Is This a Hall of Fame Career?

[Wbbfan1]

Gail Goestenkors going into the Women's Basketball Hall of Fame.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gail_Goestenkors

IMHO this is the Girls Network voting one of their own in. Good/Great Record at Duke, average at Texas and no National Championships. 498 Wins with 163 losses.

 

[RockyMTblue2]

I understand the conflict, but GG really tore up the ACC while at Duke - she just could not consistently challenge our dogs - had a lot of fun with the rivalry, I did, as did DT. I never felt her "in game" coaching was the greatest. Texas, of course, was such a disaster she left a year or two early saying she needed a change/rest? Good game "color person" and WNBA assistant now I believe. I'm on the fence.

 

[alexrgct]

Her timing was serendipitous at Duke insomuch as she became head WBB coach there just as Coach K had completed the ascent of the Duke men and made them champions. I firmly believe the brand equity the men's program established for Duke basketball helped Gail build the women's program from scratch. It also doesn't hurt that Duke is an elite institution academically, where admission to the school and to get a free ride there is a big draw (a la Stanford and Northwestern).

Having said all of that, Gail did leverage what she had going for her and built another powerhouse program in Durham. The 1999 regional final was a shocking upset of Tennessee and a nice run to the championship game. Duke also came within a hair's breadth of winning it all in 2006 and was an entrant into the Final Four three other times. I do think she would have had even greater success than Coach P from 2007-08 to present.

However, you cannot overlook how much of a disaster she was at Texas. This was a program with some tradition, a great location, good academics (even if it isn't Duke), immense resources and facilities, etc. Yes, Gail had to pick up the rubble left by Jody Conradt, but Texas was still a place with all the things that should enable success. And her record was awful: 102-64 W-L record, a losing overall record in the Big XII, and no trips past the second round of the tourney (and only one trip TO the second round of the tourney, even). In short, her chances of success at Texas should have been as auspicious as at Duke, she was well compensated for it, and she failed miserably.

Her resume might have been HoF-worthy had she stayed at Duke, but as is, she's won 498 games with no NCs. That doesn't feel like a resume that writes a broadly-memorable chapter in the history of WCBB.

 

[bballnut90]

Gail Goestenkors going into the Women's Basketball Hall of Fame.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gail_Goestenkors

IMHO this is the Girls Network voting one of their own in. Good/Great Record at Duke, average at Texas and no National Championships. 498 Wins with 163 losses.

Well deserved. Even if you discredit her time at Texas, she did a LOT at Duke. She played in 2 championships, 4 Final Fours, earned a slew of #1 seeds, pulled off one of the biggest upsets ever in 1999, led Duke to an undefeated regular season in 2007, was ranked #1 or #2 during stretches of most seasons between 1999-2007, coached a slew of All Americans and dominated the ACC during that stretch.

 

[Icebear]

She falls shy of my expectations for a HoF honoree.

 

[RSHERMVIKES]

A great recuiter that got her 498 wins, a below average game coach that got her no NC's! "deer in the headlights" Goestenkors! A very good tv analyst.

 

[VAUConnFan]

Of course she deserves it. There are few coaches in the WHOF with better coaching records, quite a few having never won a national championship.

 

[UcMiami]

Interesting question and I tend to agree - very good career, but just not enough wins. The run at Duke was very impressive and she certainly made noise on a national level for a period, but ...

There are about 15 D1 coaches with 600 wins not in the hall, and I am sure a lot more with 500+ wins. Her win percentage does place her #9 on the all-time list of coaches with at least 5 years in D1 (#35 for all divisions.) She does have a some USA basketball credits, but only as assistant coach on the National teams.

Just seems a little light to me for HOF. I would assume the deciding factor was the win percentage in tough conferences.

Not sure this is down to the 'Girls network' as I don't see her as really being part of that old time universe. Her HC career began in 1992 in the new wave of WCBB coaches, not the 'old guard'.

