Lebron vs. Kobe

[21Huskies]

some of you should go back and read some of the old Lebron/Kobe threads, some of the OKC/Heat, Celtics/Heat, Lebron threads.

some funny stuff spewed and some people who obviously have no clue about basketball can be exposed in those threads.

 

[tzznandrew]

I can never figure out why people just refuse to accept the possibility that someone could eventually be "better than Jordan". Every generation gets their guy, and some of us get to see more than one of those guys play and I think guys like Bryant and especially James are right there with Jordan as players.

I think Jordan was probably the best basketball player that I have ever seen, but LeBron James does things that he physically couldn't do. He's bigger, stronger, faster and has the game to match him. And he is getting better, which is scary. Anyway, that is the end of my rant and I would finish it by saying that we need to see what happens over the next five years or so before really getting into this argument full bore.

Kobe can't carry Jordan's jock strap. There's not a level you can look at (other than playing more games) that he compares favorably with Jordan. Jordan had a high average, higher shooting percentages, high overall efficiency (by a lot with a lot rougher defenses), more MVPs, etc. Kobe will have more total points by the time he retires. That says something about a player. You don't score over 30,000 without being damn good. But he's not in Jordan's league. In fact, if you were to look at a five year prime period, I would take Bird, LeBron, Baylor, Kareem, Magic, Robertson, Russell, Duncan, all ahead of him aside from Jordan.

As for LeBron. Here, you are right. What's he's doing has been seen before--but only by the greatest of the great. It's hard to fathom. If we wait five years, and he's healthy and putting up numbers close to this, and has three more titles or so, then yes, we'd have to talk.

But Kobe's argument is over, for what its worth. He's a damn good player. Career-wise, top 5-8. Who would you pick in their prime, Top 10-12. But for all the ballyhoo about Kobe, he was never the best player in the league in any specific season. He's a relatively inefficient volume scorer who has kept himself in great health, and works his off to win every game he's in (except Game 7 vs. Phoenix).

 

[jfuchs91]

It's always difficult to compare players from different generations, but one thing that I feel constantly gets overlooked is the difference in the pace of the game over time when comparing statistics.

Between 1984-1992 (which was up to MJ's age 28 season; same as LeBron now) the league averaged over 100 possessions per game, while between 2003 and now that number is hovering around 92. Following this trend, the league-wide shooting percentage was around 3% higher in the earlier timeframe, there were about 4 more assists per team per game, and 10 more points per game. Context is incredibly important when we're throwing out stats comparing players of different generations.

Additionally, people always talk about how the NBA's rules now makes scoring easier (specifically, the hand check rule). The league-wide stats paint a different picture. Even after adjusting for the faster pace of the league in 1984-1992, there were more free-throws, higher shooting percentages, and fewer blocked shots then than there are now. Obviously I'm generalizing an incredible amount, but it's hard to discount such clear statistical differences. I'd say that the overall quality of defense is higher now than it was during that period, regardless of whether or not the rules are more favorable for scorers now.

 

[tzznandrew]

It's always difficult to compare players from different generations, but one thing that I feel constantly gets overlooked is the difference in the pace of the game over time when comparing statistics.

Between 1984-1992 (which was up to MJ's age 28 season; same as LeBron now) the league averaged over 100 possessions per game, while between 2003 and now that number is hovering around 92. Following this trend, the league-wide shooting percentage was around 3% higher in the earlier timeframe, there were about 4 more assists per team per game, and 10 more points per game. Context is incredibly important when we're throwing out stats comparing players of different generations.

Additionally, people always talk about how the NBA's rules now makes scoring easier (specifically, the hand check rule). The league-wide stats paint a different picture. Even after adjusting for the faster pace of the league in 1984-1992, there were more free-throws, higher shooting percentages, and fewer blocked shots then than there are now. Obviously I'm generalizing an incredible amount, but it's hard to discount such clear statistical differences. I'd say that the overall quality of defense is higher now than it was during that period, regardless of whether or not the rules are more favorable for scorers now.

These are valid points. I think something pace adjusted (like PER) are better measures than straight stats (Oscar Robertson still had some great PER years...but below Jordan and LeBron and others).

When you use those, you see just how far behind Kobe is from Jordan. I think some of the reason that shooting percentages were higher isn't just good defense, but teams (perimeter players specifically) started taking lower percentage shots--specifically 3 pointers. The line was there from 1984-1992, but far fewer teams took advantage of it, especially compared to now. Jordan never attempted more than 300 (297 in 1997) 3s. Kobe has taken more than that 8 times. Jordan had a number of years where he took fewer than 100; Kobe has none.

