OT: Greatest BB Team of All Time - 1985-86 Celtics

[diggerfoot]

I can count only 5, DT, Sue, Swin Cash, Svet and Asjha Jones unless there are 1 in the men's team.

You are correct. Schumacher played for Team USA but not actually in the Olympics. My bad.

 

[Cuango]

No argument here!

 

[hoophuskee]

I wasn't alive in the 70s. Does anyone know why NBA guys never talk about the 70s? Seemed like traditional powers like the Lakers, Celtics, and Sixers were in decline and rose up a bunch of unfamiliar faces that nobody wanted to watch anymore. Don't hear anyone talk about the championships that the Sonics, Warriors, or Trailblazers won in the 70s. Add the rise in drug use and the disco culture at the time gave NBA a bad look?

I was 5 when Bird won that epic series vs the Lakers in '84, and I was a Bird and Celtics fan first. Just wondering because after Jordan retired, the NBA was full of those strange, unfamiliar new faces and it didn't feel the same anymore. I liked O'Neal, but I preferred him in Orlando and this Kobe Bryant dude seemed like a Jordan copycat. Kinda fell asleep from the NBA ever since 1998. I watched it, liked a few teams but I was never able to regain the type of interest I had during the 15 year stretch from the peak of Bird thru Jordan. (84-98)

In regards to the 70's-

IMO Bird and Magic brought back the NBA. I don't think it was thought of as being that popular (or declining popularity) before they came aboard. And Magic and Bird didn't come in until 79-80. Don't think those champions other than Alcindor/Jabbar had a prime top 10 type of super elite players after 72-73 until Bird and Magic came. Bill Walton should've been the next big multi-year superstar. The prime NBA potential multi-year superstar to lead NBA against Jabbar so we could get classic matchups year over year - but Walton got hurt at the time he started becoming super from the 1 prior year.

Also- because the ABA also had some damn good talent and as a result took away from potential great NBA teams.. Two guys in particular - Julius Erving and Rick Barry.. Rick Barry at 22 years old was the lead player for the NBA -Golden State Warriors averaging over 35 per game and led his team in finals only to lose to the awesome 66-67 Sixers led by Wilt. After that Barry went to ABA.

And as for DR J he was off-the-charts in the mid-70's in ABA. The in his 1st year in NBA he got his team to finals. The problem was his secondary player- George McGinnis fell apart in the playoffs for 2 straight years.

 

[SimpleDawg]

In regards to the 70's-

IMO Bird and Magic brought back the NBA. I don't think it was thought of as being that popular (or declining popularity) before they came aboard. And Magic and Bird didn't come in until 79-80. Don't think those champions other than Alcindor/Jabbar had a prime top 10 type of super elite players after 72-73 until Bird and Magic came. Bill Walton should've been the next big multi-year superstar. The prime NBA potential multi-year superstar to lead NBA against Jabbar so we could get classic matchups year over year - but Walton got hurt at the time he started becoming super from the 1 prior year.

Also- because the ABA also had some damn good talent and as a result took away from potential great NBA teams.. Two guys in particular - Julius Erving and Rick Barry.. Rick Barry at 22 years old was the lead player for the NBA -Golden State Warriors averaging over 35 per game and led his team in finals only to lose to the awesome 66-67 Sixers led by Wilt. After that Barry went to ABA.

And as for DR J he was off-the-charts in the mid-70's in ABA. The in his 1st year in NBA he got his team to finals. The problem was his secondary player- George McGinnis fell apart in the playoffs for 2 straight years.

Good stuff. And yeah.... superstars might've made a difference, as the NBA is historically hinged on superstars. ABA... lol sounds a lot like ABBA.... who by coincidence must've been popular at the same time.

And when Wilt and Oscar retired (two of the faces the NBA must've marketed off the most), a lot of NBA fans probably retired with them.

Magic and Bird really did revolutionize the new NBA among young people. Jordan was on the rise but of course his team was not that good, got better later, but only became championship caliber in the 90s.

 

[stormsurge]

re: 70s. It didn't help tv ratings that not the biggest market teams like Washington and Seattle faced off in the finals in 1978 and 1979.

Back then ratings became so poor that CBS broadcast the finals on a tape delay basis starting at 11:30PM EST.

 

[stormsurge]

Lot of great choices here.

One team that I felt gets overlooked was the 1982-3 76er team with Moses Malone and Dr. J. They lost only one game in the playoffs Brilliantly balanced.