 

[VAUConnFan]

Posted below is the list of coaches currently inducted in the Women's Basketball Hall of Fame. Coach Goestenkors deserves to be among them:

Lidia Alexeeva
Joanne Bracker
Jody Conradt
John Head
Billie Moore
Harley Redin
Jim Smiddy
Pat Summitt
Bertha Teague
Margaret Wade
Breezy Bishop
Fran Garmon
Dorothy Gaters
Sue Gunter
Lorene Ramsey
Cathy Rush
Dean Weese
Kay Yow
Van Chancellor
Theresa Grentz
Linda K. Sharp
C. Vivian Stringer
Sandra Meadows
Marianne Crawford Stanley
Tara VanDerveer
Leon Barmore
Marsha Sharp
Sylvia Hatchell
Amy Ruley
Marian E. Washington
Joe Ciampi
Edna Tarbutton
Dixie Woodall
Geno Auriemma
Barbara Stevens
Andy Landers
Lin L. Laursen
Debbie Ryan
Sonja Hogg
Jill Hutchison
Leta Andrews
Chris Weller
Muffet McGraw
Nancy Fahey
Gary Blair
Jim Foster
Lin Dunn

 

[triaddukefan]

Posted below is the list of coaches currently inducted in the Women's Basketball Hall of Fame. Coach Goestenkors deserves to be among them:

Lidia Alexeeva
Joanne Bracker
Jody Conradt
John Head
Billie Moore
Harley Redin
Jim Smiddy
Pat Summitt
Bertha Teague
Margaret Wade
Breezy Bishop
Fran Garmon
Dorothy Gaters
Sue Gunter
Lorene Ramsey
Cathy Rush
Dean Weese
Kay Yow
Van Chancellor
Theresa Grentz
Linda K. Sharp
C. Vivian Stringer
Sandra Meadows
Marianne Crawford Stanley
Tara VanDerveer
Leon Barmore
Marsha Sharp
Sylvia Hatchell
Amy Ruley
Marian E. Washington
Joe Ciampi
Edna Tarbutton
Dixie Woodall
Geno Auriemma
Barbara Stevens
Andy Landers
Lin L. Laursen
Debbie Ryan
Sonja Hogg
Jill Hutchison
Leta Andrews
Chris Weller
Muffet McGraw
Nancy Fahey
Gary Blair
Jim Foster
Lin Dunn

My initial thought was no..... but after seeing that list.... I'll say yes

M

 

[RockyMTblue2]

I'm convinced. WCBB can use another hero! I think Tina Turner would agree.

 

[alexrgct]

The list of inductees may underscore that the HoF is too inclusive and that adding Coach G, one could argue, merely reinforces that.

 

[Bonpland]

Seperate of whether or not she deserves to be in the HOF, it's interesting to speculate on how (as has been described by others) she could dominate the ACC, get to the dance more than once, and then so completely miss at Texas. There may not be another school nationally that's more supportive of their overall sports program than Texas, and as has been mentioned, they print their own money. Texas is loaded with HS talent and love of the Longhorns seems to drive the whole State. What happened?

 

[Aluminny69]

Seperate of whether or not she deserves to be in the HOF, it's interesting to speculate on how (as has been described by others) she could dominate the ACC, get to the dance more than once, and then so completely miss at Texas. There may not be another school nationally that's more supportive of their overall sports program than Texas, and as has been mentioned, they print their own money. Texas is loaded with HS talent and love of the Longhorns seems to drive the whole State. What happened?

As I remember, there were a lot of key injuries. I don't think she ever had a completely healthy team at Texas.

 

[UcMiami]

VAU - without doing a lot of research that list doesn't help a lot as I only recognize about half the names. One of the issues with any HOF is that a large amount of fans are recent devotees so the history and name/accomplishments of more historic figures is vague at best. So ... rather than checking everything I decided just to check the most recent inductees for coaching:

2014: Lynn Dunn 447-257 in college plus a pro career that includes 1 WNBA title. Doubt she makes it in on her college career, but was a pioneer of both pro leagues and I think that pushes her over the bar.

2013: Gary Blair - 688-277 (.711) 16 Conf. championships and 1 NC
2013: Jim Foster - 838-314 (.723) 20 Conf. championships

2012: Nancy Fahey (DIII) 663-121 (.846) 5 NCs

2011: Muffet - 787-262 (.750) 1 NC and 7 FF, 19 Conf championships

2010: Lete Andrew (HS) 1416 wins! record for most wins by any coach men's or women's (Finalist for the Naismith HOF)
2010: Chris Weller - 499-286 (.636) 3 FF and 8 ACC titles spanning transition to NCAA

2009: Sonja Hogg - 390-146 (.727) (307-55 (.848) with the LaTech in her first stint) 2 NCs and the first undefeated D1 season 6 FF
2009: Jill Hutchison - 428-304 (.585) Pioneer of the modern game of full court basketball for women.

