Discouraging, But you Never Can Tell... | Page 6 | The Boneyard

Discouraging, But you Never Can Tell...

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The way I understand it is PSU is the bridge to the promised land? Funny how an ACC fan would see it that way!?! L'ville is not a bridge to anything or where but L'ville but thats just MO. As usual though stimp knows just how to conclude smoothly pandering to take a the edge off with a "friendly" pat ? Are you in the Diplomatic corps? No rough edges to bstimp but how much depth? Thanks for not flaming or at least not intentionally.

Bridge to the promised land? Ok. Maybe that's what he meant certainly if the promised land will bail them out from their misery and opression. Or perhaps route to the colonies. Could also be the intention.
 

ConnHuskBask

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Is there a way that UConn could join the Big10 as a full athletic and academic member but as a partial revenue member?

Just thinking outside the box, say UConn being added pushes up cable fees enough to increase revenue for all members but we only take in a 1/3 share?

I think we'd be years from competing in football with the top programs anyway, but at least we'd have a packed house and basketball would be tremendous too.

So with taking a partial revenue we still pull in more than the AAC and attendance would increase as well as exposure.

Is that even possible?
 
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Is there a way that UConn could join the Big10 as a full athletic and academic member but as a partial revenue member?

Just thinking outside the box, say UConn being added pushes up cable fees enough to increase revenue for all members but we only take in a 1/3 share?

I think we'd be years from competing in football with the top programs anyway, but at least we'd have a packed house and basketball would be tremendous too.

So with taking a partial revenue we still pull in more than the AAC and attendance would increase as well as exposure.

Is that even possible?

There is an article posted in the thread about Nebraska talking about how they are not receiving a full share yet and it has been said that RU will not receive a full share for 6 years so the B1G already has this policy in place.

MD is being treated different since they are leaving a solid conference and will be dealing with a large exit fee (somewhere between $20-$52MM) and will receive a greater share up front.
 
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Yes to both questions. Not only that, but there has always been lots of bad blood between Michigan and ND. Michigan tried to blackball ND. It refused to play ND from about 1910 until 1941 and from 1943 until 1978.

Michigan tried to convince Purdue and Michigan State to refuse to play ND decades ago, to no avail.

ND boosters are almost 100% in their dislike for all things Big Ten. Most ND alumni and fans are against football conference membership, period, forever.

If, and only if, ND cannot legally compete for national championship contention will the Irish ever join a football conference in full.

It is not based on "greed". Hell, ND could make more money in the Big Ten. It is based upon tradition, identity and status.

ND has never played football in a conference in 127 seasons. It considers itself the national, Catholic university and uses the football team to market the school that way.

With five games against ACC schools (which covers the Southeast for recruiting), ND still has scheduling control over seven games a year to play two West Coast schools (one in California every year for recruiting), a couple of games in the Southwest (Texas, Oklahoma, Shamrock Series games in Dallas and San Antonio), a few games in the Northeast in pro stadiums (Navy, Temple) and still cover the Midwest with six home games.


The fact that Purdue and Michigan State continued to play us after Michigan tried to force them to drop us from their schedule is why we dropped Michigan before we dropped Purdue and Michigan State.
 
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Yes Mds got a frontloaded deal for financial reason's but in the long run it all evens out as it's sort of a loan.There's a thread about that on RU's ri als site I went through today! I'd hadn't realized how bad MDs athletic dept was failing financially being in such a power conference?I believe RU recieves 50% in yr 1 rising 10% yrly untill in yr 6 they receive a full share?
 
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A few thoughts:

(1) GORs *might* be breakable in theory. I can provide several hypothetical legal arguments to break them. However, in practicality no one that matters WANTS to challenge them (and it's a huge grey area at best as whether a challenger would ever win). It always puzzles me whenever I see comments that the Big Ten would be the conference to try to break the GOR agreements when that conference INVENTED them for college sports rights purposes. They first put a GOR into place back in the 1980s - over 20 years before any other conference figured out their value. Believe me - Jim Delany and the Big Ten want those GORs to hold up.

(2) The reason why GORs are powerful is that if a school leaves a conference with a GOR, that conference retains such school's home TV rights AND the school will no longer receive a dime from that conference. That means that the poaching conference effectively only gets the rights to that school's road games and, as such, the new conference isn't going to pay the school a full share for that. So, if the school doesn't get paid for its home games from its old conference and it's not getting a full share from its new conference, there's no way that they're going to move (at least between P5 conferences). Once again, seeing that 4 of the P5 leagues have GORs (including the Big Ten and ACC), no one wants to challenge them in practicality even if there are possible legal arguments against them.

