Hockey East move is official.

[brasssbonanzaa]

i am a prep alum btw. the whale was our 2nd home ice. ever year we always packed that place. fun times. f hamden! f ndwh! f wh! and double f ndfl!!!!!

It certainly seems like a very old school collegiate atmosphere, even if it is an Ivy venue, similar to Maine, BU's old Walter Brown, and Matthews at Northeastern. That's part of the reason playing in a quarter-full cavernous XL Center is a terrible idea.

 

[brasssbonanzaa]

FWIW I'm not a Matthews fan at all, much prefer Agannis every day of the week.

We agree on far too many things, there is exactly one row of good seating in Matthews, every place else completely sucks. And the place is half empty most of the time so the atmosphere is more akin to a morgue.

You're also right about PC, they're making some good strides down there since canning Army, they had two horrendous hires in a row before landing Leaman.

A very realistic goal for UConn is to get into that second tier just below the powerhouse 3 or 4 that competes for the last home ice slot, and challenges to make the HE semis. That would put the program in a very realistic competitive place in the league, possibly snag one of the last at-large bids into the NCAA tournament, and that would keep the people coming. It's really good for the conference to have one or two of the "outsiders" make the Garden ever year as the underdog going up against the big shots. Certainly would be a great experience for UConn to be that team.

 

[brasssbonanzaa]

Is it October yet?

 

[kingdobbs]

I said the ECAC was "originally" not a league. When the NCAA Tourney expanded, the cut a deal with the ECAC that it could send 3 or 4 teams. The ECAC organized seperate geographic pools and ran 4-team tourneys for an NCAA berth. But that still wasn't a real league, in that UConn, in the New England pool, and VCU, in the southernmost area, still belonged to the same organization and didn't have seperate organizations that met and voted.

ECAC hockey was similar. In the days of the four team tournament, there were (a) only two conferences anyway (the WCHA and the ECAC), and there were two "automatic bids" that went to Eastern teams. These weren't necessarily the ECAC champions, or even the top two in the standings, just the two the committee thought were the best two in the region. For example, in 1963, Harvard won the ECAC regular season (by best win%), and the league tournament, but the committee invited Boston College and Clarkson instead. A year later, Providence won both and got a bid to the tourney, but sixth place Rensselaer was the second invitee.

I think a Connecticut tournament might be pretty decent, too. Yale, UCONN, Quinnipiac and you'd almost have to include Sacred Heart. Play it in Bridgeport sometimes and hartford others perhaps. I actually like Harbor Yard. It is really the "right" size for an arena whereas the XL is really too big for the market. Seats 8400 for hockey which is fine for Connecticut. XL seats almost twice as many. too big for most basketball games too...

Non-conference slots are still the major stumbling block for this idea, although it's lessened now that HEA appears to be adopting a 22 game schedule the year UConn joins, which will give UConn 12 non-cons. Quinnipiac and Yale also play 22 games as members of the ECAC, but Yale will be limited by the more stringent Ivy League limit of 29 games (so QU will have 12 and Yale 7), and it remains to be seen what the AHA will look like in 2014-15 for Sacred Heart's schedule. QU and Yale may not also want to give up a non-con for a potential rematch (while, yes, the Beanpot does such a thing, this is no Beanpot), so this hypothetical tournament may end up having a showcase format where Quinny and Yale wouldn't play each other.

 

[freescooter]

ECAC hockey was similar. In the days of the four team tournament, there were (a) only two conferences anyway (the WCHA and the ECAC), and there were two "automatic bids" that went to Eastern teams. These weren't necessarily the ECAC champions, or even the top two in the standings, just the two the committee thought were the best two in the region. For example, in 1963, Harvard won the ECAC regular season (by best win%), and the league tournament, but the committee invited Boston College and Clarkson instead. A year later, Providence won both and got a bid to the tourney, but sixth place Rensselaer was the second invitee.



Non-conference slots are still the major stumbling block for this idea, although it's lessened now that HEA appears to be adopting a 22 game schedule the year UConn joins, which will give UConn 12 non-cons. Quinnipiac and Yale also play 22 games as members of the ECAC, but Yale will be limited by the more stringent Ivy League limit of 29 games (so QU will have 12 and Yale 7), and it remains to be seen what the AHA will look like in 2014-15 for Sacred Heart's schedule. QU and Yale may not also want to give up a non-con for a potential rematch (while, yes, the Beanpot does such a thing, this is no Beanpot), so this hypothetical tournament may end up having a showcase format where Quinny and Yale wouldn't play each other.