Other really good teams to add to the mix: the second Piston championship team that defended their title and the Spurs team that got revenge on the Heat after losing the year before

 

[SimpleDawg]

Lot of great choices here.

One team that I felt gets overlooked was the 1982-3 76er team with Moses Malone and Dr. J. They lost only one game in the playoffs Brilliantly balanced.

Other really good teams to add to the mix: the second Piston championship team that defended their title and the Spurs team that got revenge on the Heat after losing the year before

If I had to choose one team that I really liked after Jordan, it's probably the 2014 Spurs. Popovich was a magician, and they played some of the most efficient team basketball... and that roster had a really deep bench. I always thought they should've won the previous year as well, but lost on a heartbreaker to fellow UConn Husky Ray Allen's 3 pointer.

 

[UcMiami]

Any college team has 4 future Olympians before?

FYI it is five Olympians - Breanna, Kia, Gabby, Napheesa, and Lou, and that ties the 2001 Uconn team with Sue, DT Swin, Asjha, and Sveta.

 

[Phillyconn]

The 82-83 Sixers were unstoppable. Should be in the top 5. Malone, Toney, Erving, Cheeks and Jones. 4-5-4, en route to a Championship. Enough said!

 

[ConwayGmck]

McHale broke his foot that year and Walton was hurt also....Celts were not nearly as strong as the previous year.

McHale dealt with injuries for both 1985-86 and 1986-87. For 85-86, he only played 68 regular-season games due to an achilles tendon, but played all 18 playoff games (Boston went 15-3 through the playoffs), and led the Celtics in scoring against the Houston Rockets on way to the NBA Championship (25.8 ppg and 8.6 rpg).

In 1986-87, it was the other way around. McHale was healthy and played through most all of the season, playing and starting 77 games. He had easily his best season as a Celtic, averaging a career highs in 26.1 ppg, 9.9 rpg, and 39.7 mpg. Also tied his best FG % of .604. But he broke his navicular bone in his right foot against the Bulls on March 27th, and was advised by the team doctors to immediately get surgery and shut down the season, but ignored their recommendations and played on the injury (he still played 44 minutes in that Bulls game, shooting 10-15 for 21 pts and 7 rebs).

McHale played every game of that playoffs too, starting all but 2 of them, and averaged 21.1 ppg and 9.2 rpg.

The reason why the Celtics lost were a number of issues, some that you touched on. In 1985-86 the Celtics were so strong due to their overall depth. For years their starting unit was strong simply due to their Big Three of Bird, Parrish, and McHale - at times in the past they had strong benches and weak benches.

In 85-86 they had a reserve group they called their "Green Team", that mostly consisted of Bill Walton, Scott Wedman, and Jerry Sichting as the main core, but also had Rick Carlisle, and Sam Vincent too. In early years, the Celtics rotated Tiny Archibald and Gerald Henderson, Chris Ford and ML Carr, Larry Bird and Cedric Maxwell, and Parrish with former Kentucky star Rick Robey. Players got old and retired or moved on to other teams: Robey for Dennis Johnson, Henderson traded for the #1 draft pick that would be used for Len Bias, and Maxwell traded for Walton.

Then Wedman came in for either Bird or McHale, Walton or Greg Kite came in for Parrish, Carlisle came in for Ainge and Sichting came in for DJ. And the offensive pace rarely fell off for the lesser minutes the reserves played. Walton was a former NBA MVP, Sicting and Wedman were former starters for previous teams and efficient long-range shooters.

So what happened in 1986-87?? Yes, there were injuries: McHale was hobbled during the playoffs, but it didn't really impact him heavily in production. Parrish dealt with BOTH ankles sprained. Walton missed all but 10 regular-season games, but started the postseason strong until the Milwaukee series in the Eastern Conference semifinals. He only played in one game of the Detroit Pistons conference finals, and then only 1 minute. By the Finals with the Lakers, he was almost non-existent.

But that wasn't all of it. The Milwaukee series was a brutal one for the Celtics. Danny Ainge suffered a major quadricep bruise, and wore a leg brace/sleeve for the rest of the playoffs, and was hobbled. Wedman only played 6 games of the season due to bone spurs that needed surgery.

So, in summary, most of the team was beaten down by the time of the playoffs in 1986-87. And THEN, came the playoffs:

The first round was easy - a 3-game sweep of the Michael Jordan Bulls. But then a very physical, heated 7-game series against the Bucks, and THEN an even MORE physical, heated 7-game series against the Pistons. And the Celtics had to navigate this with little of their great bench remaining to help them.