(3) The Big Ten isn't going to have an odd number of football members with the current NCAA rules for conference championship games. The pre-conference championship game odd number of members at 11 is irrelevant. Now, if the NCAA rules change where you don't need divisions for conference championship games, then that provides a bit more flexibility to have an odd number of members.

(4) It's pretty safe to state that each new school that comes to the Big Ten needs to generate at least $40 million in conference-level revenue annually just to break even... and no one expands with the intent to just break even. I don't know if $100 million per school in additional revenue is required, but it's certainly reasonable to believe that the Big Ten would be seeking $100 million total from 2 schools being added.

(5) Very few realignment decisions are as easy as "Adding School A means delivering X number of cable households at Y dollars". If making money was that clear cut and easy, then it would have been done already. The thing to remember is that it's NOT that clear for leagues with conference networks outside of schools like Texas and Notre Dame. Rutgers, for instance, is a major risk for the Big Ten. Depending upon how you view it, if they aren't successful in getting solid BTN carriage in at least New Jersey, that could sour the Big Ten's view on the NYC market completely. (Maryland is much less of a risk, regardless of what the ACC partisans will try to argue, which is why, not surprisingly, they got a much better deal upon joining the B1G.)

(6) Further to the last point, the NYC market may end up being TV fool's gold for everyone in college athletics. Even if a league were able to combine Penn State, Notre Dame, Rutgers, Syracuse, UConn, Michigan, Ohio State, BC and Miami all in the same conference, that would STILL not guarantee basic coverage in the NYC market. The main thing that the Big Ten can really bank on with the Rutgers addition is that it's a very good football recruiting region for the North and "normal" student recruiting area for people that are willing to pay out-of-state tuition (see the fairly high matriculation of NJ residents at places like Michigan, Wisconsin and Indiana considering the distance, much less closer locales like Penn State and Maryland), which is how public universities across the country need to increasingly be funded.

(7) As much as it pains me, I agree with Terry D regarding Notre Dame. From the Big Ten perspective, the only thing worse than ND refusing to join the Big Ten is too see them actually joining the ACC (or anyone else) as a full member. As a result, ND will not be "forced" into a conference by outside forces, *especially* now when it has an agreement with the ACC. Even the SEC isn't interested in seeing the ACC strengthen itself with a full member ND - that move could get the ACC up to the Big Ten/SEC-level in terms of revenue and the SEC would be negatively impacted with that strong of a league that they directly compete against in their region. Everyone wants ND to join their *own* conference, but they have no interest in seeing ND joining a different conference outside of their own.

So, they'd rather have ND be "Switzerland" and maintain the status quo as an independent than to force them to do anything. Just look at how much deference all of the P5 conferences gave to ND over the past couple of years regarding the CFP playoff and related issues. Who did they choose to make the CFP announcement? ND AD Jack Swarbrick. When the Big Ten and Pac-12 were working on a scheduling alliance (which eventually fell through), they told NO ONE about it before it was announced... except for ND. When the Big 12 and SEC were working on their Champions Bowl (which was eventually awarded to the Sugar Bowl), they also told NO ONE about it before it was announced... except for ND. Make no mistake about it: ND is in with in crowd and always will be (whether it's out of friendship, fear or straight up business).
 
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I think that you are right, Nicky.

Louisville was not brought in as a bridge to anywhere...that was not a selling point.

They did fulfill an ACC need...and it didn't hurt that ESPN probably blessed the addition because they are a top metered market for ESPN.

Louisville was brought in because they have a highly successful athletic department, their Athletic Director really used his contacts to make sure that all the ACC members voting knew that, and their President made sure all the ACC members knew the positive trajectory of his university academically or at least enough to overcome the academic objection. It didn't hurt that Louisville had been performing well in football and basketball. Their winning the basketball national championship and the sugar bowl after the vote helped make the decision look good from a performance standpoint in the revenue sports.

And no they are not intended to be a bridge to anywhere and weren't viewed as one.
 

ConnHuskBask

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So, freakin' Nebraska has to take a reduced share of revenue upon joining the B1G, yet Tulane, Tulsa and ECU can join the AAC as not only full members but get a portion of our buyout money from Rutgers?

What world do we live in?