But when you use those numbers, you do get a sense of how, statistically at least, LeBron relatively close.

 

[TheChamps990411]

As a player lbj is not as good as jordan was at his best. people talk about how high lbj can jump and just how fast and athletic he is but one thing no one is mentioning is if you watched mj through his career he used to do some things on the court that youve never seen anyone do before or since. how many times did mj throw in reverse layups without even looking at the basket? hit free throws with his eyes closed? fly through the air between defenders and double pump and lay it in? switch the ball from one hand to the other on his way to the basket? leave two defenders baffled as he blew by them and threw it down? i think john starks is still looking for mj. he did things that just left you shaking your head in disbelief. i havent gotten that from lbj. sure he jumps higher than anyone and his dunks are amazing but he doesnt have those magical moments that make him see like he`s from another planet or a magician.

 

[bmayuc]

As a player lbj is not as good as jordan was at his best. people talk about how high lbj can jump and just how fast and athletic he is but one thing no one is mentioning is if you watched mj through his career he used to do some things on the court that youve never seen anyone do before or since. how many times did mj throw in reverse layups without even looking at the basket? hit free throws with his eyes closed? fly through the air between defenders and double pump and lay it in? switch the ball from one hand to the other on his way to the basket? leave two defenders baffled as he blew by them and threw it down? i think john starks is still looking for mj. he did things that just left you shaking your head in disbelief. i havent gotten that from lbj. sure he jumps higher than anyone and his dunks are amazing but he doesnt have those magical moments that make him see like he`s from another planet or a magician.

Look if you want to argue Jordan is a better player that is fine. Better athlete? Besides the fact that Jordan mysticism that is found above (lebron has done equal amounts to amaze) , Lebron is much bigger, much stronger with the same ridiculous athletic ability. LeBron might be the modt dominating pure athlete ever.



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[bmayuc]

Also, keep in mind that the league was absurdly watered down in the 90s due mostly to expansion, poor understanding of cap management(and i would also argue the explosion of contracts). Look at the main rivals to Jordan and the talent doesnt match up.The league during LeBrons prime is as stacked as it has ever been, and features much more mature management, which is aimed at parity.

Jordan still owms the titles, but in pure level of play LeBron is right there...

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[BarkingDog]

Your under the age of 30 arent you?

LOL. I'll be 50 later this year. So I guess I have that in common with Jordan.

 

[FfldCntyFan]

Oscar Robertson only has 1 championship and I absolutely think he's a top 10 player ever. I'm no old enough to have seen Oscar or Elgin Baylor play but my dad is an NBA junkie and I was talking to him recently about Lebron, my dad was a huge Oscar fan but he says Lebron is better and he says Lebron is way better than Elgin Baylor. These debates are good in that it gets people talking about the all-time greats and it's fun to compare players from different generations. Another interesting point is that Kobe only has 1 MVP and I'm almost positive that number won't change, Lebron already has 3, Jordan has 5.

When Jordan was at the height of his popularity Oscar would get furious when people would say MJ was the best ever because Oscar believed (and i fully agreed) that at any equal points in their respective careers he (Oscar) had it all over Jordan.

Jordan was an absolute all time great but there are a couple of things that need to be taken into account. For openers, he was able to benefit from hype from three upstart sources: ESPN, a fledgling cable network continually plugging his highlights, Nike, who used hyoing Jordan as the vehicle behind building their business (I believe they were number five in sneaker sales pre-Jordan) and the then new NBA commissioner (Stern) who was determined to build the league on star power.

If Oscar had the benefit of playing in a league that was so watered down (roughly twice as many teams in Jordan's NBA than in Oscars's) that one great player could carry a team and with rules altered to be give the benefiot of any call to the star, Oscar would have accomplished more than Jordan did.

This said (and this is coming from Knick fan), I find it mind boggling that people can even consider the six titles in eight years as something relatively close (most view it as better in fact) than eight in row and eleven in thirteen (another laughable point is that many cede the two years between the three-peats as Jordan titles). Bill Russell was the best winner that basketball has ever seen (and I will debate anyone on this for as long as they care to). Where I do find some solace in most of these discussions is that most of the people who make these claims are the same who believe that Dennis Rodman was the best rebounder ever.

 

[FfldCntyFan]

MJ would average 40 a game with today's rules.

Oscar would average 55, Wilt around 70.

 

[bmayuc]

Oscar would average 55, Wilt around 70.