By the time the Finals came up, the Lakers were smelling fresh blood in the waters. By comparison, they breezed through their playoffs: a 3-game sweep of the Denver Nuggets, a 4-1 win over the Golden State Warriors, and then a 4-game sweep of the Seattle SuperSonics. They were rested and waiting for the Celtics, watching their games on TV at home.

At times in several of the games of the Finals, it looked like the Celtics were just gassed, and couldn't stop the Lakers' fast-break offense. Couldn't even keep up with them. They were done....

 

[JJTB]

Always loved watching the Knicks in late 60's-early 70's. Frazier, Bradley, DeBusschere, Reed, Barnett were a real "team." Great times watching Sunday double headers on ABC in black and white.

 

[hoophuskee]

So what happened in 1986-87?? Yes, there were injuries: McHale was hobbled during the playoffs, but it didn't really impact him heavily in production. Parrish dealt with BOTH ankles sprained. Walton missed all but 10 regular-season games, but started the postseason strong until the Milwaukee series in the Eastern Conference semifinals. He only played in one game of the Detroit Pistons conference finals, and then only 1 minute. By the Finals with the Lakers, he was almost non-existent.

But that wasn't all of it. The Milwaukee series was a brutal one for the Celtics. Danny Ainge suffered a major quadricep bruise, and wore a leg brace/sleeve for the rest of the playoffs, and was hobbled. Wedman only played 6 games of the season due to bone spurs that needed surgery.

So, in summary, most of the team was beaten down by the time of the playoffs in 1986-87. And THEN, came the playoffs:

The first round was easy - a 3-game sweep of the Michael Jordan Bulls. But then a very physical, heated 7-game series against the Bucks, and THEN an even MORE physical, heated 7-game series against the Pistons. And the Celtics had to navigate this with little of their great bench remaining to help them.

By the time the Finals came up, the Lakers were smelling fresh blood in the waters. By comparison, they breezed through their playoffs: a 3-game sweep of the Denver Nuggets, a 4-1 win over the Golden State Warriors, and then a 4-game sweep of the Seattle SuperSonics. They were rested and waiting for the Celtics, watching their games on TV at home.

At times in several of the games of the Finals, it looked like the Celtics were just gassed, and couldn't stop the Lakers' fast-break offense. Couldn't even keep up with them. They were done....

Walton only played in 10 regular season games in 86-87. I also felt that vs most teams down the stretch of 85-86 that the team played better with Walton than with Parish. Walton was a major factor imo. He got 6th man of the year for a reason in 85-86 - he was damn good that season as the season wore on. But as you say they were worn down.

In 85-86 Parish played 2567 minutes. In 86-87 he played 2995.
In 85-86 McHale played 2397 minutes. In 86-87 he played 3060.
in 85-86 Walton played 1546 minutes. In 86-87 he played 112.
You can even throw Wedman in there-
In 85-86 Wedman played 1402 minutes. In 86-87 he played 38.

These minutes then force Dennis Johnson to play more - not a lot overall but more.
In 85-86 played 2732. In 86-87 he played 2933.

All these minutes add up for an older team. So while Bird played more minutes in 85-86 - he played/started in 81 games averaging 38 minutes.
In 86-87 he started in 73 (must've been hurt). And he averaged 40.6
DJ also averaged more minutes per game. And ofc Parish and McHale did too.

I believe the points we are both making is that the 86-87 team was not the same team as 85-86.

 

[JordyG]

Always loved watching the Knicks in late 60's-early 70's. Frazier, Bradley, DeBusschere, Reed, Barnett were a real "team." Great times watching Sunday double headers on ABC in black and white.

My poor aching heart.

 

[SVCBeercats]

No argument from me, these guys, during that year, would have beaten anybody:

11× NBA champion (1957, 1959–1966, 1968, 1969)
I think anyone of these above teams would give the 1986 Celtics a run for their money.

 

[Scoe]

11× NBA champion (1957, 1959–1966, 1968, 1969)
I think anyone of these above teams would give the 1986 Celtics a run for their money.

Let’s find out Whatifsports: Free Online Simulation Games and SIM Matchup

Have a best of 7 series better record gets home court do the 2-2-1-1-1 format.

 

[stormsurge]

I'll give you one very good reason why the 86-87 Celtics could have been as good as the preceding year or EVEN BETTER but weren't:

LEN BIAS