Also - I want to apologize to Boneyarders for constantly ranting about Tulane and Tulsa...I can't get over it, but I'll try not tobring it up again.
 
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ND made it crystal clear from the beginning to the Big East that football would never be included. The conference voted them in, anyway.

In contrast to the Big East, ND agreed contractually to play five ACC schools per year in football. The ACC is where ND wants to be.

That conference stretches from Boston to Miami, which is where ND's fans and alumni largely reside. Likewise, ND hockey moved to the Hockey East Conference.

Not only geographically, but the ACC also has a number of smaller, private schools. That makes the ACC a better fit than the Big Ten with its large, state land grant universities (except for Northwestern).

Finally, ND has been concentrating its football recruiting in places like the Virginia Tidewater, North Carolina, Georgia and South Carolina. ACC membership helps that effort.
Did NDFB have any reasonable option's other than the ACC that made sense to hang on to that independence? btw,ND ALWAYS seems to recruit heavily in NJ but you neglect to mention that!?! They've burnt RU alot since Schiano left.
 
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Did NDFB have any reasonable option's other than the ACC that made sense to hang on to that independence? btw,ND ALWAYS seems to recruit heavily in NJ but you neglect to mention that!?! They've burnt RU alot since Schiano left.

They could have joined the Big 12 as a partial member. Jack Swarbrick and Texas AD Deloss Dodds were in talks about that before ND pulled the ACC trigger.

It would not have been a great solution, but ND could have joined the new Big East (C7)for sports other than football and hockey and remained a full independent in football.

That would not have been nearly as optimal (minor bowl bids, scheduling) as a partial membership in the ACC or Big 12, but still may have been perceived as a "better" option by ND than being "forced" into full conference membership in the ACC, Big 12 or Big Ten.
 
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They could have joined the Big 12 as a partial member. Jack Swarbrick and Texas AD Deloss Dodds were in talks about that before ND pulled the ACC trigger.

It would not have been a great solution, but ND could have joined the new Big East (C7)for sports other than football and hockey and remained a full independent in football.

That would not have been nearly as optimal (minor bowl bids, scheduling) as a partial membership in the ACC or Big 12, but still may have been perceived as a "better" option by ND than being "forced" into full conference membership in the ACC, Big 12 or Big Ten.

Yes, ND will take partial membership in any power conference or the Big East before they would take a full membership in any power conference.

Unless you work and deal with Domers daily (like I have to do), they are beyond nutty about this subject that I don't think many other college football fans seem to understand. Most college football fans seem to think that ND's independence is just about money, which isn't true. They'd make more money by being an equal member of the Big Ten. However, their entire institutional identity is somehow wrapped up in the concept of independence - it's something that's purposefully beaten into their heads from day 1 of freshman orientation there.

In about 99.9% of stereotypes of that people have of other fan bases, we tend to greatly exaggerate. For the most part, your rival's a*shole fans are the same as your own a*shole fans, except that they just attended different schools. However, Domers are a legitimately different breed altogether. They are even crazier about the issue of independence than most college football fans realize - take whatever stereotype that you have of ND fans and then *increase* the crazy/stubborn/one-mindedness/groupthink level by 20%.
 
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"3) The Big Ten isn't going to have an odd number of football members with the current NCAA rules for conference championship games. The pre-conference championship game odd number of members at 11 is irrelevant. Now, if the NCAA rules change where you don't need divisions for conference championship games, then that provides a bit more flexibility to have an odd number of members."

So in your opinion Frank, is that Uconn's best bet on a near-term offer to join either the ACC or B1G?
 
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Yes, ND will take partial membership in any power conference or the Big East before they would take a full membership in any power conference.

Unless you work and deal with Domers daily (like I have to do), they are beyond nutty about this subject that I don't think many other college football fans seem to understand. Most college football fans seem to think that ND's independence is just about money, which isn't true. They'd make more money by being an equal member of the Big Ten. However, their entire institutional identity is somehow wrapped up in the concept of independence - it's something that's purposefully beaten into their heads from day 1 of freshman orientation there.

In about 99.9% of stereotypes of that people have of other fan bases, we tend to greatly exaggerate. For the most part, your rival's a*shole fans are the same as your own a*shole fans, except that they just attended different schools. However, Domers are a legitimately different breed altogether. They are even crazier about the issue of independence than most college football fans realize - take whatever stereotype that you have of ND fans and then *increase* the crazy/stubborn/one-mindedness/groupthink level by 20%.