ECAC hockey was similar. In the days of the four team tournament, there were (a) only two conferences anyway (the WCHA and the ECAC), and there were two "automatic bids" that went to Eastern teams. These weren't necessarily the ECAC champions, or even the top two in the standings, just the two the committee thought were the best two in the region. For example, in 1963, Harvard won the ECAC regular season (by best win%), and the league tournament, but the committee invited Boston College and Clarkson instead. A year later, Providence won both and got a bid to the tourney, but sixth place Rensselaer was the second invitee.



Non-conference slots are still the major stumbling block for this idea, although it's lessened now that HEA appears to be adopting a 22 game schedule the year UConn joins, which will give UConn 12 non-cons. Quinnipiac and Yale also play 22 games as members of the ECAC, but Yale will be limited by the more stringent Ivy League limit of 29 games (so QU will have 12 and Yale 7), and it remains to be seen what the AHA will look like in 2014-15 for Sacred Heart's schedule. QU and Yale may not also want to give up a non-con for a potential rematch (while, yes, the Beanpot does such a thing, this is no Beanpot), so this hypothetical tournament may end up having a showcase format where Quinny and Yale wouldn't play each other.

I had forgotten about the Yale schedule thing, so that's a problem. And I know this isn't the Beanpot, but there are ways to make it work, maybe Yale-Quinipiac is a conference game in those years they play each other in round 1. Who knows. As an aside, Quinipiac, I think, has some minor risk of being pushed into the background if UConn is reasonably successful in Hockey East. So I would think they would likely favor something like this.

 

[brasssbonanzaa]

QU certainly could get pushed to the background in terms of publicity in the state, but they do have the facilities to continue to be a competitive program in ECAC, they probably would just have to do even more of their recruiting in Canada and outside of the northeast.

 

[kingdobbs]

I had forgotten about the Yale schedule thing, so that's a problem. And I know this isn't the Beanpot, but there are ways to make it work, maybe Yale-Quinipiac is a conference game in those years they play each other in round 1. Who knows. As an aside, Quinipiac, I think, has some minor risk of being pushed into the background if UConn is reasonably successful in Hockey East. So I would think they would likely favor something like this.

Well, I don't think it's a huge deal breaker for the Yalies, especially if they get to play it in Bridgeport; they've been playing an "Ivy shootout" tournament at the beginning of the season with the other Ivies (minus Cornell and Harvard, the latter of which already sacrifices two NC matches to the Beanpot, and in some years a third to another one of the Beanpot teams), so I think the idea of "playing league opponents in non-con matchups" is not precisely anathema. While a "Nutmeg" tournament certainly doesn't provide an "Ivy camaraderie" feeling that the Ivy Shootout does, it's certainly something Yale might think of.

I think the toughest position on this is Sacred Heart's, though; while the exposure would certainly be great, I think they'd have to know that they're sort of the black sheep competition wise.

 

[brasssbonanzaa]

It could be modeled after the Great Lakes Invitational with UConn, QU, Yale, plus an invited team. I agree SHU would be a poor addition because of how bad they are and how few fans they have, but I doubt they'd turn down an invite, if anything, they'd push for one to get more relevance. But those three plus a different yearly invited team might be a good choice, probably a Hockey East team or top tier ECAC team like Cornell.

 

[brasssbonanzaa]

aic isn't anything special i know but they would also fit the tney if shu is a no go.

ugh, no. they're the only team in the country that is worse and has a smaller following than SHU. if you're going to go into Massachusetts, take Amherst.

 

[kingdobbs]

ugh, no. they're the only team in the country that is worse and has a smaller following than SHU. if you're going to go into Massachusetts, take Amherst.

That could make for an interesting little grouping. UConn and UMass play home and home, Quinny and Yale play home and home, the rubber match of the series plays at a neutral site for some form of trophy (QU and Yale do play for the not-very-well-known Heroes' Hat, which used to be contested between UConn and QU); the winners play the cup championship, the losers play the consolation.