2008: Debbie Ryan - 736-333 (.695) 14 conf. titles and 3 FF
2008 Lin L Laursen (JC) - 971-145 (.870) 3 NCs and 11 FF

It is an interesting list for comparison purposes. Those with fairly comparable coaching records or where Gail's is superior have I think a lot more 'historical context' in terms of being instrumental in transitional moments for the game. Chris Weller from a cursory look is likely the one I would question most in terms of her election.

 

[UcMiami]

As I remember, there were a lot of key injuries. I don't think she ever had a completely healthy team at Texas.

Injuries, but also reportedly culture/personality clashes with supports and the state basketball community.

 

[Icebear]

The list of inductees may underscore that the HoF is too inclusive and that adding Coach G, one could argue, merely reinforces that.

I agree that the list has a lot of dead wood in it.

 

[KnightBridgeAZ]

VAU - without doing a lot of research that list doesn't help a lot as I only recognize about half the names. One of the issues with any HOF is that a large amount of fans are recent devotees so the history and name/accomplishments of more historic figures is vague at best. So ... rather than checking everything I decided just to check the most recent inductees for coaching:

2014: Lynn Dunn was a pioneer of both pro leagues and I think that pushes her over the bar.

2013: Gary Blair - 688-277 (.711) 16 Conf. championships and 1 NC

2010: Chris Weller - 499-286 (.636) 3 FF and 8 ACC titles spanning transition to NCAA

2009: Jill Hutchison - 428-304 (.585) Pioneer of the modern game of full court basketball for women.

Chris Weller from a cursory look is likely the one I would question most in terms of her election.

UCM - I question the Gary Blair conference championship stat unless you are adding regular season and tournament championships together, possibly for the same years. He won 7 Regular Season champs at SFA but only 1 (tie) at Arkansas or A&M. And I just don't think he won that many conference tournament championships (historically) in his time in the SEC and not too many in the B12. Very good teams, never dominant, even in his FF and NC seasons.

Lynn Dunn, I agree.

Jill Hutchison was a long time coach, but if you want to call her a pioneer I think it would be that she was the first President of the WBCA. She still is a color commentator for the MVC. The full court basketball reference is to her Masters thesis (I believe she has a doctorate). Her Masters thesis was on whether Women were physically able to play full court BB. But as a coach she started just about the same time as Vivian. and many of the other well known coaches of the era.

Chris Weller was a first rate coach for her era. Rutgers played her Maryland teams a couple of times before she retired. Her record would look better if she had retired more promptly.

By the way, someone talked about the mess that Jody left at Texas. I don't recollect there being a mess, and Jody is still associated with the University and Women's Basketball.

As to GG, I think her candidacy would look better sans the Texas experience. That said, her Texas experience was impacted by injuries, as someone noted, and reportedly some issues with folks within the Texas recruiting circle.

 

[VAUConnFan]

The list of inductees may underscore that the HoF is too inclusive and that adding Coach G, one could argue, merely reinforces that.

As with UcMiami, my familiarity with a great deal of the coaches in the WHOF is slim to none so it would not be possible to comment on the WHOF's over-inclusiveness. However, I tend to agree with you as far as a number of the players.

 

[bballnut90]

I'd vote her over Foster or Blair any day of the week. I don't care that she "only" has 498 wins and coached ~20 years. GG revamped Duke from being a bottom dweller in the ACC to a top program and consistent title threat. Duke was far and away the best program outside of Tennessee and Connecticut from 1998-2007, which speaks volumes about GG. I believe in this time frame she had .500 records or better against both Pat and Geno which is unheard of. Even though she didn't win the big one, her teams were realistically HUGE title threats in the following years:
1999-Had lead going into half time in the championship game. Completely over achieved this year.
2003-Entered the Final Four with a 35-1 record, throttled Tennessee during regular season, only loss entering the Final Four was to UCONN
2004-Was many people's favorite to win it all going into the tournament
2006-The one that got away...had the title sealed but Duke made some big mistakes late and Toliver nailed the three over Bales
2007-The favorite to win it all entering the tournament after an undefeated regular season

Duke was the ONLY program that kept pace with, and regularly beat Tennessee and Connecticut. In fact, in Gail's last 5 years at Duke, she won at least 1 game against Pat or Geno every season and went 6-3 in that time frame.

