carl Spackler]

I understand what you're thinking about, but you are definitely overthinking it. Consider the following: The Brazilian national team, since as long as I can remember, has had a large portion of their players spread out over Europe. Some played in defensive-minded Italy (Kaka, Thiago Silva, Maicon, etc.). Some played in short-pass, attack-minded Spain (Neymar, Marcelo, etc.). Some played in more direct forward-playing England / Germany (Oscar, Luiz, Dante). And of course, some play domestically.

When they come together, they REALLY come together! But a big difference is the quality of each player. It's been mentioned by others in this thread, but the first touch for many of our players just isn't there. The spacing and ability to work out of tight areas just isn't there. We'll get there, I'm sure, but it will take time...

My guess would be that happens purely because the European professional leagues are probably the highest paying leagues on average in the world - rather than some developmental thing for Brazil. Klinsmann, I think, has preferred USA players to be overseas - specifically in Europe - for developmental purposes and that's maybe where the thought process could come from that other countries might do the same thing - although I'm pretty sure that was not what zoocougar was writing about.

 

[Carl Spackler]

I think they might be near the tipping point where the national team has become big enough that you'll now start to get kids who dream of being Howard or Beasley or Donovan.

You also needed to clear the domestic league/income hurdle. If you were 13 and could choose between soccer and a sport where the potential future income is apparent it's not hard to see why you'd take the glamour of NCAA football and basketball or the bonuses available to baseball prospects.

Sure there is plenty of money to be made internationally in soccer but until recently there weren't many success stories to use as role models.

I just don't agree with that concept you lay out of a 13 year old multisport athlete choosing another sport over soccer because of future income potential. I think it's a misconception and flawed argument. I'll leave it at that - we disagree - that that is a problem.