 

[HartfordHank]

It could be modeled after the Great Lakes Invitational with UConn, QU, Yale, plus an invited team. I agree SHU would be a poor addition because of how bad they are and how few fans they have, but I doubt they'd turn down an invite, if anything, they'd push for one to get more relevance. But those three plus a different yearly invited team might be a good choice, probably a Hockey East team or top tier ECAC team like Cornell.

A different version could be Yale and UConn from CT and Brown and PC from RI?

 

[brasssbonanzaa]

A different version could be Yale and UConn from CT and Brown and PC from RI?

Brown and PC already play their annual Mayor's Cup game, so I doubt they'd tack on another one.

 

[Waquoit]

Gampel was originally built with capacity of 8800 because the powers that be felt that UConn would not support basketball on campus & to cut corners.

I don't think that was the case. I thought it was the sized it was so as not to conflict with the Civic Center.

And add me to the under list for any attendance projections at the XL Center. There was no clamor for Hockey East. Any good crowds will be because the visitors travelled well. This will be huge money burner for the athletic department. How does this affect Title 9? Will we have to start a 2nd women's crew team?

 

[Da_Aisijimo_Gou]

About Marshall? How many years?

 

[kingdobbs]

How does this affect Title 9? Will we have to start a 2nd women's crew team?

Scholarships would be added to the existing women's crew and to women's tennis.

 

[brasssbonanzaa]

About Marshall? How many years?

I was in the camp that in order to move up, he had to be canned, but I suppose he deserves a shot now that he'll have scholarships to offer recruits and the financial and administrative support of the school. But I would guess that he's on a very, very short leash since his overall performance since the program went D1 has been very, very poor in an overall bad league.

 

[zls44]

This will be huge money burner for the athletic department.

Congratulations, you just showed off how little you know about the subject.

 

[Dann]

I was in the camp that in order to move up, he had to be canned, but I suppose he deserves a shot now that he'll have scholarships to offer recruits and the financial and administrative support of the school. But I would guess that he's on a very, very short leash since his overall performance since the program went D1 has been very, very poor in an overall bad league.

well umass just stole the #1 coach on warde's sheet i assume so now where to look?

 

[uconndennis]

well umass just stole the #1 coach on warde's sheet i assume so now where to look?

He turned down umass....staying at Quinnipiac

 

[freescooter]

About Marshall? How many years?

I think you need to give him a shot. Probably 5 years...two more in AHA then 3 in Hockey East. If his teams seem to be making progress, you maybe give him a few more years. If not, he gets a thank you card and kicked up stairs as Assistant AD for facilities or something and you go out and get somebody. He was successful in D3. He has been less so in D1 though I give him some slack since UConn has 0 scholarships compared with others who had more. Remember he annually has 7 games he has little chance to win among his non-league games, almost all on the road. He hasn't done a great job, but he gets a couple of years in my book.

 

[kingdobbs]

I think you need to give him a shot. Probably 5 years...two more in AHA then 3 in Hockey East. If his teams seem to be making progress, you maybe give him a few more years. If not, he gets a thank you card and kicked up stairs as Assistant AD for facilities or something and you go out and get somebody. He was successful in D3. He has been less so in D1 though I give him some slack since UConn has 0 scholarships compared with others who had more. Remember he annually has 7 games he has little chance to win among his non-league games, almost all on the road. He hasn't done a great job, but he gets a couple of years in my book.

The disparity between the success in D-III and the lack thereof in D-I is what makes the Marshall question so difficult to answer. It leads one to question what was really different in the two eras, considering that in the D-I era, they had exactly the same resources (that is, very little) as in the D-III, and weren't playing substantially better competition for most of those years. Unfortunately, most of the potential answers to those questions do not paint a very rosy picture of Marshall.

 

[Da_Aisijimo_Gou]

well umass just stole the #1 coach on warde's sheet i assume so now where to look?

Down the road, Rand Pecknold may be a potential coaching target for some schools. In the interim, he appears to have used UMess' interest to re-negotiate more Quinnipiac College dinero. , familiarity, and possibly family tops UMess.

 

[freescooter]

The disparity between the success in D-III and the lack thereof in D-I is what makes the Marshall question so difficult to answer. It leads one to question what was really different in the two eras, considering that in the D-I era, they had exactly the same resources (that is, very little) as in the D-III, and weren't playing substantially better competition for most of those years. Unfortunately, most of the potential answers to those questions do not paint a very rosy picture of Marshall.