Many other coaches who are in the HOF have had good years, regularly racked up 20+ win seasons and took home conference titles, but for many years, Gail was the only one who proved she could regularly compete with and beat both Tennessee and Connecticut....and for that, she has my vote.

As an aside, once Gail left Duke, the program declined and has taken a back seat to programs like Connecticut, Notre Dame, Stanford and others. I truly believe had she stayed at Duke, she would have taken home a championship by now. More significantly, I believe Duke would have been able to compete with Connecticut in many of the seasons where UCONN simply had no peer.

 

[alexrgct]

I'd vote her over Foster or Blair any day of the week. I don't care that she "only" has 498 wins and coached ~20 years. GG revamped Duke from being a bottom dweller in the ACC to a top program and consistent title threat. Duke was far and away the best program outside of Tennessee and Connecticut from 1998-2007, which speaks volumes about GG. I believe in this time frame she had .500 records or better against both Pat and Geno which is unheard of. Even though she didn't win the big one, her teams were realistically HUGE title threats in the following years:
1999-Had lead going into half time in the championship game. Completely over achieved this year.
2003-Entered the Final Four with a 35-1 record, throttled Tennessee during regular season, only loss entering the Final Four was to UCONN
2004-Was many people's favorite to win it all going into the tournament
2006-The one that got away...had the title sealed but Duke made some big mistakes late and Toliver nailed the three over Bales
2007-The favorite to win it all entering the tournament after an undefeated regular season

Duke was the ONLY program that kept pace with, and regularly beat Tennessee and Connecticut. In fact, in Gail's last 5 years at Duke, she won at least 1 game against Pat or Geno every season and went 6-3 in that time frame.

Many other coaches who are in the HOF have had good years, regularly racked up 20+ win seasons and took home conference titles, but for many years, Gail was the only one who proved she could regularly compete with and beat both Tennessee and Connecticut....and for that, she has my vote.

As an aside, once Gail left Duke, the program declined and has taken a back seat to programs like Connecticut, Notre Dame, Stanford and others. I truly believe had she stayed at Duke, she would have taken home a championship by now. More significantly, I believe Duke would have been able to compete with Connecticut in many of the seasons where UCONN simply had no peer.

But again, she failed at Texas. Miserably. Karen Aston, who had very little in the way of head coaching chops prior to taking the reins, has already taken the Horns further than GG ever did....and that was with the season-ending injury to Nneka E. Maybe you argue she wasn't right for that job but was right for Duke...but she made the decision to leave and was so conspicuous in not delivering.

 

[VAUConnFan]

But again, she failed at Texas. Miserably. Karen Aston, who had very little in the way of head coaching chops prior to taking the reins, has already taken the Horns further than GG ever did....and that was with the season-ending injury to Nneka E. Maybe you argue she wasn't right for that job but was right for Duke...but she made the decision to leave and was so conspicuous in not delivering.

A bit of an overstatement. Texas in the two years prior to Coach G's arrival had not made the NCAA Tournament but did so in all five of the years under Coach G. Her record was not great at Texas but she did bring the Longhorns back. Coach Aston, in two years, has, in fact, taken the Longhorns one round deeper into the tournament. Hopefully, the improvement will continue.

Failure is not a reason to exclude one from the Hall of Fame, especially amidst all the previous success. Bobby Knight had no where near the success at Texas Tech as he enjoyed at Indiana. Rick Pitino and John Calipari did not fare well in the NBA. Sonja Hogg had fabulous teams at Louisiana Tech, but was barely able to get Baylor into the post season in her six years; Two WNIT appearances.

 

[UcMiami]

UCM - I question the Gary Blair conference championship stat unless you are adding regular season and tournament championships together, possibly for the same years. He won 7 Regular Season champs at SFA but only 1 (tie) at Arkansas or A&M. And I just don't think he won that many conference tournament championships (historically) in his time in the SEC and not too many in the B12. Very good teams, never dominant, even in his FF and NC seasons.

Lynn Dunn, I agree.