I work for UCONN and interact with our exchange/abroad/international students on a daily basis. Year after year, we have a good amount of English and Irish students. From what I've heard, most of the actual Irish (those who know what Notre Dame is) are not fans of Notre Dame or their fan-base either. In fact, I've been told that many people actually born and living in Ireland find them offensive with their "Irish stereotypes," unlike-ability, and unfortunate mascot.
 
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Yes, ND will take partial membership in any power conference or the Big East before they would take a full membership in any power conference.

Unless you work and deal with Domers daily (like I have to do), they are beyond nutty about this subject that I don't think many other college football fans seem to understand. Most college football fans seem to think that ND's independence is just about money, which isn't true. They'd make more money by being an equal member of the Big Ten. However, their entire institutional identity is somehow wrapped up in the concept of independence - it's something that's purposefully beaten into their heads from day 1 of freshman orientation there.

In about 99.9% of stereotypes of that people have of other fan bases, we tend to greatly exaggerate. For the most part, your rival's a*shole fans are the same as your own a*shole fans, except that they just attended different schools. However, Domers are a legitimately different breed altogether. They are even crazier about the issue of independence than most college football fans realize - take whatever stereotype that you have of ND fans and then *increase* the crazy/stubborn/one-mindedness/groupthink level by 20%.
Since you've been visiting the BY I decided to check out you're blog which I find very interesting on all things B1G related and civilized for the most part. Before the B1G was in the NE I had very little interest in the B10 schools but I read it alot now !!
 
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"3) The Big Ten isn't going to have an odd number of football members with the current NCAA rules for conference championship games. The pre-conference championship game odd number of members at 11 is irrelevant. Now, if the NCAA rules change where you don't need divisions for conference championship games, then that provides a bit more flexibility to have an odd number of members."

So in your opinion Frank, is that Uconn's best bet on a near-term offer to join either the ACC or B1G?

If either the ACC or Big Ten were to say, "We *have* to expand now and it can't be someone in a GOR league," then yes, UConn is the best available for both of those leagues. The answer would be different for the Big 12, where Cincinnati is better positioned (if only because of location).

The main issues are that (a) the Big 12 is the league that's more likely to decide to expand in the near-term because they need further depth, more markets and better geographic continuity (no matter what the Texas partisans might try to say) and (b) the ACC and Big Ten are in positions where they don't really have to expand now and may just wait until a time when there are more options (i.e. when the Big 12 GOR runs out).

If I were running UConn, you've got to sell yourselves to the Big 12 hard right now. It's honestly a tough one because of the geography, but try to make a "We're not really that far from WVU" type of argument or push for a larger 4-team expansion (let's say, Cincinnati, UConn, UCF and USF or, if we really want to get crazy, throw in a Temple/Memphis/Tulane-type). The Big 12 is simply the most likely buyer right now and frankly, if UConn's ultimate desire is to be in the Big Ten or ACC and those leagues truly have UConn in their plans, then the Big 12 trying to grab them is probably the only thing that will move the B1G or ACC to act in the short-term. Being in any P5 league is still the main goal - if the B1G or ACC want you later on, then already being in the Big 12 is more of a benefit than a hindrance in terms of selling your attributes. The worst thing that you can let happen is have the AAC get raided by the Big 12 (i.e. Cincinnati plus a UCF-type) with UConn left behind. That has to be avoided at all costs.
 
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"The worst thing that you can let happen is have the AAC get raided by the Big 12 (i.e. Cincinnati plus a UCF-type) with UConn left behind. That has to be avoided at all costs."

Fully agree on this point.
The B1G is re-negotiating in 2016 right? Last summer Dennis Dodd had a little tidbit in his column saying to expect more expansion sometime this year to improve their worth come negotiation time. Was he blowing smoke or could that really happen even with the GOR's everywhere?
 
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good stuff Frank, thanks for adding some clarity to such an esoteric process.
 
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I work for UCONN and interact with our exchange/abroad/international students on a daily basis. Year after year, we have a good amount of English and Irish students. From what I've heard, most of the actual Irish (those who know what Notre Dame is) are not fans of Notre Dame or their fan-base either. In fact, I've been told that many people actually born and living in Ireland find them offensive with their "Irish stereotypes," unlike-ability, and unfortunate mascot.
My mom's 7/8 Irish catholic(dad was Scots/Manx) and her generation was raised on them and the fight song but most of there followers are more American than Irish but I guess it was something they could hang onto when their was anti-catholic(WASP-Klan) sentiment all around to make them feel good about themselves? As a youngster I found myself rooting for them and depending on who they play still will. ND is more an American than Irish phoenom?
 