He's the thing, though. I'm not sure that you can say they didn't play substantially better competition. First off, they added 5-7 non-conference games, mostly against far more established teams. I saw UCONN give UNH all they wanted before losing 3-1 back around 2004. then they went out the next night against a lesser Union squad and got smoked. They just didn't have the players to compete 2 night in a row. Then, while UCONN remained pretty constant in terms of resources, the remaining programs didn't. They added scholarships, and presumably better players. There have been more than a few nights when I've walked out of Freitas thinking that if we had maybe 2 more guys it makes a difference. The other thing is that the "non-resource programs" little by little left the league and were replaced over time with RIT, Air Force, more recently Robert Morris and Niagara. And while none of those are frightening teams they are all superior to Fairfield and Iona.

I always come off as Bruce Marshall's defender, and I'm not really. I'm decidedly mixed in my overall assessment. But I do think that you need to be realistic in assessing his D1 record. He has virtually no chance of coming out of the early non-conference season with a winning record. His teams need to play perfect hockey almost all the time to win in the conference. And then he's had occassional bad luck. the 2007 team was a nice hockey club with a real shot at winning the NCAA bid. Tim Olsen was the league Player of the Year and had been remarkable over the 2nd half of the season. Seemed like he got late gamers in every game...First period of the semis, he got hit and broke his arm, and UCONN's hopes went with him. The other thing is that a non-scholarship program is going to have morte ups and downs than the average one. Players are more likely to leave, its harder to line up key guys consistently and you don't have the same depth.

 

[kingdobbs]

He's the thing, though. I'm not sure that you can say they didn't play substantially better competition. First off, they added 5-7 non-conference games, mostly against far more established teams. I saw UCONN give UNH all they wanted before losing 3-1 back around 2004. then they went out the next night against a lesser Union squad and got smoked. They just didn't have the players to compete 2 night in a row. Then, while UCONN remained pretty constant in terms of resources, the remaining programs didn't. They added scholarships, and presumably better players. There have been more than a few nights when I've walked out of Freitas thinking that if we had maybe 2 more guys it makes a difference. The other thing is that the "non-resource programs" little by little left the league and were replaced over time with RIT, Air Force, more recently Robert Morris and Niagara. And while none of those are frightening teams they are all superior to Fairfield and Iona.

OK, sure, this I will grant. Call it more than a dozen years of frustration in stagnation.

That being said, I think we saw a modest amount of improvement up until about 2005-06 or so, and then sadly, regression (or, perhaps, regression relative to others' progression). The last two years have perked up somewhat, though, so I'm excited to see what happens with a few rides under his belt as well.

I always come off as Bruce Marshall's defender, and I'm not really. I'm decidedly mixed in my overall assessment. But I do think that you need to be realistic in assessing his D1 record. He has virtually no chance of coming out of the early non-conference season with a winning record. His teams need to play perfect hockey almost all the time to win in the conference. And then he's had occassional bad luck. the 2007 team was a nice hockey club with a real shot at winning the NCAA bid. Tim Olsen was the league Player of the Year and had been remarkable over the 2nd half of the season. Seemed like he got late gamers in every game...First period of the semis, he got hit and broke his arm, and UCONN's hopes went with him. The other thing is that a non-scholarship program is going to have morte ups and downs than the average one. Players are more likely to leave, its harder to line up key guys consistently and you don't have the same depth.

I've never thought myself a Marshall apologist either, but I do have to wonder how much of the results were really based on factors he couldn't control sometimes. I'm willing to believe that if he's given equal resources to his competition, based on his D-III record, he can do great things, but the D-I era doesn't leave me with a lot of confidence. I think it's one thing to be out of your league all the time, and another to resign yourself to that fact (and I'm not unconvinced that the latter didn't happen to Marshall).

 

[freescooter]

kingdobbs,
I am inlcined to agree with you on the "resigned yourself" thing and that is and has been my concern for a while. It is why I say I have a mixed view of him. On the other hand, I guess I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, at least a bit, that the new circumstances will give him a boost...maybe not the benefit of the doubt, that's too much, but willing to grant the possibility, at least in the short term.