Jill Hutchison was a long time coach, but if you want to call her a pioneer I think it would be that she was the first President of the WBCA. She still is a color commentator for the MVC. The full court basketball reference is to her Masters thesis (I believe she has a doctorate). Her Masters thesis was on whether Women were physically able to play full court BB. But as a coach she started just about the same time as Vivian. and many of the other well known coaches of the era.

Chris Weller was a first rate coach for her era. Rutgers played her Maryland teams a couple of times before she retired. Her record would look better if she had retired more promptly.

By the way, someone talked about the mess that Jody left at Texas. I don't recollect there being a mess, and Jody is still associated with the University and Women's Basketball.

As to GG, I think her candidacy would look better sans the Texas experience. That said, her Texas experience was impacted by injuries, as someone noted, and reportedly some issues with folks within the Texas recruiting circle.

Conference championship numbers include both tournaments and regular seasons (and were counted twice when both were won in a single year.) And I may have made an error or two in those counts and in other numbers as well - was pulling from wicki and other sources and not being overly careful - just trying to get the gist of their careers down.

Any sport HOF has some magic numbers that are seen as 'guarantees' of election except for extra-ordinary circumstances. For baseball 300 wins and 500 HR are pretty clearly defined and of very long standing, for WCBB which is a more recent creation and covers many different eras and many different levels, they are a bit 'squishy', but 700 wins in D1 appears to be one - their are two coaches at that level of wins with some D1 experience that have not been elected, while 14 with 600+ wins have not been elected. (FYI - The Naismith has elected all WCBB D1 coaches with 900 wins though some were elected well before they reached that mark, and Kay Yow, Sue Gunter who are in the 700+ range)

After those magic numbers historical significance and extraordinary accomplishments are obvious qualifiers. And then it gets very subjective and includes 'popularity' or 'momentum' or 'perception'.

I do think WCBB's hall may have some 'questionable' or 'aberrational' inductees, but so does every other hall.

For me, the zero NCs and low win total, combined by not really standing out in any other area from her peers, makes Gail at least 'questionable' - her win percentage as I stated before is her strongest point, and it occurred during a golden age of expanding awareness for the women's game so there is some (minor?) historical importance.

 

[UcMiami]

I'd vote her over Foster or Blair any day of the week. I don't care that she "only" has 498 wins and coached ~20 years. GG revamped Duke from being a bottom dweller in the ACC to a top program and consistent title threat. Duke was far and away the best program outside of Tennessee and Connecticut from 1998-2007, which speaks volumes about GG. I believe in this time frame she had .500 records or better against both Pat and Geno which is unheard of. Even though she didn't win the big one, her teams were realistically HUGE title threats in the following years:
1999-Had lead going into half time in the championship game. Completely over achieved this year.
2003-Entered the Final Four with a 35-1 record, throttled Tennessee during regular season, only loss entering the Final Four was to UCONN
2004-Was many people's favorite to win it all going into the tournament
2006-The one that got away...had the title sealed but Duke made some big mistakes late and Toliver nailed the three over Bales
2007-The favorite to win it all entering the tournament after an undefeated regular season

Duke was the ONLY program that kept pace with, and regularly beat Tennessee and Connecticut. In fact, in Gail's last 5 years at Duke, she won at least 1 game against Pat or Geno every season and went 6-3 in that time frame.

Many other coaches who are in the HOF have had good years, regularly racked up 20+ win seasons and took home conference titles, but for many years, Gail was the only one who proved she could regularly compete with and beat both Tennessee and Connecticut....and for that, she has my vote.

As an aside, once Gail left Duke, the program declined and has taken a back seat to programs like Connecticut, Notre Dame, Stanford and others. I truly believe had she stayed at Duke, she would have taken home a championship by now. More significantly, I believe Duke would have been able to compete with Connecticut in many of the seasons where UCONN simply had no peer.

Nice - but ... being the favorite and failing is a double edged sword - you obviously have created a great team, but cannot get them to the finish line. Your list of frustration in the NCAA includes only one season, the first, where she over-achieved and four where she perhaps under-achieved. Being David is a great thing, being Goliath not so much!

As for Foster - longevity with significant success, plus coaching tree, is certainly impressive. And reaching the mountain top even once is significant for Blair and he does have almost 200 wins more.

I am fine with the election - just think it is debatable in a civilized sense of that word.

 

[jcoton56]

I like CD's resume better. In fact it isn't even close.