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My mom's 7/8 Irish catholic(dad was Scots/Manx) and her generation was raised on them and the fight song but most of there followers are more American than Irish but I guess it was something they could hang onto when their was anti-catholic(WASP-Klan) sentiment all around to make them feel good about themselves? As a youngster I found myself rooting for them and depending on who they play still will. ND is more an American than Irish phoenom?

Ya , it definitely seems to be an Irish-American thing - a very passionate fan-base here in America. I just found it really interesting how the born-and-raised Irish felt about it all.
 
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I work for UCONN and interact with our exchange/abroad/international students on a daily basis. Year after year, we have a good amount of English and Irish students. From what I've heard, most of the actual Irish (those who know what Notre Dame is) are not fans of Notre Dame or their fan-base either. In fact, I've been told that many people actually born and living in Ireland find them offensive with their "Irish stereotypes," unlike-ability, and unfortunate mascot.


I am a dual citizen of the USA and the Republic of Ireland. Most Irish find the whole idea of American football as something a bit silly and sissified.

The prefer Gaelic football and rugby, both played without helmets or pads of any type.

Most Irish really know little or care little about American football, period.
 
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If either the ACC or Big Ten were to say, "We *have* to expand now and it can't be someone in a GOR league," then yes, UConn is the best available for both of those leagues. The answer would be different for the Big 12, where Cincinnati is better positioned (if only because of location).

The main issues are that (a) the Big 12 is the league that's more likely to decide to expand in the near-term because they need further depth, more markets and better geographic continuity (no matter what the Texas partisans might try to say) and (b) the ACC and Big Ten are in positions where they don't really have to expand now and may just wait until a time when there are more options (i.e. when the Big 12 GOR runs out).

If I were running UConn, you've got to sell yourselves to the Big 12 hard right now. It's honestly a tough one because of the geography, but try to make a "We're not really that far from WVU" type of argument or push for a larger 4-team expansion (let's say, Cincinnati, UConn, UCF and USF or, if we really want to get crazy, throw in a Temple/Memphis/Tulane-type). The Big 12 is simply the most likely buyer right now and frankly, if UConn's ultimate desire is to be in the Big Ten or ACC and those leagues truly have UConn in their plans, then the Big 12 trying to grab them is probably the only thing that will move the B1G or ACC to act in the short-term. Being in any P5 league is still the main goal - if the B1G or ACC want you later on, then already being in the Big 12 is more of a benefit than a hindrance in terms of selling your attributes. The worst thing that you can let happen is have the AAC get raided by the Big 12 (i.e. Cincinnati plus a UCF-type) with UConn left behind. That has to be avoided at all costs.

We really are far from WVU
 

CL82

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A few thoughts:


(6) Further to the last point, the NYC market may end up being TV fool's gold for everyone in college athletics. Even if a league were able to combine Penn State, Notre Dame, Rutgers, Syracuse, UConn, Michigan, Ohio State, BC and Miami all in the same conference, that would STILL not guarantee basic coverage in the NYC market. The main thing that the Big Ten can really bank on with the Rutgers addition is that it's a very good football recruiting region for the North and "normal" student recruiting area for people that are willing to pay out-of-state tuition (see the fairly high matriculation of NJ residents at places like Michigan, Wisconsin and Indiana considering the distance, much less closer locales like Penn State and Maryland), which is how public universities across the country need to increasingly be funded.

Unless of course winning "the NYC market" actually means taking advantage of the population density in the NYC DMA for carriage fees. I am confident that Delaney didn't think that RU was making Manhattan tune into RU games. I am equally confident that that he understood just how densely populated North Jersey is. That's what he acquired.

Likewise, Connecticut's chunk of the NYC DMA isn't speculative. It goes to carriage fees associated with the relatively densely populated Fairfield County, plus the New Haven, Hartford DMA, plus the remainder of the state. While getting dense viewership in NYC might well be "fool's gold" (at least relative to pro sports viewing) calculating the value of the carriage fees in the surrounding states included in that market is a relatively easy thing to do.

Does it make more sense that the B1G acquired RU for NJ recruits that its teams can have just by asking or is it simply that NJ residents paying a premium for the BTN made RU a financially viable acquisition?
 
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