LOL @ this

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[BarkingDog]

Also, keep in mind that the league was absurdly watered down in the 90s due mostly to expansion, poor understanding of cap management(and i would also argue the explosion of contracts). Look at the main rivals to Jordan and the talent doesnt match up.The league during LeBrons prime is as stacked as it has ever been, and features much more mature management, which is aimed at parity.

Jordan still owms the titles, but in pure level of play LeBron is right there...

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Totally agree with this. It was only when Jordan got past Patrick Ewing and John Starks that he went to all those finals. We're talking about John Starks? Who was the other team he had to beat? Reggie miller and who? I'm not kidding. the eastern conference was a joke. And who did he beat in the finals. OK, Utah with Stockton and milone was a really good team,. But who else? Pheonix. Seattle. Those weren't great teams. The league wasn't very deep.
Jordan played on the best team by far in the 90s. And while he may have won a couple championships in this era, there is no way he gets six rings. The league now is too deep, top to bottom. Think about all the great teams we've seen, lakers, spurs, Celtics, Heat, Mavericks.
Using the six rings as the metric that separates Jordan from Lebron is not a fair measurment. And when you measure their physical skills, I think lebron passes jordan.

 

[UConn990411]

Right now, there's no argument for LeBron over Jordan. But considering LeBron's career is only about halfway complete, this is really a silly debate to have right now.

Kobe doesn't belong in this discussion. That's not a criticism either - the guy is probably one of the 10 best players ever - but even at his peak Kobe never hit the LBJ/MJ level.

 

[FfldCntyFan]

LOL @ this

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You have no clue as to what transpired prior to ~ 1984.

Dwight Howard, the top big man in the game today is a physical specimen with basically no offensive game beyond putbacks. Wilt, fifty years ago was bigger, stronger, more athletic and was light years beyond Howard in terms of skill. There is nobody in the game today who could come close to stopping Wilt and unlike when he played, instead of allowing opponents to foul, without calling them, only because that was the only way to make it even close to fair, given even close to star treatment (which is standard fare in today's game) Wilt would be unstoppable. The only person who would be able to come close to guarding Oscar would be LeBron.

I will state however that given the treatment Jordan received (there was a stretch where if an opponent actually attempted to defend him a foul was automatically called), LeBron, Oscar or Wilt would have done far more than Jordan ever did (with the possible exception of acting in a cartoon movie).

 

[seanmc94]

Great teams? Mavericks, Celts and Lakers? Uh, no.
Those teams would get flogged by the Bulls, Jazz and even Knicks in the 90s.
Lbj is no where near the shooter mj was.
Mj was more artistic, lbj is a genetic freak. He makes it look too easy.

Kobe is great, but no mj. Lbj shoud pass him.
He did win a title by himself( no hof)
Mj didn't. Lbj hasn't yet.

 

[UConn990411]

Wilt was stronger than Dwight? Uh, I'm calling bulls**t on that.

vs.

Chamberlain got absolutely dominated by a guy who was four inches shorter than him (Russell). Considering the Dwights of the world are on another planet athletically, I think it's safe to say Wilt would be nowhere near as effective if he played today.

(Heck, I think LeBron could do a pretty good job defending Wilt 1-on-1.)

 

[bmayuc]

Great teams? Mavericks, Celts and Lakers? Uh, no.
Those teams would get flogged by the Bulls, Jazz and even Knicks in the 90s.
Lbj is no where near the shooter mj was.
Mj was more artistic, lbj is a genetic freak. He makes it look too easy.

Kobe is great, but no mj. Lbj shoud pass him.
He did win a title by himself( no hof)
Mj didn't. Lbj hasn't yet.

Sean you are fully aware that Lebron is shooting 57% this year, 42% from three, and a league leadijg 57% on spot up jumpers, which leads the league. Right?

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[bmayuc]

You have no clue as to what transpired prior to ~ 1984.

Dwight Howard, the top big man in the game today is a physical specimen with basically no offensive game beyond putbacks. Wilt, fifty years ago was bigger, stronger, more athletic and was light years beyond Howard in terms of skill. There is nobody in the game today who could come close to stopping Wilt and unlike when he played, instead of allowing opponents to foul, without calling them, only because that was the only way to make it even close to fair, given even close to star treatment (which is standard fare in today's game) Wilt would be unstoppable. The only person who would be able to come close to guarding Oscar would be LeBron.

I will state however that given the treatment Jordan received (there was a stretch where if an opponent actually attempted to defend him a foul was automatically called), LeBron, Oscar or Wilt would have done far more than Jordan ever did (with the possible exception of acting in a cartoon movie).

You make my point without trying to. There was no one near his size/strength/athletic ability when he played. Oh, and the pace the game was played at was almost 1.5 times as fast. Therefore more possessions, points, rebounds, etc.

So add it together and his stats would precipitously decline, not the other way around.

Better defense, better athletic competition, less minutes, less possession, more complex defense/strategy.

I could go on and on but old-timers claiming that players of their generation were so superior is comical. They would be great players, but to make the case that they would be levels above todays players is just laughable.

Im 28, and I respect the history and evolution of the game, but lets be real this is an evolutionary game, not a static one. Every generations players learn from their elders and grow the game and get better. Its not a knock on the older guys but not a comparison either.

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[TheChamps990411]

Look if you want to argue Jordan is a better player that is fine. Better athlete? Besides the fact that Jordan mysticism that is found above (lebron has done equal amounts to amaze) , Lebron is much bigger, much stronger with the same ridiculous athletic ability. LeBron might be the modt dominating pure athlete ever.



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where did i say better athlete?

 

[bmayuc]

where did i say better athlete?

I was rebutting that claim in general. But if you arent "amazed" at the things lebron does, you shoud check your pulse. As a free service, I have provided a link to the 2007 game 5 vs. The pistons when he scored the final 25 points for the cavs. So hes been doing it for at least 6 years now on that level.





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[Excalibur]

Oscar would average 55, Wilt around 70.

Not a chance, particularly Wilt.

 

[seanmc94]

Sean you are fully aware that Lebron is shooting 57% this year, 42% from three, and a league leadijg 57% on spot up jumpers, which leads the league. Right?

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One season does not a career make. Lebron is not a great shooter. MJ developed into one. Percentages can lie. Check the postseason numbers...anyone can get going vs the Bobcats

 

[bmayuc]

OK.

Jordan Playoff Stats:

33 PPG(25 shots), 6 RB, 6 Dimes, .487 FG%, .332 3fg% on Pace of 99 possessions/game. Average league FG% .480 his years in league(so Jordan was +.007% above league average)

LeBron Playoff Stats:

29PPG(21 shots), 9 RB, 7 Dimes, .469 FG%, .316 3fg% on pace of 91 possessions/game. Average league FG % .445 his years in league( So Lebron is .024% above average)

If you do the quick math and adjust LeBrons stats for era tempo/shooting differences, here is what you get:

LeBron(+10%): 32 ppg, 10rb, 8 dimes

My point here is not "wow, lebron is so much better than jordan". Simply, it is that your relfexive dismissal of Lebron and assumption that Jordan was somehow the better shooter is freaking nuts. especially considering that these are Lebrons shooting stats the past 3 years:

2010-11 26 MIA NBA SF 79 79 38.8 9.6 18.8 .510 1.2 3.5 .330 6.4 8.4 .759 1.0 6.5 7.5 7.0 1.6 0.6 3.6 2.1 26.7
2011-12 27 MIA NBA SF 62 62 37.5 10.0 18.9 .531 0.9 2.4 .362 6.2 8.1 .771 1.5 6.4 7.9 6.2 1.9 0.8 3.4 1.5 27.1
2012-13 28 MIA NBA PF 50 50 38.5 10.4 18.4 .565 1.4 3.4 .424 5.0 6.8 .743 1.2 6.9 8.2 6.9 1.7 0.9 3.0 1.6
27.3

And Lebron is doing this in a league that averages .445% from the field. Jordan, despite playing in a league that averaged .480% during his career, never in his greatest season approached the efficiency Lebron is displaying. At any point. And your dismissal that "not a season does a career make?" A little shortsighted seeing that at 28, Lebron is just entering his prime. And is putting up numbers that even Jordan would blush at.

 

[mauconnfan]

Michaels the best not close, Lebron and Kobe are really really good.

Who cares?

 

[uconnfan68]

Wilt was stronger than Dwight? Uh, I'm calling bulls**t on that.

vs.

Chamberlain got absolutely dominated by a guy who was four inches shorter than him (Russell). Considering the Dwights of the world are on another planet athletically, I think it's safe to say Wilt would be nowhere near as effective if he played today.

(Heck, I think LeBron could do a pretty good job defending Wilt 1-on-1.)

And they are checking baseball players for juice? Look in Dwight's locker.

And Wilt was a WORLD-CLASS athlete, incredibly strong and fast. How many guys to you know with 20k notches?